[the_logos]

Originally Posted by I thought Cardea had been dead in the water for years since the vortex licensing problems. I just tried to connect and while it is online they have disabled new sign ups, so who knows.

We had yanked their Vortex license for completely failing to pay royalties or keep an accurate accounting of their revenue. They started using a new engine, but they are still in 'beta'. They opened in August, 1997, one month before Achaea did. They definitely don't have anyone working on it as a job.

--matt

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (nhl @ April 15 2006,13:30) The only ones listed that I'm unsure of is the Avalon's, but I suspect that they too run on a custom codebase (atleast it's their claim in TMC).

I used Avalon's engine way back when (before Vortex, before Rapture) and have seen their codebase. It's custom.

--matt

[nhl]

Originally Posted by (Threshold @ April 16 2006) Why does the difference matter to people? Because it would be very easy for something significant to happen in your life (career, social, or otherwise) that would cause your mud to be an extremely low priority. A professionally run mud where the owner(s) depend upon it for their livelihood is far less subject to that kind of risk.

I disagree strongly with this statement. Many "hobbyist" MUDs, us included, have multiple active administrators. Even if one (or a few) admins suddenly feel the MUD is a low priority, it does not have a direct impact on the game because other admins can easily fill the gap.

On many (but not all) professional MUDs, there is one or a couple of paid administrators, and then a bunch of volunteer staff (who may receive some benefits for "volunteering"). In these scenarios, should one of the paid admins leave (vacations, lucrative job offers etc), it will have a much bigger impact on the game than in the hobbyist scenario. Most of the "professional" MUDs have a quite limited budget, so it's not possible for them to keep half a dozen or more of paid staff that could then be elevated into administrators. I would also argue that just because someone has a financial interest in a game (maybe with the exception of games that has seen a truly significant investment budget prior to launch), "professional" MUDs are more prone to being shut down (or replaced with another game) if the administrator realizes he is no longer earning enough from the game.

The case for stability in professional MUDs versus hobbyist MUDs mainly applies to hobbyist games with a single implementor. There are risks in both models, but since the admin of a professional MUD is financially dependant on the game, he/she is more likely to terminate (or make significant modifications) in the project, should the businessmodel start failing.

[Threshold]

Originally Posted by (nhl @ April 17 2006,06:16) I disagree strongly with this statement. Many "hobbyist" MUDs, us included, have multiple active administrators. Even if one (or a few) admins suddenly feel the MUD is a low priority, it does not have a direct impact on the game because other admins can easily fill the gap. ... The case for stability in professional MUDs versus hobbyist MUDs mainly applies to hobbyist games with a single implementor. There are risks in both models, but since the admin of a professional MUD is financially dependant on the game, he/she is more likely to terminate (or make significant modifications) in the project, should the businessmodel start failing.

BatMUD is definitely the exception, not the rule. The longevity and quality of that MUD is not common in the hobbyist arena by any means. It is certainly something the admins (both current and historical) should be very proud of.

Furthermore, keep in mind that what I am talking about here is the perception of players/customers. A very large number of players prefer the professionally run MUDs - and one of the reasons is that they believe them to be more stable and reliable. I happen to agree that in the majority of cases, a professionally run mud is less prone to the random sways of interest hobbyist admins may have. I do admit, however, that there are exceptions to this rule, and there are hobbyist muds that do indeed end up being as stable and reliable as professional ones.

But the purpose of this list is to benefit players who don't like gambling on hobbyist muds (since most of them are NOT run as well as BatMUD) and would like to know in advance which ones are professionally run.

[the_logos]

I would tend to agree with your logic, nhl, but then it occurs to me that all the oldest extant MUDs are commercial (MUD 2 and Gemstone are certainly older than any non-commercial MUDs, and I think Avalon is as well, though I'm not positive there) and I wonder if the answer is more complicated than it seems at first glance.

--matt

[Fifi]

I would personally never play any of the games on this list. But apparently some people like these games. And like this list. What's the problem? Why is it necessary for every topic to be an argument?

[Baffle]

Originally Posted by (the_logos @ April 13 2006,20:27) I'm not sure how the operations of Eternal City work these days, so I'm not sure if they have paid staff running it or if it's volunteers only now. They might need to be on here.

TEC has at least one paid staff member who focuses mainly on it, as well as several other staff members who occasionally get involved.

[Threshold]

Originally Posted by (Baffle @ April 18 2006,03:00) Originally Posted by (the_logos @ April 13 2006,20:27) I'm not sure how the operations of Eternal City work these days, so I'm not sure if they have paid staff running it or if it's volunteers only now. They might need to be on here. TEC has at least one paid staff member who focuses mainly on it, as well as several other staff members who occasionally get involved.

I was wondering about The Eternal City, because I thought they might be a professionally run mud.

Do you know if they are a legally incorporated business entity?

Is TEC's owner(s)/operator(s) a paid employee whose full time job is TEC?

If so, they definitely quality for the list.

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (Threshold @ April 19 2006,15:42) TEC has at least one paid staff member who focuses mainly on it, as well as several other staff members who occasionally get involved.

I was wondering about The Eternal City, because I thought they might be a professionally run mud.

Do you know if they are a legally incorporated business entity?

Is TEC's owner(s)/operator(s) a paid employee whose full time job is TEC?

If so, they definitely quality for the list.[/quote]
Well, Eternal City was developed and used to be run by World's Apart Productions (which is a company, not just a DBA), but Eternal City is now published through Skotos.net. Neither the main owner of Skotos or the main owner of World's Apart has much to do with running Eternal City these days, but I don't know if someone else runs TEC as a full-time job or not. I'd guess not as Skotos doesn't really make enough money to afford to have someone running each of their games full-time.

--matt

[Estarra]

Speaking of Skotos and Eternal City, I noticed their websites are down. Anyone know what's up with that?

[Lark]

I wish I had arms long enough to push you kids together in the sandbox and make you play nice. Where's Medievia? So harsh.

Medievia certainly sounds like a commercial mud, people there have a fiscal interest in keeping things moving, and although they have volunteers, it again sounded like this was true for several of the people already listed here. I mean, jeez, Soleil's signature says she's the Director of Media and Marketing. And they've got an 'Inc.' after their name! Unless Medievia's actually a couple of kids playing pretend, (I still have my old crayon letterheads from 'Ninjas Ink.&#39 I'd say they're a business.

I know sometime in the past there was supposed to be some sort of cheating, something like that, with the voting system here. If that's the reason Medievia's slid past the list a few times, I don't really see any reason for it. The average mudder doesn't give a #### about votes, generally, the muds do. You figure that noise out amongst yourselves; in the meantime, though, Joe C. Macro wants to play muds with a vested commercial interest in providing a fun gaming experience.

(His cousin, Doug E. Mote, went to the other thread. It's just a difference of opinion.)

And I can't help but feel like the thread's title was a bit of a jib. It was one of those ones you can wave off thanks to the flexibility of our language, but still...the choice of words and how fast it moved to the boards makes it pretty suspect.

All the same, though, it's valid, they got their turn, you ought to get yours. But I still think Medievia ought to be up there.

[Lark]

Oh, wow, you censor. Huh.

[Baram]

Medievia is also a Diku dervative and violating the license, hence they are not listed here.

[Valg]

Originally Posted by (Baram @ April 20 2006,06:38) Medievia is also a Diku dervative and violating the license, hence they are not listed here.

On top of the license issue, there's an even more clear-cut case of plagiarism, as they do not properly acknowledge the team that created the codebase that they are based on.

It's why I asked for clarificiation regarding the use of the word "professional" (the primary definition mentions conforming to "technical and ethical standards")-- I'd be fired from my day job in a second for appropriating the work of others as my own.

[Valg]

Originally Posted by (Lark @ April 20 2006,03:11) I mean, jeez, Soleil's signature says she's the Director of Media and Marketing. And they've got an 'Inc.' after their name!

That doesn't matter, however.  Carrion Fields, LLC has official titles for its partners (we have a Copyright Agent, a President, etc.), as part of being a legally recognized business entity.  Charities and other organizations not aimed at taking money from their clients have this for their volunteers as well.

Medievia does have at least one paid employee, which is the difference between them and us.  (We pocket $0-- all funds donated go towards upkeep, bandwidth, etc.)  That's what you should focus on, though it runs into the problems related to their legal issues and professional conduct, as mentioned above.

[Lark]

Ninja's, Ink.
My Backyard, In the Treehouse
North Canton, Ohio
April 20, In the Year of Our Lord Two-Thousand and Six

------------------------------------------------------------------------
With ninjas, your shuriken 2 win!
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. Valg(q?),

If the stationary on which I've written this post didn't suggest it to you already, I've been known to do something in jest, once in a while. I'm sorry I had to stretch a bad joke this far to illustrate it. So you don't have to take my first quote as literally as you did in your post. I understand that fancy names aren't regulated by the government.


To further address Medievia's legitamacy, let me point out that a lot of 'professional' companies aren't necessarily 'ethical'. A good example is sitting right in front of me. Microsoft had to be slapped on the hand and broken into a few chunks to satisfy our ideas on fair play, but I think you'd have a hard time contesting their professionalism. At any rate, it certainly hasn't stopped business.

I can empathize with the dilemma of these coding teams trying to cope with licensing issues, but will that make any difference to people who try out Medievia and like it?

Especially, given the nature of an average mudder who enjoys 'professionally developed' games. If they don't mind the fact that using money can simply 'speed up' a normal process of gameplay, maybe they'll see Medievia's operation despite license claims as a means of them speeding up their own growth before a successful litigation.

To me, that's just the cut-and-thrust of the business world. Having an 'Inc.' at the end of your name means that in some people's eyes you've destroyed the rainforest, or smashed small mom-and-pop operations to bits in your conquest for monopoly. That's really not true in most cases, but you're still forced to bear the same title as others you feel are suspect.

And on the same token, people who enjoy games that have been described as 'viagara muds' by their detractors will gravitate to other games receiving that same criticism, despite the real intricacies and circumstances that make one person's corporate agenda different from another's.

So, to me, there's the rub of it. People in the other thread who've made their own original worlds may not enjoy rubbing elbows with muds that have taken their cues from popular animation and movies, but they'd still be obliged to do the same, if in fact they hold to that same 'for the people' policy this thread's taken up.


Yours in nitpicking,

Jimmy
Senior Mutant Turtle Consultant

[AshtonEndal]

Add Legends of Terris in there, it was up on AOL when Gemstone, Modus Operandi, and DragonRealms was there (but it stayed when they left).

[Davairus]

Eh.. So I spoke to a non-mudding capitalist economics major, who I think is a pretty good authority on this issue, and on track for graduating next year, about the "Free" vs "Free to Play" issue. She gave me this reply pretty much immediately (paraphrased)..

"If the content is not all *immediately* accessible for free, and paying for it only saves the input of time otherwise taken to get it, then its ok to call it 'free to play'. Since Time = Money."

We added surges on AR (automated double exp periods) precisely so that older players with limited time can still make a competitive character within a few weeks, without spending money on it. Essentially, what we did there is make some limited "time" more valuable instead of introducing "money". (It also congregates our playerbase which is getting more important to do with the declining numbers muds are suffering nowadays - we had 60 people online a few weeks ago.)


These lists could (should?) be accompanied with the advantages and disadvantages of both models to help gamers to decide who to throw their boat in with. For example, if a mud is 100% free, but has limited eq, obviously there's going to be people accumulating it until they're uber, especially cleric types that are designed to take a beating. The pay model gives a way around that, that isnt a 5 man gank party... or a cheese assassinate, or b