[Fifi]

Thank you for the invitation. I think the only important thing is that everyone can search and advertise clearly and concisely. I think IRP is an excellent term.

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by Jazuela I've no interest in any games like yours. If you include your own game in the category of IRP, then I definitely am NOT looking for an IRP. I'm looking for something that fits similar criteria of what Fifi is looking for, what Delerak has outlined, what several of us have attempted to describe. Come up with a name for that category, exclude yourself from it, and let me know when the name is ready for people to use.

I thought I did. It was called MUSHI, ARP, RPI, or RBM. I and most would not use any of those terms to define the special games you like. And Jazuela, there is an entire web page devoted to the games you claim to want to play. How hard is it to go there and play all the games listed?

[Delerak]

Originally Posted by Newworlds I thought I did. It was called MUSHI, ARP, RPI, or RBM. I and most would not use any of those terms to define the special games you like. And Jazuela, there is an entire web page devoted to the games you claim to want to play. How hard is it to go there and play all the games listed?

Rpimud.com is flawed. Even though I have my mud listed there it's kind of joke because a lot of muds that are on the site are not RPI muds in my opinion, they share SOME qualities of an RPI mud but not all that fit into place to make it what 99% of all players who play Armageddon, Shadows of Isildur, or Harshlands feel might be an RPI.

I've logged into a few muds at rpimud.com and turned right around, so unfortunately the flaws exist even there.

[Delerak]

I can't believe it, but I'm actually tired of arguing about this.. Hah, that's a first for me. I'm always willing to argue and debate but I'm ready to wave the white flag on this thread.

[Threshold]

Originally Posted by Jazuela Come up with a name for that category, exclude yourself from it, and let me know when the name is ready for people to use.

ARP - Armageddon style Role Playing.

[Delerak]

Originally Posted by Threshold ARP - Armageddon style Role Playing.

Again you fail to realize that the point is not a style of roleplaying, it's a set of features. RPI MUD has nothing to do with the quality of roleplay you'll find at an RPI MUD but the type of mud it is with set of features.

Also most muds probably don't want to use another muds name to describe what type of mud they are, much less the quality or type of roleplay is going to be similar to that mud. I don't think any admin would want to do that. I highly doubt SoI would ever want to be labelled an ARP.. heh.

[Xerihae]

So have the people you consider to be RPI get together, come up with a community name for themselves, and tack that onto the beginning of Feature Set. There may even be a better way of doing it but having spent a good 4 hours today beating my head against a brick wall whilst trying to do something with MySQL, only to notice the door right next to where I was headbutting, my brain isn't working very well

If they decided to call themselves Gemini then you'd have the acronym GFS. Nice, unambiguous, and completely unlikely to be hijacked by anyone and even if someone does you can point out the features it's missing.

[Jazuela]

Originally Posted by Xerihae So have the people you consider to be RPI get together, come up with a community name for themselves, and tack that onto the beginning of Feature Set. There may even be a better way of doing it but having spent a good 4 hours today beating my head against a brick wall whilst trying to do something with MySQL, only to notice the door right next to where I was headbutting, my brain isn't working very well If they decided to call themselves Gemini then you'd have the acronym GFS. Nice, unambiguous, and completely unlikely to be hijacked by anyone and even if someone does you can point out the features it's missing.

Some of those people did get together. They came up with a community name for themselves. That name is:

RPI.

It has been RPI for over a decade. It probably will continue to be RPI, for as long as this category of game continues to exist, no matter who here on this one game forum among many, would demand otherwise.

[Xerihae]

Originally Posted by Jazuela Some of those people did get together. They came up with a community name for themselves. That name is: RPI. It has been RPI for over a decade. It probably will continue to be RPI, for as long as this category of game continues to exist, no matter who here on this one game forum among many, would demand otherwise.

Feel free, just don't start whining when games that don't match your "feature list" use the term because they're roleplay intensive, and don't start insulting said games because you feel you should have special dispensation to use the term solely in the way you and the rest of the "RPI" community want to.

BTW, "you" is directed at the RPI community, not specifically you Jazuela

Ironically, if you went down the road I mentioned you could probably come up with a nice, unambiguous acronym, that I'm sure TMS and TMC would be happy to add to their listing stuff and would allow the people who want that feature set to find said games quickly, easily, and without any others coming up. If the feature set was posted, you could bring claims against people using the term falsely to the relevant admins and after checking the evidence said people abusing the new term could have it taken off their listing.

Since you're all determined to continue with an ambiguous acronym, I guess it won't happen. Shame.

[Jazuela]

Originally Posted by Xerihae Feel free, just don't start whining when games that don't match your "feature list" use the term because they're roleplay intensive, and don't start insulting said games because you feel you should have special dispensation to use the term solely in the way you and the rest of the "RPI" community want to. BTW, "you" is directed at the RPI community, not specifically you Jazuela Ironically, if you went down the road I mentioned you could probably come up with a nice, unambiguous acronym, that I'm sure TMS and TMC would be happy to add to their listing stuff and would allow the people who want that feature set to find said games quickly, easily, and without any others coming up. If the feature set was posted, you could bring claims against people using the term falsely to the relevant admins and after checking the evidence said people abusing the new term could have it taken off their listing. Since you're all determined to continue with an ambiguous acronym, I guess it won't happen. Shame.

So you would consider "Gemini" to be an unambiguous term...are we now going to spend the next 5 pages defining ambiguous, and STILL be exactly where we started, over 10 years ago.

The thing is, nothing has changed in 10 years. And I see no reason why it has to change to something other than RPI. Just change the meaning of the three letters. Just say - "RPI is NOT an acronym. The letters don't stand for anything at all. They are just three letters designated to define this set of game features."

If you do that, then there's no problem, right? Just eliminate the idea that "RPI" stands for roleplay intensive. Which, if you want to get really anal about it, would be RI, not RPI. Since roleplay is one word, or at most, a hyphenated word. In which case it would be R-PI, not RPI. Or perhaps, R.-P.I. So everyone who claims RPI stands for roleplay intensive is wrong, already.

There. Problem solved.

[newbie]

Originally Posted by Jazuela So you would consider "Gemini" to be an unambiguous term...are we now going to spend the next 5 pages defining ambiguous, and STILL be exactly where we started, over 10 years ago. The thing is, nothing has changed in 10 years. And I see no reason why it has to change to something other than RPI. Just change the meaning of the three letters. Just say - "RPI is NOT an acronym. The letters don't stand for anything at all. They are just three letters designated to define this set of game features." If you do that, then there's no problem, right? Just eliminate the idea that "RPI" stands for roleplay intensive. Which, if you want to get really anal about it, would be RI, not RPI. Since roleplay is one word, or at most, a hyphenated word. In which case it would be R-PI, not RPI. Or perhaps, R.-P.I. So everyone who claims RPI stands for roleplay intensive is wrong, already. There. Problem solved.

That'd work.. If Average Joe the mud player didn't think RPI relate to roleplay intense.

Over a decade ago, You chose two letters in your 'tag' too outline game mechanics which are commonly used to mean "roleplay" and you're bitching that they're getting it wrong.


It'd be like Threshold coining the term PKI for muds which have a feature set which promotes PK and then getting ****ed when every PvP mud out there starts using PKI to distinguish there mud.

[Threshold]

Originally Posted by Jazuela The thing is, nothing has changed in 10 years. And I see no reason why it has to change to something other than RPI.

Actually a lot has changed. 10 years ago, this discussion could not even happen. Everyone would leap to the defense of the ARP games and flame anyone else into oblivion. But over time, more people have come to realize how vague and snobby the "RPI" term is both in meaning and usage. 10 years ago, the percentage of MUDs that focussed on role playing was pretty small. There are a lot more MUDs that focus on Role Play (either as MUSHes, RPEs, RPIs, ARPs, or some other classification) because role play is something MUDs can actually do as well or better than graphical MMOs. So things have changed in a very significant way in the last 10 years.

I think what we are seeing is the final, inevitable end to the exclusivity of this RPI term. It is going to continue to be used more widely, and it will continue to gravitate towards what the words actually mean: role playing intensive games. A year from now, RPI will be used even more widely by a more diverse set of muds than it is now.

So people who make and play ARP style muds have a few options available to them.

1) Think of a specific, non-generic term. Preferably one with some proper nouns in it to completely avoid what you consider "misuse." You cannot really hope to control a term if it uses normal words rather than proper nouns.

2) Let it go. Continue to use the term but stop getting your panties in a bunch if someone else uses the term differently.

3) Crai more n00b.

So far, most of the ARP enthusiasts on this forum have been going with #3. That's fine and I am certainly not going to try and stop them, but it isn't very productive and it just makes them look silly.

[ShadowsDawn]

Originally Posted by Jazuela The thing is, nothing has changed in 10 years. And I see no reason why it has to change to something other than RPI. Just change the meaning of the three letters. Just say - "RPI is NOT an acronym. The letters don't stand for anything at all. They are just three letters designated to define this set of game features." If you do that, then there's no problem, right? Just eliminate the idea that "RPI" stands for roleplay intensive. Which, if you want to get really anal about it, would be RI, not RPI. Since roleplay is one word, or at most, a hyphenated word. In which case it would be R-PI, not RPI. Or perhaps, R.-P.I. So everyone who claims RPI stands for roleplay intensive is wrong, already. There. Problem solved.

If RPI has no meaning other than a moniker for a set of features.. they why in the world is it used? It has *nothing* to denote that it is merely a feature set. Also.. if it is not an acronym, then stop whining when others have an acronym that denotes the standard of RP quality. Another thing.. if RPI has no real meaning other than sme arbitrary method to denote a set of features... why in the world use those letters? They have to have some actual meaning beyond "Waaaaaahhhh!! They are using it to denote quality/amount/intensity of RolePlay. Those are our letters we pulled out of out collective ***es because we wanted to have something to denote a set of features we want. Oh and we just chose these.. well.. just because."

Oh wait.. what did I just say? I use RP. Why is that? Could it be that RP has been the standard short form for Roleplay? It has been that way for longer than I have known about MUDs.. which incidentally is coming on 15 years or so... RP was used for Roleplay long before RPI came along. You dirty thieves! Gimme my R and P back!

You whine about it being *just* a feature set. If that is the case, then actually devise a system that makes it *obvious*. Society and cultures evolve and adapt over time MUDs are no different. Honestly, it looks like the Armageddon Feature Set crowd is outnumbered now as far as what people assume to be an RPI. Deal with it.. or adapt.

Kerrida

[Newworlds]

Silly people. This was all coming to a close and you opened it up again. Delerak said he didn't want to debate anymore and we are going back in circles. While fun, this has a dizzying effect.

[obit]

Perhaps if we can't share, we can take turns. I'll devise a ridiculously complicated system to determine down to the minute, who gets to use RPI, and what it means at the time. But only if I get to go first. This week, I want RPI to mean "Really Playerkilling Intensive", and if your MUD doesn't fit into that, you all have to change your RPI's to something else until I'm done.

[Delerak]

The war is far from over. Just because more people at TMS think that RPI should be freely used amongst any person who runs a stock mud and thinks that they have the best roleplay around doesn't make it true or right.

But whatever, what do I know? I've just been mudding for the past 12 years.

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by Delerak The war is far from over. Just because more people at TMS think that RPI should be freely used amongst any person who runs a stock mud and thinks that they have the best roleplay around doesn't make it true or right. But whatever, what do I know? I've just been mudding for the past 12 years.

What's the difference between a stock mud and a ripoff copy of features from say...Armeggedon? Wouldn't that be a "stock" ARP by definition. I mean, the biggest problem Delerak is your blatant use of terms as if there is something better about your definition of an intensive roleplaying mud.

The entire time you've been shown that there isn't, but it is all opinion. When will you just accept that?

More importantly. You keep popping off about Stock Muds. Would you name those "stock" muds that do what you claim above, for I've yet to meet them.

[Delerak]

Originally Posted by Newworlds What's the difference between a stock mud and a ripoff copy of features from say...Armeggedon? Wouldn't that be a "stock" ARP by definition. I mean, the biggest problem Delerak is your blatant use of terms as if there is something better about your definition of an intensive roleplaying mud. The entire time you've been shown that there isn't, but it is all opinion. When will you just accept that? More importantly. You keep popping off about Stock Muds. Would you name those "stock" muds that do what you claim above, for I've yet to meet them.

My point is that you are all saying it's okay for stock muds to use the term. Even though RPI's are a small niche in the community, they just wanted to be left alone with the term that they originated a decade (or longer) ago. The fact that you all just want to blatantly use it doesn't say much about you or your muds. It's essentially the same as any other term that gets mis-used anywhere, it doesn't have to just apply to MUDs, but the easiest analogies would be MUSHes or DIkU's. But we're comparing codebases now to simply a set of features within a mud. The problem is the RP in the word, "Roleplaying" is the big thing now for muds to try and draw people to them, yet in my mind the best roleplaying you can find is at RPI muds, why? Because the set of features forces you into a realistic setting of roleplay, where there are no distractions. I don't care if it sounds elitist, everyone wants their mud to draw "Roleplayers" but they can't even say they've tried a true RPI mud.

This isn't just a personal preference like everyone has been saying in this whole thread. Fir me from an actor's standpoint I can firmly say that I could never get in-character on stage if people were constantly talking about other things while I was acting (OOC channels), or if I saw somebodys real name all the time instead of their character (Short Descriptions/Main Descriptions). I can continue making analogies like these ones but honestly it won't matter because you guys trying to defend the use of RPI to anyone who wants to use it fail to realize it. Until you can say you've tried an RPI mud and have honestly tried to apply yourself to it's rules, boundaries, limitations, or whatever you want to call them, you'll never understand the viewpoint of an RPI player.

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by Delerak This isn't just a personal preference like everyone has been saying in this whole thread. Fir me from an actor's standpoint I can firmly say that I could never get in-character on stage if people were constantly talking about other things while I was acting (OOC channels), or if I saw somebodys real name all the time instead of their character (Short Descriptions/Main Descriptions). I can continue making analogies like these ones but honestly it won't matter because you guys trying to defend the use of RPI to anyone who wants to use it fail to realize it. Until you can say you've tried an RPI mud and have honestly tried to apply yourself to it's rules, boundaries, limitations, or whatever you want to call them, you'll never understand the viewpoint of an RPI player.

That is such a crock. First, most players are doing multi tasking when they play any mud including talking on AIM with there little buddies about who they should PK on your MUD, please do not be so naive that you think they don't.

Second, all of your arguments can be backhanded to you in full measure to show how lame some of your features are and the style of functionality. But that is pure opinion as well.

I really think this isn't the thread to get into "I'm better than you because of a,b, and c."

[Delerak]

Originally Posted by Newworlds That is such a crock. First, most players are doing multi tasking when they play any mud including talking on AIM with there little buddies about who they should PK on your MUD, please do not be so naive that you think they don't. Second, all of your arguments can be backhanded to you in full measure to show how lame some of your features are and the style of functionality. But that is pure opinion as well. I really think this isn't the thread to get into "I'm better than you because of a,b, and c."

Yes, we're derailing but it does relate to the guidelines for an RPI somewhat. Anyway.. it's not about being better. I've played a lot of muds over the years and the reason I've stuck to RPI is because of the quality of roleplay I've found at them.

You make a point when you say people might be on aim or somewhere else, but the fact of the matter is that they are not subjected to out of character discussion inside the mud itself, that is what counts and matters. As I matured over the years I started realizing these small tiny facts and when I first started acting on stage I even realized them further, how can you claim that you have a roleplaying atmosphere when you can't even get in character on the mud? Obviously people will say they can get in-character no matter what, but until you've seen the differences between RPI muds and the other muds out there you simply can't understand or compare the two.

[Threshold]

Originally Posted by ShadowsDawn Armageddon Feature Set crowd is outnumbered now as far as what people assume to be an RPI. Deal with it.. or adapt.

I like that idea of specifically labelling it feature set.

AFS = Armaggedon Feature Set

That really gets to the core of the issue, and uses a proper noun so there is not really any confusion or reason for other folks to want to use the acronym if it doesn't fit.

[Threshold]

Originally Posted by Delerak The war is far from over. Just because more people at TMS think that RPI should be freely used amongst any person who runs a stock mud and thinks that they have the best roleplay around doesn't make it true or right. But whatever, what do I know? I've just been mudding for the past 12 years.

If after 12 years you still think all muds that aren't AFSes are stock muds, then don't expect anyone to give your "experience" any credence. There are 3 month mud n00bs who know more about MUDs than that.

But thank you again for demonstrating the repugnant elitism that pervades and pollutes the whole AFS mud community. "If you aren't one of us, you're a stock mud."

Ridiculous and sad.

[Threshold]

Originally Posted by Delerak My point is that you are all saying it's okay for stock muds to use the term.

And now we know you aren't even bothering to read anyone else's posts. I don't think anyone has said this, and certainly not "all."

Originally Posted by Delerak Even though RPI's are a small niche in the community, they just wanted to be left alone with the term that they originated a decade (or longer) ago.

And everyone else wants to be left alone and not attacked because of how they choose to label their muds, or how someone looking for a mud chooses to label his preferences (which is how this current debate got started). You don't have any problem using the even older term "MUD" when your games are nothing like the actual MUD. So get off your high horse.

You don't get to play the "leave us in peace" card when it is your crowd that launches all the offensives.

Originally Posted by Delerak The fact that you all just want to blatantly use it doesn't say much about you or your muds.

Again, we see you aren't reading anyone else's posts. How many mud admins here have been arguing this issue because they actually want to use the term for their MUD? My count is zero, though perhaps I missed one.

Originally Posted by Delerak yet in my mind the best roleplaying you can find is at RPI muds, why?

If you define "best RP" as abusive PK where the small crowd in charge permadeath PKs anyone new who joins into oblivion, then I would agree with you. If you define "best RP" as the small elite crowd in charge forcing everyone new to kiss their butts or have their characters repeatedly deleted via PK, then yes I agree with you. That is not how I define "best RP" though. Some people do definte "best RP" that way, and for them AFS muds are the perfect choice. If they want to bow down and worship 5-10 people for 4+ years so as to not be permadeath PKed, they have a set of AFS muds to choose from and enjoy. But that is a whole other topic entirely, and has nothing to do with this issue. I just didn't want to let you slide in yet another elitist spew without it being challenged.

Originally Posted by Delerak This isn't just a personal preference like everyone has been saying in this whole thread. For me from an actor's standpoint I can firmly say that I could never get in-character on stage if people were constantly talking about other things while I was acting (OOC channels),

You say it isn't personal preference, and then your next sentence starts with "For me."

Wake up. That is exactly what it is: personal preference.

As for OOC channels, do you think the other actors and audience members are not occasionally thinking about other things? Their laundry list? The bills they need to pay? That hot guy/chick in row 2? Etc. Every single time you try to argue that one of your PREFERRED FEATURES is inherently and factually "better", someone is able to provide examples of how it is not objectively better, but just your preference.

Preferences are fine. Preferences are great. But please, drop the arrogant belief that your preferences are objectively BETTER than everyone else's.

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by Delerak Obviously people will say they can get in-character no matter what, but until you've seen the differences between RPI muds and the other muds out there you simply can't understand or compare the two.

Dude...again you are off base. By making this wild claim that anything ooc distracts you must get rid of anything non rp in your game. There are no games that are this way. Are you trying to tell me you have no hit point messages, no mail system, no score, nothing that is out of character at all to inform a player of anything?

I'm absolutely sure anyone can go into your game and find a slew of ooc supporting spam that occurs in the game. It is like an actor (and by the way, I've been professionally acting for many years both in as Equity - professional theater and SAG - Professional film) saying that you better get rid of the microphones, lights, camera and even the stage because it isn't real and distracts from being in character.

Come on let's not argue the ooc channel thing again especially when most IRP muds have the option to tune them out thereby giving you a full immersion of Roleplay.

[Delerak]

Well I'm done arguing my point over the matter. We all have different point of views, I realize that, and that's why there will never be any middle ground over this issue.

[prof1515]

OK, made sure to send myself an email of the log last time I was on the desktop downstairs so I'd be able to access the list later regardless of where I was. Here are the shared characteristics that were found, by myself over the years 2000-2008 and by others in a group study last month, when examining the original RPI MUDs, the games to which the term was first applied and hence in reference to. This is a very short summary of the list since each has further points and elaboration that I don't have time right now to edit into a longer definition. That will be done soon.

1. Strictly enforced in-character behavior (though this is not limited to RPIs alone as RPEs also by definition possess this).

2. No player-accessible global OOC channels.

3. Descriptive, generalized skill aptitude and attributes which prevent any precision in determinating.

4. Mechanics-based world for things like combat, manufacturing items, or understanding (or not) different languages.

5. Enhanced emote system that extends beyond the basic emote command found even in some stock codes.

6. Use-based advancement instead of "experience" or other point-based systems.

7. No experience points system.

8. No levels.

9. No classes as traditionally employed in MUDs which confine what a character can and can not do and which are used to categorize that character.

10. Permanent death. Not "soft" permadeath or other such concepts.

11. Detailed character creation and staff approval before entering game.

12. World design driven code. Each of the RPIs had code which was redesigned to meet their world design, not a world designed to meet the arcade-oriented code.

13. Description-based character identities. No names visible.

14. IC conditional PKing only. Killing for OOC reasons or just for fun limited and has consequences.

15. One character per player at a time: this is one of the things that needed refining since use of accounts has since become fairly standard on nearly all RPIs as a means of enforcing this but account systems were not common to all the founding RPIs when the term came into use (though accounts are now used by both the remaining original RPIs).

16. Objects use descriptions to determine quality or identity (no "Sword of Prof1515").

17. Detailed world design including historical, religious, political etc systems.

18. All rooms have descriptions.

19. No detailed who list. Info from a who command was limited to total online or removed entirely.

From my notes on the discussion and analysis, this seemed to the fairly complete list though a couple were derived from an examination of other discussions in the past and the features analyzed to determine if they did indeed match all the original RPIs. #19 was one such example and while the "no accounts" was disproven through such analysis but the "one character per player" aspect of that argument (#15) was proven to be true.

For my part, the list is the product of examining 900-1000+ MUDs including every Role-Play Enforced and even role-play "encouraged" MUD I could find via TMS and TMC over the course of this decade. I've also looked at various discussions by RPI and non-RPI administrators and players over that period as well for insight into feature characteristics. Finally, I compared the original games that the term RPI was applied to and checked each game against the others to see what characteristics were present in each. I also checked features brought up in discussions against those games as well.

Note that numbering of this list does not represent any value assessment of importance.

Take care,

Jason

[Delerak]

That's a good list. Better then mine.

[Newworlds]

Good job. You have just rewound this this thread back to the beginning.

Let the insanity begin!

(Helpful Hint: Those of you interested in posting while saving time and frustration might just go back to page one or two, copy your posts from there, and post them back here again).

[Delerak]

Originally Posted by Newworlds Good job. You have just rewound this this thread back to the beginning. Let the insanity begin! (Helpful Hint: Those of you interested in posting while saving time and frustration might just go back to page one or two, copy your posts from there, and post them back here again).

No I think we're all done arguing here at TMS. These discussions will most likely be archived and re-posted at other sites such as rpimud.com, mudconnector, or even the RPI muds forums so we can get a take on other perspectives and point of views from different forums.

[Delerak]

In the spirit of having too much time on my hands I've posted a few videos on the topic of RPI muds. You can view them at my youtube site.

YouTube - delerak's Channel

thanks.