[Fifi]

I believe that the only goal is to be able to find a new rpi mud that's going to be what an rpi player is expecting. I hate wasting my time on games with tons of chatter about nothing on a million global chanels, no character descriptions and no death. I'm sure that those games are lovely. But I don't want to play them. So, all of you who object to the term RPI just tell me how I will know when a new mud opens whether or not it's a waste of my time. What are the muds I'm looking for called?

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by Fifi I believe that the only goal is to be able to find a new rpi mud that's going to be what an rpi player is expecting. I hate wasting my time on games with tons of chatter about nothing on a million global chanels, no character descriptions and no death. I'm sure that those games are lovely. But I don't want to play them. So, all of you who object to the term RPI just tell me how I will know when a new mud opens whether or not it's a waste of my time. What are the muds I'm looking for called?

Same way you do for any MUD and the real purpose of TMS. To find the muds you like via a search engine, reviews, and rankings, and descriptions. If all you like is massive emote systems, perhaps you seek a MUSH? If you hate channels in any form than perhaps you seek a solo game. The reason for the search engine on Mud Sites is to help you with that.

The argument here with most people is that RPI is not a viable search at this time. It would be like putting a search engine for games that have a paid Administrator, but not a paid staff. Just a tad redundant.

[Fifi]

What I'm seeking is pretty much what was outlined in the first post deliniating what an RPI is. That's why we're using the acronym. Not to twist anyone's shorts, but so everyone can find or avoid them with complete ease.

[Delerak]

Originally Posted by Fifi What I'm seeking is pretty much what was outlined in the first post deliniating what an RPI is. That's why we're using the acronym. Not to twist anyone's shorts, but so everyone can find or avoid them with complete ease.

Quoted For Truth. It's as simple as this people.

[Threshold]

Originally Posted by Delerak Quoted For Truth. It's as simple as this people.

Then come up with an acronym that uses specific, unique identifying terms rather than generic words that have their own meaning. It isn't that hard, and tons of people have been suggesting it to you folks for years. It would solve all your problems if this is the TRUE reason you want an identifying name like RPI. Until then, stop crying that you can't lay claim to a generic set of words so you can find the exact type of MUD you want without putting forth a little effort like everyone else.

Oh, and while you're at it, drop the superior elitism. RPIs have their own absurdities and arbitrary design choices - just like any game. The RP is no better on an RPI than on many other MUSHs or RP enforced games out there. It is just different.

[Jazuela]

Threshold, stop hating on RPIs. Really; it's childish and unbecoming of a mud admin. Your game isn't an RPI. The people who have already grown accustomed to the term RPI, to describe an RPI, are happy to continue using the term RPI. You don't like it. You have made your opinion clear. So, don't call them RPIs if it twists your knickers so badly. Call them...oh..here's one:

Games That Have Permadeath, Roleplay Enforced, Free To Play, Skill-Based, Levelless, No-Global-Channel, Emote System But Not MUSH, Roleplaying Text-Based MUDs.

You can shorten it to GTHPREFTPSBLNGCESBNMRTB MUDs, the rest of us will call them RPIs, and everyone's happy.

[Delerak]

Theshold changed his avatar..

Anyway Jazuela pretty much summed up my thoughts about it. The acronym has been used for so long by us superior individuals that we will continue to use it. And we will continue to deem other mushes and muds that do not fit our criteria as inferior. For it is quite simply the truth.

Yes we are elite, and we are proud of it. I have an aquiline nose.

[Xerihae]

Originally Posted by Jazuela the rest of us will call them RPIs, and everyone's happy.

NOTE: "You" is used in this post as a catch-all term for players who use the term RPI to refer to three specific games or a subset that conforms to a set feature list.

You can continue to call them that if you wish. My only issue, and that of others who have replied here, is the derogatry way you sometimes treat other MUDs that advertise themselves as RPI. If they're trying to cash in/steal players from your games then that's different, but if someone calls their game an RPI because they have intensive roleplay then there is no reason for you or others to get all uppity and trash those games.

[Delerak]

Originally Posted by Xerihae NOTE: "You" is used in this post as a catch-all term for players who use the term RPI to refer to three specific games or a subset that conforms to a set feature list. You can continue to call them that if you wish. My only issue, and that of others who have replied here, is the derogatry way you sometimes treat other MUDs that advertise themselves as RPI. If they're trying to cash in/steal players from your games then that's different, but if someone calls their game an RPI because they have intensive roleplay then there is no reason for you or others to get all uppity and trash those games.

Sure there is reason. We coined the damn phrase RPI. What makes an RPI MUD intensive are the set of "intensive" features such as perm death, no levels, no global ooc channels, *goes to check his first post*. Anyway the list goes on, you can go read it if you like. It's Roleplay Intensive not Roleplay Enforced, because it has a set of features that are intense features, and when muds who do not have these intense features use the acronym, it is demeaning to us who may want to try other RPI muds and yet see a stock ROM/CIRCLE/DIKU or whatever that doesn't even half 2-3 of the features on the list I described earlier.

[Threshold]

Originally Posted by Jazuela Threshold, stop hating on RPIs. Really; it's childish and unbecoming of a mud admin. Your game isn't an RPI. The people who have already grown accustomed to the term RPI, to describe an RPI, are happy to continue using the term RPI. You don't like it.

Pretty much everyone who doesn't play RPIs thinks it is a bad term, and even some people who play RPIs think it is a bad term. The fact that some people like it doesn't really make a difference. It is a bad choice of term. It is not accurate. It is incredibly vague and generic.

The only "hating" I am doing is on the superior attitude that drips from the posts of so many RPI fanatics. I am not hating on any RPIs. I think many of them are fine games. I have many customers who also play RPIs (some of them admins on RPIs) and I would not even begin to disparage their work or the way they find entertainment.

Originally Posted by Jazuela You can shorten it to GTHPREFTPSBLNGCESBNMRTB MUDs, the rest of us will call them RPIs, and everyone's happy.

Or how about one of the countless reasonable suggestions that have been made? Like ARP (Armaggedon style RP). That is very specific and cuts right to the core of the matter. Or AHRP (Armagged/Harshlands style RP). If what you really care about is accurately labelling MUDs with a very specific set of rules, then use a more accurate and less generic term. It really isn't that hard. Alternatively, stop complaining when other people call their muds Role Play Intensive or RPI.

Take your pick.

Originally Posted by Delerak Theshold changed his avatar..

Yeah, I have used the other one for far too long. I hope you like it. It is a picture of a trulloc.

Originally Posted by Delerak And we will continue to deem other mushes and muds that do not fit our criteria as inferior. For it is quite simply the truth. Yes we are elite, and we are proud of it.

*chuckle*

[Threshold]

Originally Posted by Delerak Sure there is reason. We coined the damn phrase RPI. What makes an RPI MUD intensive are the set of "intensive" features such as perm death, no levels, no global ooc channels, *goes to check his first post*. Anyway the list goes on, you can go read it if you like. It's Roleplay Intensive not Roleplay Enforced, because it has a set of features that are intense features, and when muds who do not have these intense features use the acronym, it is demeaning to us who may want to try other RPI muds and yet see a stock ROM/CIRCLE/DIKU or whatever that doesn't even half 2-3 of the features on the list I described earlier.

Who cares if you think you coined the term. Who cares if you feel "demeaned." You sure as hell don't care about demeaning others, do you? Get over yourself.

You didn't coin the term MUD, you lack many of the core features of MUD, and yet you keep calling yourself RPI MUDs. But that doesn't seem to be a problem for you.

And frankly, some of the "features" RPI muds have are not, in my view and the view of many, intensive at all. Standing in a corner typing a command over and over to skill up is not "intensive" by any stretch of the imagination. Maybe you should use RSI MUD as an identifier.

And RPIs lack or completely ignore many "intensive" features that are standard on other MUDs, MUSHes, and MUCKs that call themselves "intensive." Many RPI features strike me as arbitrary and in some cases very unrealistic. But more power to you. Choose whatever features you want. But don't claim they are objectively better, more realistic, or more "intensive." That's where you go completely off the deep end and fail.

You have a set of features you like. They are not objectively better or more intensive than someone else's set of preferred features. So stop acting like they are, pick a specific term to categorize them, or STOP COMPLAINING when someone else calls their mud Role Play Intensive. You have a lot of choices available to you. Choose one of them and stop demanding that every other person and MUD in the universe obeys your every whim.

[Delerak]

Originally Posted by Threshold Who cares if you think you coined the term. Who cares if you feel "demeaned." You sure as hell don't care about demeaning others, do you? Get over yourself. You didn't coin the term MUD, you lack many of the core features of MUD, and yet you keep calling yourself RPI MUDs. But that doesn't seem to be a problem for you. And frankly, some of the "features" RPI muds have are not, in my view and the view of many, intensive at all. Standing in a corner typing a command over and over to skill up is not "intensive" by any stretch of the imagination. Maybe you should use RSI MUD as an identifier. And RPIs lack or completely ignore many "intensive" features that are standard on other MUDs, MUSHes, and MUCKs that call themselves "intensive." Many RPI features strike me as arbitrary and in some cases very unrealistic. But more power to you. Choose whatever features you want. But don't claim they are objectively better, more realistic, or more "intensive." That's where you go completely off the deep end and fail. You have a set of features you like. They are not objectively better or more intensive than someone else's set of preferred features. So stop acting like they are, pick a specific term to categorize them, or STOP COMPLAINING when someone else calls their mud Role Play Intensive. You have a lot of choices available to you. Choose one of them and stop demanding that every other person and MUD in the universe obeys your every whim.

Would you mind letting me know which core feautures of MUD that RPI MUDs lack?

Would you mind letting me know frankly some of the features that RPI muds have that are not intensive?

Just so we all are clear here:
in·tense /ɪnˈtɛns/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[in-tens] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. existing or occurring in a high or extreme degree:

Do you not agree that having permanent death is an extreme degree? Do you not agree that having no levels is an extreme degree? Do you not agree that having no global ooc channels is an extreme degree? Do you not agree that forcing your players to register accounts is an extreme degree? Do you not agree that forcing players to submit their characters as applications is an extreme degree?

I'm confused here. Name me one feature that I've listed for RPI muds that is not intense and I will gladly never post again. But however, you cannot. As you can see I have listed the definition of intense and Roleplay Intensive Mud, stands for a type of mud, not the fact that the Roleplay is Intensive, and it is, because at RPI muds we make it more intensive with certain features. Whereas at other muds the roleplay cannot be as intensive, because you simply do not have the extreme degree of changes that we have. Period.

Every single feature that an RPI mud has is there for a reason. Intensifying the experience and the roleplay. Sure you can say you have good roleplay at another mud, but if it doesn't have these set of features, it obviously isn't going to that "extreme degree" that all RPI players agree upon needs to happen.

I don't know what else to write.

[Threshold]

Originally Posted by Delerak Would you mind letting me know which core feautures of MUD that RPI MUDs lack?

I guess you are just skimming the thread. Go back and read The Logos' post about MUD.

Originally Posted by Delerak Do you not agree that having permanent death is an extreme degree?

Nope. See below.

Originally Posted by Delerak Do you not agree that having no levels is an extreme degree?

You have skill levels. 6 of one, a half dozen of the other. A level is an arbitrary number assigned to a player to determine the result of an action. So is a skill level. The only difference between a "level" and a "skill level" is the "level" amalgamates more things into a single number than "skill levels" do. If you use numbers behind the scenes to adjudicate results/die rolls, then there is no real difference. It is just minor, behind the scenes details.

I, like you, personally like skills more than levels. But I take the study of game mechanics quite seriously, and I understand that mechanically they have a very similar function.

Originally Posted by Delerak Do you not agree that having no global ooc channels is an extreme degree?

No, because it just moves to the forums, AIM, MSN, Facebook, TeamSpeak, Ventrilo, and Skype instead. It changes nothing. In fact, it makes things worse because then people talk OOC in ways that are totally unmonitored. Furthermore, that is just a preference. There is nothing extreme or intensive about it whatsoever.

Originally Posted by Delerak Do you not agree that forcing your players to register accounts is an extreme degree?

By that logic, WoW is the most extreme RPI of them all. They even make you provide a credit card!

Originally Posted by Delerak Do you not agree that forcing players to submit their characters as applications is an extreme degree?

What is extreme about that? Hundreds of games require that. There are web sites online that can generate such stories automatically by just plugging in a few words like a Mad Lib. I think it is a good idea on RP games to require such things, but I don't think it is "extreme" by any stretch of the imagination.

Originally Posted by Delerak I'm confused here. Name me one feature that I've listed for RPI muds that is not intense and I will gladly never post again.

Skill training through use is not "intense." It promotes and rewards scripting - e.g. someone standing with their face in a corner typing the same command over and over. Furthermore, it exists in tons of extremely "non role play intense" games - Morrowind, Oblivion, and WoW (in World of Warcraft, all of your skills train up through use). More than once in WoW I trained up my weapon skills by loading up on INT buffs and having a warlock friend banish elementals over and over so I could beat on them while they were immune. That was... not intense at all. Do you really promise to never post again? Not even a retraction and apology?

Also, I think permadeath is very often not intense. It lets you throw away a character and not have to deal with the long term ramifications of their behavior. You think it is intense to just die and start over? If the player wasn't allowed to keep playing the game, that might be true. But the reality is they get a clean slate. They get a full and complete do-over. A mulligan. In a lot of cases that is easier than having people use things against you that you did 8 RL years prior. Now, *that* is extreme.

See? It really is all just perspective and preference. What you think is marvellous and wonderful is only marvellous and wonderful for you and people who share your view. To a lot people, what you like is cheap, unbelieveable, unrealistic, and simplistic. Good thing for all of us that there is more than 1 game on the internet, huh? The difference is, non-RPI folks aren't the ones saying their way is the best, most realistic, most extreme, or most intense. So with that in mind, maybe you can stop being so superior and narrow minded? Maybe?

Who am I kidding? You are going to insist your way is still the best no matter how many people give examples of things they find far more extreme, realistic, believable, and fun. Oh well.

[Delerak]

No I've been keeping up with this thread, his post was in reply to Prof who believes that the RPI term is applied because the "original" rpi muds came up with it, so that's what dictates an RPI. I honestly don't care about that point of view, what an RPI is, essentially what anything is, is in relation to what the person reading or thinking about it wants it to be. The only problem here is, we have the people who play the muds with these set of extreme features, and I use extreme because they are extreme compared to other muds.

Your analogy about world of warcraft is absolutely ridiculous, the fact that they require accounts has nothing to do with the fact that normal MUDs do not. This deters from the norm of muds, hence the word "Extreme" or intense. It's the reason the adjective was chosen originally, because everything about "RPI" muds are to more an extreme and intensive.

You know very well that having global ooc channels won't deter any players from using any other instant messenger, the ooc channels do one thing and one thing only for an RP mud they detract from staying in-character and from the roleplay in general. In the middle of a play do you think the actors stop to take a break and talk about the final four basketball games or should we allow players to chat it up in the middle of an intense roleplaying session? I think not. You breed your players but what features you take and give to them. RPI muds take this feature for many different reasons, and to say that it doesn't detract from roleplay is quite ignorant on your behalf.

Either way, no matter how many analogies any of us use, neither side will understand the other. Because we're obviously from different stock. The fact remains that the acronym RPI was coined by a certain type of mud, and the fact remains that other muds that think they have "great roleplaying" want to use the term, and it ****es us off.

Well it ****es me off, I can't speak for the rest of the RPI mudding community.