[Nymeria]

Originally Posted by Veela Hello All, I was really excited to see that someone was going to give a non-newbie Mudder (but clueless none-the-less) a place to learn about other RP options out there. So I log on and start looking for the FAQ's. Instead I was told that most discussions are blocked unless you register. So I did, taking about another five minutes of my lunch break. Then i finally get here only to find sniping about discourtesy and no real help about definitions and distinctions between MUD and MUSHes. I might be able to find it if I scroll down through all the harping back and forth in posts but frankly my lunch hour is half over and it no longer seems important enough to look up. I am sure that your conflict needs resolved to your satisfaction, however could you do it NOT in the section that is supposed to be giving out information. Because bluntly this was a monumental waste of my time and any other person's who came looking for some answers and insight.

While it is unfortunate that you didn't find what you need, if you had read the first post on the thread it should have been pretty obvious that this thread was started to discuss what such a resource might contain. There are some useful answers, but they are spread out here and there in the posts, waiting to be gathered up and made into a cohesive unit.

No one made you read it.

[misao]

Originally Posted by Veela Hello All, I was really excited to see that someone was going to give a non-newbie Mudder (but clueless none-the-less) a place to learn about other RP options out there. So I log on and start looking for the FAQ's. Instead I was told that most discussions are blocked unless you register. So I did, taking about another five minutes of my lunch break. Then i finally get here only to find sniping about discourtesy and no real help about definitions and distinctions between MUD and MUSHes. I might be able to find it if I scroll down through all the harping back and forth in posts but frankly my lunch hour is half over and it no longer seems important enough to look up. I am sure that your conflict needs resolved to your satisfaction, however could you do it NOT in the section that is supposed to be giving out information. Because bluntly this was a monumental waste of my time and any other person's who came looking for some answers and insight. I feel the need to apologize to any other person searching for information on this topic that has to read MY sniping. But maybe it will save you time and hassle and you can look somewhere else for actual FAQ's. Veela

I agree 101% with this, and I deeply apologize for the few posts of mine that would have fallen under the 'sniping' category. I truly do wish that the MODs would be more stringent with out-of-topic posts, and perhaps remove the entire middle chunk from this thread (minus Kavir's insightful ones about code scattered here and there, though).

[Orrin]

Originally Posted by misao I agree 101% with this, and I deeply apologize for the few posts of mine that would have fallen under the 'sniping' category. I truly do wish that the MODs would be more stringent with out-of-topic posts, and perhaps remove the entire middle chunk from this thread (minus Kavir's insightful ones about code scattered here and there, though).

Topic drift is often how a lot of useful and informative discussion takes place. While personal insults certainly have no place in debate I'd caution against a laissez faire attitude to post deletion as it can be just as stifling to discussion as the bickering which some of you find so offensive.

[misao]

Plenty of forums have no qualms deleting very evidently off-topic posts, and are none the worse for it.

You seem to imply that 'some of us' cannot stand bickering, as if it's a bad thing to dislike - why did you message me to request that I remove a certain post of mine, then? (Which I willingly did, as I too admit that it is wrong)

[Orrin]

My implication was only that one person's bickering may be another's robust debate. In this thread for example there have been some interesting points about how different people view role-playing despite the confrontational manner of some of the posts. I know I've gained some insights that I didn't have before, and that's surely the point of a discussion forum.

I didn't message you to remove the post, simply the part where you referred to another poster as "an arrogant prick" (or words to that effect, I forget the exact post now). It's certainly not my place to censor you and I was simply making a request that you disagree with someone without trading insults.

[Jazuela]

If the poster had actually checked the heading of this thread, they would have discovered it is -not- a FAQ file. It is a discussion, in a discussion forum, in a category for mud admins and developers, and that the topic is asking specifically to discuss what the differences are. Not to list the differences, but rather, to discuss them, in an attempt to create such a list, on behalf of one MUSH owner's website.

It sounds more to me like someone was sent here intentionally to stir the pot and accuse the people discussing this topic of sniping. Which - in forum terms, is called - trolling.

[Delerak]

Originally Posted by Veela Hello All,

What the hell are you talking about? You register and your very first post is bashing people who are in a heated debate over MUSH and MUD for posting our thoughts and opinions?

It's a forum. This thread isn't meant to be compiled as one great source of information or a "FAQ" because that's why it's a thread being discussed instead of a topic that is locked and stickied.

There is a difference between a thread for discussion and a thread posted with no responses that is a community-wide accepted definition or FAQ.

[Delerak]

I didn't notice Jazuela post before me. Pretty much said what I was saying in a more refined manner. Either way.

[MudMann]

*snort*

I do not think for one second someone who clearly is counting the lost mins of their lunch break would take the time to pen such a lengthy post on a forum they are new too.. it makes zero sense. And as to agreeing with it 101% and appologising.. please... if you are so grossly unhappy here.. why carry on posting.

So come on.. which of you complainers has joined under another name to make some kind of stupid point... and in SUCH a foul colour!

[Delerak]

Originally Posted by misao I agree 101% with this, and I deeply apologize for the few posts of mine that would have fallen under the 'sniping' category. I truly do wish that the MODs would be more stringent with out-of-topic posts, and perhaps remove the entire middle chunk from this thread (minus Kavir's insightful ones about code scattered here and there, though).

Thankfully the MODs here actually know how to moderate a forum and don't censor everything and create a community of yes men/women. Variety in opinion is what makes TMS a place to discuss anything about MUDs.

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by MudMann *snort* I do not think for one second someone who clearly is counting the lost mins of their lunch break would take the time to pen such a lengthy post on a forum they are new too.. it makes zero sense. And as to agreeing with it 101% and appologising.. please... if you are so grossly unhappy here.. why carry on posting. So come on.. which of you complainers has joined under another name to make some kind of stupid point... and in SUCH a foul colour!

While it was very harsh to look at, I think Misao has a valid concern about keeping things civil here in order to encourage more members. She certainly didn't make that post.

[Lasher]

Originally Posted by Delerak Thankfully the MODs here actually know how to moderate a forum and don't censor everything and create a community of yes men/women. Variety in opinion is what makes TMS a place to discuss anything about MUDs.

There's a fine line between letting the community have open discussion and removing posts that deteriorate into a "flame war".

We won't always be on the right side of it. If we have the balance right, at any point in time probably about 50% of the forum agrees that we (a) moderate too much (b) don't moderate enough

[Nymeria]

Originally Posted by MudMann So come on.. which of you complainers has joined under another name to make some kind of stupid point... and in SUCH a foul colour!

I admit, I had to restrain myself from commenting on the colour.

[Delerak]

Originally Posted by Lasher There's a fine line between letting the community have open discussion and removing posts that deteriorate into a "flame war". We won't always be on the right side of it. If we have the balance right, at any point in time probably about 50% of the forum agrees that we (a) moderate too much (b) don't moderate enough

I think it should depend on the thread and forum in question. Certain topics are going to bring more heated debate than others. If somebody is blatantly posting harmful things in harmless categories such as the advertisement areas, then moderating is probably necessary.

[misao]

Originally Posted by MudMann *snort* I do not think for one second someone who clearly is counting the lost mins of their lunch break would take the time to pen such a lengthy post on a forum they are new too.. it makes zero sense. And as to agreeing with it 101% and appologising.. please... if you are so grossly unhappy here.. why carry on posting. So come on.. which of you complainers has joined under another name to make some kind of stupid point... and in SUCH a foul colour!

You clearly need to learn to read. When did I mention I was 'grossly unhappy' here?

I simply agreed that many posts here were evidently quite off-topic and apologized for my share in them. If that somehow offends you, I think you need some serious self-examination. Either that, or I must have somehow stepped on your or your other handle's toes sometime in the past.

Lasher, I agree with you as well - it's impossible to please everyone, and everyone has different opinions on how much censorship should be performed.

[Delerak]

Originally Posted by misao You clearly need to learn to read. When did I mention I was 'grossly unhappy' here? I simply agreed that many posts here were evidently quite off-topic and apologized for my share in them. If that somehow offends you, I think you need some serious self-examination. Either that, or I must have somehow stepped on your or your other handle's toes sometime in the past. Lasher, I agree with you as well - it's impossible to please everyone, and everyone has different opinions on how much censorship should be performed.

He wasn't referring to you, he was referring to Veela. Far as I can tell. You're definitely one of the more sensitive posters though.

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by Veela So I log on and start looking for the FAQ's. So I did, taking about another five minutes of my lunch break. Instead I was told that most discussions are blocked unless you register. Then i finally get here only to find sniping about discourtesy and no real help about definitions and distinctions between MUD and MUSHes. I might be able to find it if I scroll down through all the harping back and forth in posts but frankly my lunch hour is half over and it no longer seems important enough to look up.

Some quick points:

1. This is a discussion forum, not an FAQ. Did you not notice that the link you clicked to get here was in the section entitled "Recent Forum Discussions"?

2. It is poor netiquette to post without first reading the thread, because the chances are your post will be irrelevant or redundant, and thus waste the time of other readers. If you'd taken the time to read the guidelines at the top of this forum then you'd have known that - as well as what to expect from this thread.

3. You don't need to sign up to read the discussions. In fact, the recommendation to sign up would have appeared on the same page as the discussion itself, so if you saw that notice then you were already viewing this thread. The first line of the first post makes it clear that this is a discussion and not an FAQ.

4. People disagree on a wide range of subjects, and sometimes they aren't very nice to each other. Welcome to the internet. Thick skin isn't optional.

5. That colour is disgusting. If you post again, I would hope you'd show a little more consideration (and better manners) in general, but that colour really has to go.

[MudMann]

Originally Posted by Delerak He wasn't referring to you, he was referring to Veela. Far as I can tell. You're definitely one of the more sensitive posters though.

you have a gift for understatement......

Ok.. I think the magenta complainer may have left the building,... back on topic please

Wasnt a Veela the creature the bulgarians used as mascots in the Quidditch World Final (Harry Potter)... was all nice and sweet, but when they were unhappy they screeched like harpies? The world is full of wonderful coincidences

[prof1515]

Likely they meant the fact that you have to sign up to post and somewhere in between selecting the worst color text they possibly could and fuming that they can't just criticize anonymously they forgot that and wrote that they had to sign up to read.

The question is, will they read these responses or are they at their local McDonalds complaining, "Where is the cereal? You call this a grocery store?!?"

[Veela]

Well Hello Again,

I was not going to come back here as I did not find it as helpful as I had liked. I however had minimized the window and when I got on the computer later; I started looking at other links listed on the site and found some very useful. I had intended to come back into this forum and state just that. That your site had given me information that was both useful and pertanent to my search.

However instead I find an amazing amount of slams sent in my direction. With accusations that I am not really a new member or was only making a post to "stir the pot". Well I would like to answer some of these statements.

But first as to the color I use. This is my signature color for my signature bard Veela. A little information about me. I am a female mudder who has been RPing for around 10 years and was introduced to mudding by my husband. Yes there are real life female mudders and we conduct our characters a little different as should be expected. It has been my past experience that people embrace differences in the mudding world as it adds flavor to the tapestry that is their realms. Apparently web sites talking about mudding are less tolerant of an individual's expressive style.

As to the slam about my character name and attributes thank you for noticing. I chose the name for exactly that purpose as the Veela in the book entice the men around them by their beauty and completely distract them from their evil temperment. As I play a surface bardie that has a secret afiliation to a passle of orcs, drows, duergers and goblins the irony tickled me as well.

As to the comments on needing to register, that was EXACTLY the impression I had. I clicked this link and started to read the posting when a box came up and said that to have full access to member posting areas that I would need to register. So I did. Pardon me for thinking there was a reason for the pop up message.

As to the part about etiquette. I have learned something today. I do not participate in forum discussions and did not know how they even worked and wasn't sure even how to post a comment. Scoff if you must, but that is a truthful statement none the less. As I originally came on to say, once I came back and scrolled down there was some valid information that gave me additional insight as to the world of the admin wizards located just beyond the curtain. So if I had offended by posted before reading I am sorry and will keep that in mind should I enter into anymore forum discussions.

However the orignal point of my post is very valid. I did not think that it would be a cut and dried list of FAQ's but that it would be a give and take on what their content should be. And in that give and take there would be solid information about MUD and MUSH content, similarities and differences. I still maintain that if this is the content heading of your topic of discussion that the majority of posts should fall under that heading. And as I stated, that a NEW thread could have been started to address the other concerns. I must also admit that I found my original assumption to be true. There is some very solid information about these differences in the posts here, but again you had to wade through a large amount of bickering to get to the meat of it.


If your desire is to increase the number of new members to your site then you might try to be a little more welcoming to those that do show up and actually post something. Your next new visiter scanning posts is going to see how you treated this one and an impression is going to be made. You need to ask yourself is this the impression that you want them to get.

Sincerely,
Veela

Just in case there is still some doubt as to my validity as a seperate entity from others you can email me at tlgoering@hotmail.com.

[MudMann]

Veela

Most folks who are new come onto this forum, say hello.. join in a few threads in a low key manner to get a grasp of who is who, and then start to exert their own style..

You came onto a forum, and started complaining about it, and still in a horrific colour which is not pleasant to read.. which considering how much you seem to be able to write is quite painful.

Regardless, welcome to the forum, a forum for mudders.. not their characters, hence no need to use any colour other than white.

You certainly seem to have a lot to say, and have an attitude which should go nicely in TMS as responding to the slightest.. slightly poking.. retort.. with waves of defensive / offensive text is the norm here :-)

[Veela]

Sir,

I am a bardie, with an affinity for words and the guts to use them. I stand by my original post and try at all times to be fair. The only intention I had in returning was to modify the original, in your face tone, of the 1st post. It was not until I read all the responses that I chose to get so verbose. A quirk in my personality or a genetic predetermination from generations of celebrated artists in my family tree, plays out in my use of color. The intentionnal use of color was not to be offensive rather instead to be expressive. Now that it has been brought to my attention that it is difficult to read I have made modifications.

Veela
Sarcasm not fully utilized at this point.

[Threshold]

There is one rule about forum posters that I have found to be true in 100% of cases:

Any poster who feels their posts need to be in a special color is incredibly self centered and self important.

It is one thing to change one's own color settings. It is another to force a color setting on other people. That is just wrong on many levels.

Veela: If your bard has a signature color, then go into your browser settings and change the default font color to mangenta. But forcing magenta on other people, who expect and want the forum to have a consistent look (for readability) is just selfish in the extreme.

[Delerak]

Originally Posted by Threshold There is one rule about forum posters that I have found to be true in 100% of cases: Any poster who feels their posts need to be in a special color is incredibly self centered and self important. It is one thing to change one's own color settings. It is another to force a color setting on other people. That is just wrong on many levels. Veela: If your bard has a signature color, then go into your browser settings and change the default font color to mangenta. But forcing magenta on other people, who expect and want the forum to have a consistent look (for readability) is just selfish in the extreme.

Agreeing with Threshold.

[MudMann]

Originally Posted by Delerak Agreeing with Threshold.

OK.. I may be gone for some time... Delerak just agreed with Threshold which must mean I am seeing things and have finally gone insane.. as we ALL know Delerak never agrees with Threshold..

I almost think I saw Proff115151541 (whatever) and Newworlds actually turning a flame war into a civil conversation again... and that is really my imagination

[prof1515]

Originally Posted by MudMann OK.. I may be gone for some time... Delerak just agreed with Threshold which must mean I am seeing things and have finally gone insane.. as we ALL know Delerak never agrees with Threshold.. I almost think I saw Proff115151541 (whatever) and Newworlds actually turning a flame war into a civil conversation again... and that is really my imagination

It's the end of the world! Quick! We must do something to stop it! Newworlds, you...you...um...you eat your soup with a fork! Now, Threshold and Delerak, say something about each other. We must restore order to the universe!

Seriously though, I too agree with Threshold's observation. I also find it funny that someone claiming to be a wordsmith would call themselves the larva of an insect.

I am a bardie, with an affinity for words and the guts to use them.

"Bardie" is an Australian Aboriginal word for edible grubs. A "bard" is not the same thing. Shouldn't someone with "an affinity for words" know this? I won't go into the various punctuation and spelling errors littered throughout the post though.

A quirk in my personality or a genetic predetermination from generations of celebrated artists in my family tree, plays out in my use of color.

There's no evidence of color preference being genetic so it has to be a "quirk" in your personality. However, I have to ask a couple of questions. If your role-played character is a bard, assuming that you don't role-play a grub, why should anything on the forum matter to them since this is a web forum in the real world, not in a game? Are you suggesting you have trouble separating your MUD character from reality? If so, that's not a quirk; it's a much more serious problem.

Jason

[Jazuela]

What Veela saw was one of two things:

1. Upon checking on the forum without being registered/logged in, a message letting you know that your *posting* access is limited until you are registered and logged in, with an invite hyperlink to the registration page. You still have full reading access.

2. Upon attempting to reply to a post, when not registered/logged in, a notice telling you that you need to be registered/logged in to reply.

There is no message saying that most access is blocked. Only that certain membership privileges are specifically for registered, logged-in members. Such as PMs, and *participating* in the forums (as opposed to simply reading them).

I don't ever log in when I come to TMS to check the forum. I just go to the main TMS page, and look on the "most recently posted" list. If there's a thread of interest I'll click it and read it. I won't log in until I decide to reply to something, and I'm logged out when I leave the site. So I see both of those "please log in" messages. Neither of them block me from reading anything at all.

Also, I believe Veela is actually claiming to be a bard. A real life honest to goodness bonafide bard. If this is the case, I beg leave to request that she give my fondest regards to Bill.

[Milawe]

Nice! I didn't even know I could post in another color. This is my favorite color, and I thrust it upon you all.

Anyway, to get back to the topic (though I'm seriously late), we have about 10 players on Threshold that actually move back and forth between Threshold and a Kushiel MUSH rather frequently. They'll usually play one or the other depending on what intertests them most at the moment. All of them started on Threshold first and decided to play the Kushiel based MUSH because of our interests in those books. Though many of the players on the MUSH welcomed them with open arms, they did meet with a lot of disdain from a few players because they came from a MUD. In a MUD, especially an RP-enforced one where politics matter nearly as much as levels, you learn to plan your character's actions in a lot of details because you know there are some "real" consequences to slipping up. (I put real in quotes because losing a level doesn't really give you real life consequences, but it does give your character in-game consequences.) Thus, the players were more than ready to deal with the challenges of a MUSH. Most of the challenge came in simply learning the particular "culture" of the MUSH they chose. This included things like setting up scenes, how to pose, what was an appropriate length for posing, and learning how to wait some time before posing.

On Threshold, everything happens about 10 times faster than it does on a MUSH, even with the people who spend a lot of time writing elaborate poses (or emotes as we call them). You can easily wait 15 minutes between poses on a MUSH while on Threshold, you'd wait at most 3 minutes. Some people don't even wait that long and will cram in as much as they can before their opponent can get anything in edge-wise. That statement alone shows one of the biggest differences between the "play" of many MUDs and MUSHes. In a MUSH, you are playing cooperatively even when you're in opposition. You are agreeing to play the opposition to see what comes out of the story you're both telling. In a MUD, because of its coded elements, you can have a ton of opposition with very little RP, even if the rules demand that you have RP. Both of these are roleplaying, and it's a mistake to believe that people on MUSHes work out every word to every scene and how it's going to play out. They simply agree to come together to play a specific scene. The outcome is not necessarily determined nor is it always scripted.

On Threshold, we've encouraged people to get together to plan large events and even to coordinate with the administration on these events. All players know that they don't get to tell us what the outcome is going to be. They simply tell us their planned event, how they think it is going to turn out, what they hope will happen, and their RP and logic behind it. Sometimes things turn out pretty well, and other times, a tower lands on someone's head. I don't think that getting together to agree to play out a scene on a MUSH is that different.

In the end, the RP on a MUSH and the RP on an RP-enforced MUD is not all that different once it gets going. RP is a tool in which different people get together to tell a story in tandum. How it is accomplished differs greatly and the settings are vastly different. In the end, what players are learning are simply different cultures of the game. (I sit around mocking people who RP on WoW, but in the end, what they're doing is not THAT different than wanting to RP at a table top game, a LARP, a MUD or a MUSH. I should probably shut my piehole.) So, your FAQ needs to deal with basic commands and the basic culture of MUSHes vs. a MUD.

Not sure that really helps. I'm feeling sort of rambly.

[Nymeria]

Originally Posted by Milawe In a MUSH, you are playing cooperatively even when you're in opposition. You are agreeing to play the opposition to see what comes out of the story you're both telling. In a MUD, because of its coded elements, you can have a ton of opposition with very little RP, even if the rules demand that you have RP.

I think this observation sounds like a pretty good generalization, with the caveat that there are certainly more competitive MUSHes out there, and probably less competitive MUDs.

Originally Posted by Milawe So, your FAQ needs to deal with basic commands and the basic culture of MUSHes vs. a MUD.

Yes, I am thinking now the command side can be pretty basic (and in-game, I am considering what sort of things can be given aliases to make them easier to find), but that the culture is where it could help with some longer write-ups. Though a lot is game specific, so a general FAQ could be shorter.

Definitely helpful, thank you.

[misao]

Originally Posted by MudMann you have a gift for understatement...... Ok.. I think the magenta complainer may have left the building,... back on topic please Wasnt a Veela the creature the bulgarians used as mascots in the Quidditch World Final (Harry Potter)... was all nice and sweet, but when they were unhappy they screeched like harpies? The world is full of wonderful coincidences

And as to agreeing with it 101% and appologising.. please... if you are so grossly unhappy here.. why carry on posting.

Right, so this had nothing to do with my post? Wow, you arrived at the exact same number I typed -- the world is full of wonderful coincidences indeed.

Still, if you weren't referring to me, all's good then.