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This is a discussion on "Crafting system" in the Top Mud Sites Advanced MUD Concepts forum : This post got a lot longer than I'd intended...but I think it's important to 'set the scene' before describing the problem, so as to get across the angle from which I'm approaching it. Quite a long time ago I visited The Inquisition, and Robbert gave me a demonstration of his magic system - it involved using rituals to balance yourself against the phases of the different moons before casting a spell, and I found it a very interesting concept. I was reminded of it again last week while thinking about lockpicking, so I threw together a quick ... |
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#1 |
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Legend
Join Date: Apr 2002
Name: Richard
Location: München
Home MUD: God Wars II
Posts: 1,518
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This post got a lot longer than I'd intended...but I think it's important to 'set the scene' before describing the problem, so as to get across the angle from which I'm approaching it.
Quite a long time ago I visited The Inquisition, and Robbert gave me a demonstration of his magic system - it involved using rituals to balance yourself against the phases of the different moons before casting a spell, and I found it a very interesting concept. I was reminded of it again last week while thinking about lockpicking, so I threw together a quick system inspired by the concept. You target a door (or anything else with a lock), hold a lockpick set in one hand, then draw a lockpick from your set with the other hand. You may then use your lockpicks to perform various commands on the lock - each of the three lockpicks has six different commands, each of which adjusts one or more of the five lock tumblers by different amounts in different directions. You can swap lockpicks with a simple command, and each pick has different styles of command, so IMO it's a reasonable way to organise the information. Each tumbler begins in the range 1-4 or 6-9, and all five need to be at 5 for the door to open (although simpler locks will have as few as 2 tumblers). Performing a lockpicking command gives a message to the lockpicker such as "*click* *clunk* *clonk* *clunk* *clunk*", where "*clunk*" means the tumbler is under the desired setting and "*clonk*" means the tumbler is over the desired setting (these messages are also colour-coded, for quick reference in the lockpick command table). If any command would take one of the tumblers above 9 or below 1, none of the tumblers will move - the user gets a message about the lock being jammed (although this could also be replaced with a trap for the more dangerous locks). The system itself takes a little practice and a bit of time, but isn't overly hard; it's basically a mini puzzle for players who want to play stealthy characters, yet don't want every challenge to consist of killing monsters. However one of my players - Alayla - recommended applying the same concept to crafting, so I tried a simple alchemy system based on the same approach. Once again it utilises a 'set' - this time an alchemy set. You hold the set in one hand, then use the other hand to manipulate your potion. Unlike the lockpicks there are only two modes, representing whether or not your vial is over the flame, and the five tumblers are named 'density', 'colour', 'flavour', 'odor' and 'heat'. Each of the two modes has ten commands, although these are mostly the same, except for one mode increasing heat with each command and the other decreasing the heat. Each potion 'tumbler' starts at either 0 or 1 (to help prevent scripting), and (currently) they all need to be set to 5 for the potion to be complete. If any tumbler drops below 0, the potion congeals and needs to be thrown away, while if any tumbler goes over 9 the potion explodes, doing an (often fatal) amount of damage to the budding alchemist. The messages are a bit more informative than the lockpicking ones, also taking into account the danger levels (0/1 or 9) - thus you might get a message like "The potion is thick, light, sweet, scentless and boiling", which is the point at which you should quickly take the potion off the flame. The major difference between the two systems, of course, is that with lockpicking you only have one objective (open the lock), while with alchemy there are many possible types of potion that can be brewed. And that's that part where I can't seem to find an appropriate solution. A popular suggestion is that different tumbler combinations could result in different potions, allowing players to discover potions through experimentation. My concern is that players would simply post the receipes on the web, which would quickly undermine the whole concept and effectively allow all players to brew all potions right from the start. I could get around this by randomising the receipes based on the character ID, but that would completely prevent people from teaching each other or exchanging information - what I'd really like is a middle ground. The above could also be combined with the requirement for rare ingredients - but that would also amplify the previously mentioned problem. Experimentation is going to be even less appealing if it results in the loss of hard-to-get ingredients. I'm currently leaning towards taking a leaf from Fable's book - in Fable (on the X-Box), you can get various different tattoos and haircuts, but first you have to find the appropriate 'card' to show the tattooist/hairdresser. Having each receipe as an item would give players additional things to find, win, collect and trade. It also means that the crafting itself would be based completely on player skill, but that the options available would still be limited based on character knowledge. The receipes could also be stored as knowledge rather than as physical items - something that would perhaps be more realistic (although it could just as easily be said that the receipe cards are magic items and part of the crafting process). However this also removes the value of the knowledge, which (in my experience) means that people will once again soon end up with all the receipes. For this reason, if the skills were stored as knowledge, I would rather force PCs to spend something (exp, skill slots, etc) to learn them. However as crafting isn't a critical part of the game, requiring that people take valuable advancement points away from more important skills would likely result in the crafting system being mostly ignored, or delegated to crafting alts. For this reason, I think the receipe cards would be the better approach. Various ingredients could still be used in order to limit the number of potions produced, and there could even be some special ingredients which enhance certain (or all) spells - this would allow at least some "open secrets" to be passed around between players, without giving people access to all of the receipes. For the sake of consistency, whichever approach I take should be applied to the crafting of other items - weapons, armour, and so on. This is another point where I start having doubts about a 'receipe card'...does that really make sense for forging a breastplate? On the other hand, perhaps the armour cards might only apply to magical breastplates, allowing the beginner to practice smithing with ordinary gear (all forms of non-magical equipment will be very easy to get hold of, so this won't be a problem from a balance perspective). This would still maintain consistency with the potions, as potions are just a form of magical food. Any better solutions out there? Your thoughts are welcome |
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#2 |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 50
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You could still randomize the recipe, but allow for similarities. IE: recipes within a certain range would have the same effect, possibly greater or lesser than a particular characters 'ideal' recipe value.
This would let people post the recipes on the web, but the posted recipe may not work for any given individual, although it would get them close to right. In fact, the posted recipe may work, but not work nearly as well, since the recipe value may be far from the individuals ideal. (This could be taken further, maybe the recipe does something else entirely for this individual, or maybe it's off far enough to be harmful -- or maybe -- with yet another skill, the alchemist could more easily adapt this other persons recipe to himself?) This would require some sort of valuation to the recipe, and a way to apply those values to specific affects, but that should be trivial. Especially if each 'tumbler' of the recipe has it's own value (range). Also, it would require determining the ideal value per character per combination (not that all characters would require a unique ideal value), which would be more difficult. Some sort of hash value might be in order. |
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#3 |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Home MUD: Lusternia
Posts: 146
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I really like the lockpicking system--nifty!
For potions, I'm wondering what if each action (each card?) results in a random one of two results. Say you add salt and the potion could either turn milky or clear. Add sulfur to milky and it could turn sweet or sour. Add sulfur to clear and it could turn either bitter or bland. Your potion for health recipe may result in a milky, sweet potion, and your potion for fire resistance recipe may result in a clear, bitter potion. Thus, although players may still trade or pass recipes, making the potions still retains being somewhat of a mini-puzzle game, adding the twist that while an alchemist is trying to make a health potion the results may be unpredictable so he'll have to think on his feet and turn it into a fire resistance potion in order to salvage his work. If there's any skill level involved, perhaps the greater skilled the alchemist, the greater chance of getting the results he wants, i.e., when an alchemist with a high skill does ADD SALT FOR HEALTH, it may have a 60% chance of turning milky rather than a 50% chance that a lesser skilled alchemist may have. |
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#4 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 274
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I considered an alchemist guild too. But for mine I considered going astrologist on them. Basically, simple formula may work as expected from one player to another, with some variance, but more complex things would start to take into account the numerology of their character name, the phases of the moon, time of day, when the character was created, etc. The same formula for some truely complex one would thus only come close, and even for some people, might produce completely opposite results. Never got too far into it though, it would have been a balance nightmare, not even considering the nightmare of making it work in the first place, with enough variation to not just be, "there are 20 potions you can make total, that is all."
I figure for a system to work really well, you would need to make the entire mud with a magic/alchemical system built straight into the code for everything. So the wings from a bat would automatically have properties in alchemy, instead of having some player add 'bat wings' as an item some place, then being useless because the alchemy system was made a year ealier and doesn't know about them. The reason the magic system would be tied in too, is it makes for a similar option to create spells and provides consitent effects between potions, armor, weapons, spells, etc. Same rules governing the effects, but different rules for how those effects come about. A spell might let you enchant armor, then the next spell, if the right type, would imbed in the armor. An alchemist would maybe make a single potion with both inbedding and prep, or one that allowed the next potion to seep into the armor. Same result, different approach. But again, the problem then become balance, which means taking a 'pure' system of rules and imposing artificial limits on what the system 'can' produce. Kind of the opposite from normal guilds. Normal = special rules for every thing that 'will' exist, limited actual options, artificial variation. Fluid and adaptable = special rules to try to limit what is made, but unlimited options within those boundaries. Either one is bounds to be complicated if you don't make the result identical for everyone, which is then just boring. But heh, I am totally nuts. Your simpler system is probably a lot more sane. |
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#5 | ||||
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Legend
Join Date: Apr 2002
Name: Richard
Location: München
Home MUD: God Wars II
Posts: 1,518
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#6 | |
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Hey KaVir -
I linked this post to Bazarov, the author of the magic system on The Inquisition. He wanted to reply to your post, but the account system TMS uses takes several days for approval apaprently, so he asked me to post the below: Quote:
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#7 |
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Moderator
Join Date: Apr 2002
Home MUD: Carrion Fields
Posts: 637
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Something someone mentioned above is rather intriguing:
Let's say the game has a certain set of numbers denoting a 'recipe' for a potion. For each player, that set of numbers gets encrypted by a unique ID attached to the player file. (Upon character creation, one is randomly assigned.) Now, each player has to (essentially, not in an IC way) figure out the answer to that puzzle. Let's say Alice comes along, and figures out through clever experimentation that he can make a certain potion using objects X, Y, and Z. If Bob came along, and tried the same ingredients, it wouldn't work- Bob has a different ID number, and his items get encrypted differently. This solves the issue of characters subverting IC communication with OOC information sources, but it creates a quandry as KaVir pointed out... why can't Alice teach Bob ICly? However, the ID number also solves this. Let's say you create a command called teach. Alice can do: teach Bob potion_name objectX objectY objectZ Because the recipes are encrypted in a predictable fashion (Alice can always make that potion the same way... it's not determined by random number at the moment of creation), the code can 'translate' from one character to the other. The code says, "Alice uses X, Y, and Z. I've checked that it correctly would generate potion_name, so I'll give accurate information to Bob instead of misleading results. Using Bob's ID number, I'll tell Bob that he needs U, V, and W." Now: 1) Alice can teach Bob in-game. Players are rewarded for in-game collaboration. 2) Alice can't teach Bob out-of-game. Web sites aren't very useful. People have to play your game, not fire up Google. 3) ICly, you'll need justification for the different ingredients (alchemy linked to the user's soul, you're balancing out your own magical auras, etc.), but that's fairly easy to do. 4) Alice can lie, or simply be wrong. If she inputs bad ingredients, Bob gets misleading results. The roleplay dynamics of finding a knowledgeable mentor that Bob can trust are interesting. 5) Alice can make a living doing this, thus driving an in-game economy. If Alice is the first person to figure out how to make something, she can charge an arm and a leg for it. Of course, she might also have to swear her new student to secrecy... 6) It's compatible with your game's metric of ability, be it level, skill, etc. The teach command may malfunction if the teacher doesn't fully grasp the Potion Making skill, or if the potion is too high level, or anything else. This helps keep Alice in business- while she might be able to teach Bob how to make his potion, Bob might have to practice quite a bit before he's ready to teach Cindy. In the meantime, Alice is out seeing what price her talents can get. 7) Once Alice dies, the system still works. Her next character has to start as the student again. No one "beats" your game and moves on to other things- each time they play, it's a new challenge, based on interaction in two ways: A) With other people: She has to convince new master she's a good student. B) With the game's areas: Knowing you need mandrake root to make PotionA is all well and good, but you still need to go out and get some. And Alice's last character probably never had to bother finding mandrake root, since it wasn't in her recipe. Thoughts? Problems? Donuts? |
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#8 |
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Hmm, the thing that really bothers me about most alchemy systems out there is they rarely use authentic alchemical ingredients. The most obvious thing to replace the 'cards', in this case, would be a philosopher's stone. If you haven't played Darklands, an old RPG based in medieval Germany, I much recommend it...
Anyway, the stone... You might make it upgradable through short bursts of 'insight', while still keeping away from adding to a skill system. The way I'm thinking of it, the philosopher's stone represents the alchemist's affinity for his ingredients; It's extremely cheap to produce if you know how, but it's useless if you haven't used it for a long time, and gained some intimate knowledge of each stone's intricacies. The way you learn a stone is pure experimentation, and that's where you could make things more or less expensive for the player, and where the risk might be; Too strong of an acid, and you might ruin your stone, at least until you figure out a way to neutralize it. Just a few ideas. |
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#9 | ||
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Legend
Join Date: Apr 2002
Name: Richard
Location: München
Home MUD: God Wars II
Posts: 1,518
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I also don't want to reduce the number of attempts (at least too much), as the puzzles are supposed to be full game elements in their own right. With the added danger factor of traps and exploding potions, they should be fairly comparible with combat in terms of both risk and duration. I suppose I could add a bit of a safety net for more skilled characters - the chance of a potion exploding or a trap going off might be reduced, and/or additional warnings about a tumbler getting too close to the danger level. But player skill should also cover these factors fairly well. Quote:
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#10 | ||
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Legend
Join Date: Apr 2002
Name: Richard
Location: München
Home MUD: God Wars II
Posts: 1,518
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Having said that, I suppose you could get around the problem by dividing the ingredients into rarity levels, and then saying (for example) that a healing potion requires two common ingredients and one slightly uncommon, while a potion of invulnerability requires three rare ingredients, etc. Another way might be to say that the ingredients are fixed, but that you need to learn the recipe IC before you can use it. You might use google to discover that you need a snail shell, a piece of steelwood bark and a pinch of powdered iron can be combined to create a barkskin potion, but unless your character also knows, you won't be able to create the potion. This would allow the recipes to be made more fitting to the potion type, but the major drawback is that you could no longer experiment. It also raises the question of how anyone would learn a recipe in the first place (although that might fit well with an additional research-based puzzle system I've been thinking of, based on searching through books rather than mixing potions, with the options based on the library you're using - the 'find and trade' aspects I wanted to handle with recipe cards could instead be handled through the discovery of lost tomes of magic, with the more basic recipes being discoverable by spending time searching through city libraries). A third possibility would be to say that each ingredient has two values, with the first being used to determine the potion type and the second being adjusted by the character ID to generate a side affect. You might look up on the web that snail shell, steelwood bark and powdered iron can be used for the barkskin spell, but then discover that replacing steelwood bark with silverwillow bark provides a longer duration, while replacing the snail shell with a tortoise shell gives a stronger defensive bonus and a minor speed penalty. Having said that, I don't think this system would be a solution in its own right, as the websites would just list all possible ingredients and then just note that their bonuses varied. The recipe cards could also be used as an optional alternative to teaching - Alice could teach Bob (at which point he has to use his own ingredients), or she could just give him a recipe card (allowing him to use hers - but then preventing him from teaching it to anyone else, although he could just sell the card). Perhaps Alice could even set a limit on the number of potions each card could be used for, allowing her to hold a monopoly on certain potion types without having to spend all her waking hours spawning potions. Perhaps 'recipe card' wouldn't be the best name for it, but that's really just a cosmetic issue. |
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#11 | ||
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Legend
Join Date: Apr 2002
Name: Richard
Location: München
Home MUD: God Wars II
Posts: 1,518
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#12 |
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I like the concept of different ingredients having similar affects when mixed. I think this is one of the lanes of approach to your overall dillema, as well:
A recipe (or a users recipe card) could make the potion, but the longevity and strength of that potion with that recipe could be based on the users individual attributes. Perhaps interrelated with how much experience they have with a particular reagent - the more knowledge they have on it (the more they've used it in various ways), the greater the effects they can wring from it (to a point, more below). Thus a potion of invisibility from Clarice in Podunk could last quite a long time, because she made it with willowbark, chamomile and rat innards; the same potion made with the same ingredients by Fred - who has little experience iwth willowbark, and only heard of the recipe through word of mouth - leaves you translucent and lasts only a few moments. Later it could be discovered that Fred can make a much stronger potion with fried bat guano, boiled chamomile and a mush of rat innards, dissolved into mineral water, with the same affect (invisibility) as Clarice's. So you have recipes which can be bandied about, and will provide the users with quick, sure-fire solutions to what they want to make, but may not necessarily be the best for them. Even continued use of that formula won't make it their most effective solution, because they may not be using the ingredients which are most effective to their character. The balance you're looking for is hard to achieve, and even moreso when what you're doing is making a sidebar to the true game dynamics. You want it to be effective and utilitarian, but not so simple as to be something everyone has. |
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#13 | ||
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You might also intentionally make a stone upgrade only after hazarding potentially dangerous mixes; You have a potion of explosion, a stone, and you think by process of elimination that this recipe is the one which will teach you more about your stone. Hmm... Also, I suppose you could make some variance in the potential of each stone, and make each one better or worse for different tasks so that it's to the alchemist's advantage to learn more of them, but I'd keep them focused on only one or two stones. |
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#14 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 274
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Only comment I could make is that 'simple' alchemy should be just that, simple. I would consider making the level of the potion determine how far off the ingredients are. A truly high level one might use completely different ones, a low level one might just be a slight difference in amounts and a 1st level cantrip type alchemy might be identical for everyone, with little or any difference. Or even more interesting, their could be powerful 'primary' igredients, which your spirit, etc. would cause interference with. The true alchemy would be combining other 'balancers' that differ from person to person. You might know that a pheonix feather could either create a fireball like effect or let you empower something to give you permanent flight, but without first learning what ingredience counter the effect you don't want, you might get the wrong thing or end up with a piece of armor that literally makes you fly and fry at the same time. Needless to say, this would prove to be a major 'Oops!', unless by some coincidence you also accidentally got the heat to radiate towards 'apponent' instead of 'self'. In a truely complex enough system you could end up with something that exploded the moment you used it to fly or any number of other possible problems, not the least being accidentally producing the exact opposite of the effect, which itself would be bad. Armor that freezes the wearer? A bracelet that nullified flight in those that normally have it? A detailed enough system could give even the best alchemist nightmares over what might go wrong. |
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