[Steiner]

I've only played MUDs for a couple years now, on and off. Meanwhile, I also played games like Counter-strike, Operation Flashpoint, and other graphical shooters and strategy games.

Oddly enough, when I relate back to MUDs, there seem to be no realistic MUDs out there what so ever. All Mideval, or Star Wars, any type of Sci-Fi.. sure.. and thats great. But what better spot to have a massive multiplayer game based on historical realism??

Wouldn't you want to experience life as a sailor aboard a pirate vessel in a realistic world where you change the outcome, rather than flying between planets in conquest after space monsters? I admit, when I look into it (and yes, I plan to start my own historically accurate MUD soon), it could and will be hard to do. How do you have an interactive online game based on Vietnam with no graphical shooting? No buying or selling? Improvise. Focus the game more on the combat role and life in the day of a soldier or a pilot in Vietnam, rather than the life of an independent individual.

I think the main fact I am trying to get accross is... we have had an interesting history on this planet. From the Middle Ages all the way through the 21st century. Why not relive those moments? No magic, no spaceships, no flying monkeys, just real life conflict.

Tell me what you think!

[Shao_Long]

Actually,this might look fun but I dont think its a good idea..

If you would put so much effort you want to put into this historical game into a 'normal' magical fantasy mud,you would get much better results,that i promise.It is actually possible to make 'realistic' game with magic and dragons and stuff,and it would be really fun.

well,at least thats my opinion

[KaVir]

There is a mud based on historical Rome, and another I recall reading about some time ago which is/was set in ancient Greece. Using a "real-world" theme is certainly a viable option and could produce a good mud, but most people seem to prefer a fictional setting.

For example, taking your "pirate" mud, you've got the potential for an interesting game. But by adding magic, you would suddenly add a whole new element to the game. By adding monsters and supernatural races, you're vasting increasing the possible character and opponent options. In addition, making up your own setting allows you to "create" history - you don't have to worry about history buffs pointing out loopholes in your theme. Equally, you can add surprises for the players, because it's not possible for them to cheat and read up on what happens where and when.

So in short, while I think your suggestion could provide a fun and interesting mud, you would be losing out on a lot of elements which make muds popular. It's just something you should bare in mind.

[Steiner]

Well, I blame myself for the misunderstanding... but when I meant historically accurate, I basically meant realistic. For example, with a pirate MUD, yes it would have the same ships and such, but the outcome would be decided by the players, not by according to what happened in history. Even research and development would be controlled by the players.

I think the whole point of this idea is to bring a whole different class of Mudders to the field of play. They have PURE PK MUDs out there (as you know KaVir ), so why not have pure killing and such, but with a theme that is realtive.

With magic.. I could create things similar to that, but staying within the realm of history and reality. Doctors for example, would take the place of healing.

The most important part would be the Roleplaying standard however. Doctors wouldnt be fighting as soldiers aboard a battleship, soldiers wouldnt be able to heal themselves in combat. The price that comes with that is obviously giving each class MANY things to do, and giving them support from other classes (which would fit in with the advanced AI Idea I had).

To close out, let me leave with an example. The other idea I had was for a MUD based on Vietnam. ( OH MY GOD WHAT A STUPID IDEA RIGHT?) Not quite. There would be about 5-10 classes, each branched out. Machinegunners would be either Heavy MGs or Light MGs for example. So you select that class, and are dropped into a random firebase (Depending on the amount of bases and such.) The base is already being run by AI (which wouldnt be half as good as the players), so the player must live out the life of the soldier (or pilot ect.) Will the base get attacked? Will he die? Will he be sent on a suicide mission? Everything would be left to chance and skill, fast-paced but exciting. Something you leave talking about.

[Eagleon]

Well, I play muds to escape reality, blah blah blah, violence, blah blah me, yes I know it's been said before, but it's true. I like to see different possibilities of the future, and pretend that magic exists and is readily practiced. If you haven't noticed, we have a big, AOL using, Pop-listening, book-burning world out there, and I'd like to escape it.

[Steiner]

I always thought the pop-listening AOL freaks were the ones that wanted escape from reality? I mean they DO believe that those boy bands aren't really gay. Heh.

Oh well, Vietnam certainly won't be for people that don't like violence.

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by when I meant historically accurate, I basically meant realistic. For example, with a pirate MUD, yes it would have the same ships and such, but the outcome would be decided by the players, not by according to what happened in history.

But what I mean is, the players would all know what had happened (historically) up until that point. There wouldn't really be any surprises, unless the player knew very little about history and had no interest in looking it up. One of the things I like about muds (like fantasy novels) is not knowing about unusual creatures and places until you meet them.

Another problem with historically accurate muds is that they can cause a lot of hard feelings. For example the Vietnam mud you suggested might be found offensive by players who had lost loved ones in Vietnam. Even historical events from a long time ago could cause offense - for example a mud based on the Crusades would no doubt offend a lot of religious people.

[Steiner]

I had thought about the fact that some of the themes of realistic MUDs I had considered had been controversial. Of course, recently I looked over the rules of the MUD "Armageddon" and found it allows roleplaying a rape. That to me is sickening, but it is a free world, at least on the net. The same would apply to any MUD I chose.

People would know what happened in Vietnam up to that point, but it would be starting from scratch. I would get first-person accounts either from a person or from record, to make it as accurate as possible. How many people that play MUDs today were actually in Vietnam? Very few. This to me creates a more exciting world than any fantasy game, because you know what the people in Vietnam had to go through, and you can actually shape the outcome of the war. If anything, it's actually somewhat educational.

These MUDs would be designed for people that want to live a real life experience in a certain time period, and actually change the outcome of history, aswell as learn about the period in time.

One main thing you brought up was the fact that history buffs are going to find loopholes and discrepencies. I expect that, and will counter it by looking over several sources for each piece of large information I put on the MUD. So if 4 sources say the AK-47 was an unreliable weapon, and 1 says it wasn't, I would obviously go with the majority. Of course, someone will come onto the MUD and say "Why is this AK-47 so good? They werent this good!" I expect that, and will deal with it

[Tycho]

One trouble with the idea that I see is the conflict of keeping things 'historical' and allowing players to 'change history.' If players have a strong influence over how things develope in the game (and I think its important that they do) it wont take very long at all before the MU* is related to the original theme only in name. Taking your Vietnam MU* as an example, you'll either have to make it impossible for the characters end the war (severly limiting their ability to influence the game), or face the possiblity that NAMMUD might end up having absolutely nothing to do with the war in Vietnam three weeks after you open it. What happens when one side wins? If you make it impossible for one side to win, and the players know it, they wont have much motivation for fighting.

The thing about history, is that the things we tend to find the most fascinating are brief periods when the outcome is uncertain. Wars, revolutions, conflicts, etc. When MU*ing, however, things tend to wrap themselves up rather quickly, so that these intersting time periods fly by and then your left with the long historical periods of stability.

I'm not saying a historicly themed MU* is impossible, or wouldn't be fun, but I just think that if the players have freedom to change history, they will do so VERY quickly, and the theme won't be historical anymore.

I have nothing against the idea of an MU* with no magic or sci-fi technology (though I think most players wouldn't go for them), but I don't think you should push for historical accuracy to hard. I could see a magicless, pirate themed MU* being fun. Or a jungle combat themed MU* being fun. But I'd suggest leaving them at that, instead of making them historical re-enactments. Good luck with whatever you end up doing, though.

[Molly]

KaVir definitely has a point about why a historically accurate ‘modern’ mud probably would be a somewhat controvarsial idea. Even Word War II, and the Korean war are a bit uncomfortably close in time and the Vietnam War definitely is. The mental wounds have not healed, too many people would be hurt and/or offended. Try to imagine what you’d feel if your father/brother/uncle died in that war. Try even for a moment to imagine the Palestinian or Yugoslavian conflicts as subjects for a mud. Impossible, yes? Well, the psychological problem is the same, even so much more vivid the closer it gets in time.

Otherwise it’s quite possible of course, even using just stock code and snippets. Spells could easily be changed into something more modern and ‘realistic’. You can find a vehicle code, a ranged weapons code and several other snippets, which you could just as well use for tanks, aeroplanes and machineguns, as for carriages and bows and arrows in Medieval times, or spaceships and laser guns in Space Operas. But it would probably be wiser to keep the time distance a bit further from present days. I’d say that World War I or the American Civil War would be about the time limit.

However I don’t really understand the other objections about using real History as the base for a Mud. And I fail to see why it would make things more predictable than in any of the many Medieval, Tolkien or Wheel of Time based muds around. In fact I think that historical or geographical accuracy in the zones and background stories add some spice and flavour to the mud. And several such muds exist. To my knowledge there is a mud set in France during the time of the three Musketeers, and another featuring London in the time of Sherlock Holmes, and most likely there are others like that. In our mud we have an entire Dimension based on ancient Greece and Egypt around 2000 BC, when you generally travelled by ship, and when piracy was an accepted pastime even for the sons of Kings. We use the geography, topology and biology of the Mediterranean countries as basis for it, as well as the authentic history, legends and mythology. It’s quite fun, since the Greek Gods were supposed to wander the earth, interacting with the mortals, and definitely not behaving like any supreme beings. In fact they were a quarrelsome, promiscuous, resentful, envious, violent, passionate lot, usually up to no good. The perfect setting for a RP environment.

However, the general player preference still seems to be Medieval, fantasy based muds. Any poll you make would most likely show that. Possibly some sort of conservatism, since muds developed from the old Dragons and Dungeons roleplay games? Or just a lack of imagination on the side of the creators? I’m not sure which, possibly a mix of both.

[Tavish]

Originally Posted by Possibly some sort of conservatism, since muds developed from the old Dragons and Dungeons roleplay games? Or just a lack of imagination on the side of the creators? I’m not sure which, possibly a mix of both.

Ouch.

Or it could possibly be that the simplist way for both the MUD creators and the players to be involved in a reality-escaping world is to not base the MUD on actual events.

I could understand using a more accurate location for a MUD to be an interesting setting for players, but to try and recreate an actual event seems to lean more towards a historical simulation than a world that devolps around the players actions.

[Shao_Long]

this poll is sure a good idea..though i think i know results even now

[Teelf]

I think you can make a successful game in just about any setting.  If you make the gameplay well enough I don't see why a Vietnam era game can't succeed, as controversial as it might be.  Although I certainly wouldn't call it a "revolution" just a different style of MUD.

The problem I see is what are your players going to do?  To me, a "realistic" day in the life of a vietnam soldier conjurs up images of eating food from a can and trying to fight off jungle rot on my foot.  And no "cure fungus" spell to be found...

The point of such spells in games is to give the players superhuman abilities.  There a very few games I can think of that don't give the player some sort of superhuman power.  Whether it's creating fireballs out of thin air or the ability to be shot 20 times and still live.  I think without this, you will have to be extremely creative in your gameplay.

[nass]

Didn't someone do one set in 1920s Chicago somewhere? I seem to remember reading about it on TMC. Also, there's AoTT (Age of the Throne), a commercial MUD which I believe is set in the France of Louis XIV.

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by Molly wrote: However I don’t really understand the other objections about using real History as the base for a Mud. And I fail to see why it would make things more predictable than in any of the many Medieval, Tolkien or Wheel of Time based muds around.

The problem is that there is just so much information about real-world history. With a made-up theme, you can invent the world yourself. Even with a Tolkien or WoT theme, there are huge amounts of the world and history which is uncharted - which allows for setting creativity. You suggested that Medieval/fantasy muds might be due to lack of imagination, but such settings require more imagination, because nothing is set in stone - the game world is based entirely on the imagination of the game developer. Moreover, as I said before, because the information is all made up by the game world creator, the players can't look up the information themselves. This forces players to explore the unknown if they want to learn more about the game world - or perhaps read the journals and exploits of other players.

As I said previously, a historical setting can work fine, but I prefer to play within a fictional one - and when I create a mud world, I like it to come from the imagination of myself and my fellow developers, not from a book.

[Falconer]

I also remember a game that was around for a while based on The X-Files--now granted, that's poking into the paranormal and 'magical' realms a bit, but it's also firmly planted in the real world.

Like anything, your idea could be a good one if you developed and structured it right, but the problems that KaVir et al. have brought up are ones that you're going to need to address before you even begin.  The main question you're going to need to address is where you'll find the sense of drama in your world, where the point is that spurs interaction between players (both cooperative and opposing.)

Secondly, I would be hard-pressed to believe that a MU* based on any specific point in history (like the Vietnam war) would be vastly successful.  After a time, you're going to run out of plots and conflicts, or continue to produce ones that are so similar to prior ones that everything begins to turn stale.

That's another appeal with fantasy/science-fiction original themes (as well as themes based on popular novels that aim to produce a new story in an author's world as opposed to a mirror of that world itself): a good creative director will always be able to create some fresh drama.

I do think the idea is a good one, and one worth exploring further, but you're going to have to sit down and brainstorm all the potential weaknesses and problems that might arrise, and find methods of fixing them before you start inviting players in the door.

Best,
Edward

[Yui Unifex]

I think a historical setting would be really nifty, particularly if it weren't perfectly accurate. Even though there is reams of detailed information on historical events, there are still plenty of places to fill in the holes. Did the colonial period have assassins? If so, what were they like? What if a redcoat assassin killed George Washington -- would another player/General rise to take his place, or would the British have surpressed the revolution -- and what would it be like afterwards?

There are so many possibilities if one just takes history to be as malleable as fantasy history. Perhaps one could reenact the espionage-laden Cold War, or JFK's assassination, or the first Emperor of China, who is said to have been destroyed by a fire-breathing dragon, but historians believe it was a meteor.