[Threshold]

This thread is to list (alphabetically) MUDs that are run by professional game developers who are paid to work on that MUD.

Achaea
Aetolia
Dragonrealms
Gemstone
Imperian
Lusternia
Threshold

I know there are a few more.

[Rhuarc]

How about professional game developers who work on their muds on the side? If those count, add Tarmon Gaidon to your list.

[Threshold]

Originally Posted by (Rhuarc @ April 13 2006,17:59) How about professional game developers who work on their muds on the side? If those count, add Tarmon Gaidon to your list.

That's interesting, but this is a list for MUDs that are professionally run by professional game developers whose job it is to work on that mud. Some players prefer a gaming experience where the people (or person) running the MUD does so as their full time job. For some players, this provides them with a sense of stability, permanence, and accountability that does not exist in MUDs that are more hobbyist in nature.

There are many excellent MUDs that are run as a hobby - some of them are, in some ways, as good as (or perhaps better) as MUDs that are professionally run. The purpose of this list is not to debate that question. With that said, there is also no denying that there are many players who prefer to invest their gaming time in a community that is professionally managed, maintained, and developed.

This is a list for MUDs whose operator(s) are professional game developers whose main, full time job is the maintenance, management, and development of that MUD.

[KaVir]

I think you'll find that the majority of the staff on the muds you've listed are volunteers.

I guess you got a bit upset about missing out on the 'free mud listing', huh? :P

[Milawe]

Originally Posted by (KaVir @ April 13 2006,18:14) I guess you got a bit upset about missing out on the 'free mud listing', huh?

That would be kind of silly since we don't list ourselves as a free mud. That would be kinda like me being upset about being off a "hot guys" list... being female and all.

[KaVir]

Well it's pretty obvious that this is just an attempt to hit back in response to the thread about free muds. Rather childish, if you ask me.

[Threshold]

Originally Posted by (KaVir @ April 13 2006,18:14) I think you'll find that the majority of the staff on the muds you've listed are volunteers.

Fortunately, the criteria for this list is not that all staff must be professionals.

Originally Posted by (KaVir @ April 13 2006,18:14) I guess you got a bit upset about missing out on the 'free mud listing', huh?

Why would I want to be on a list of free MUDs when I quite openly state that Threshold is not a free MUD. That would be like accusing me of being upset about missing out on a list of stock muds, hack-n-slash MUDs, or some other category of MUD that does not apply of Threshold.

KaVir, as a moderator of the TMS forums, your use of this thread to make a personal attack is very inappropriate. I did not attack or criticise anyone in any way. There are perfectly legitimate reasons for a list such as this. Many players prefer a professional experience to a hobbyist one. Please respect that fact.

[KaVir]

I'm not making "personal attacks", nor am I the moderator of this forum. Your thread is blatant flamebait, and it's pretty obvious to anyone reading this forum that you're just offended at the idea of a mud list which you cannot participate in.

Ironic that a so-called "professional" mud could demonstrate such an unprofessional attitude, but perhaps not entirely surprising, all things considered.

[Threshold]

Originally Posted by (KaVir @ April 13 2006,18:29) I'm not making "personal attacks", nor am I the moderator of this forum. Your thread is blatant flamebait, and it's pretty obvious to anyone reading this forum that you're just offended at the idea of a mud list which you cannot participate in. Ironic that a so-called "professional" mud could demonstrate such an unprofessional attitude, but perhaps not entirely surprising, all things considered.

KaVir, please be serious. This was not only a personal attack, but it was COMPLETELY off topic:

"I guess you got a bit upset about missing out on the 'free mud listing', huh?"

Furthermore, you can try to impute whatever phantom motives upon me you choose, but that does not make them true.

A list of free MUDs (as defined by Anitra, since she started the thread) has a value to potential players looking for the right MUD for them.

A list of MUDs run by professionals (as defined by me, since I started the thread) also has a value to potential players looking for the right MUD for them.

How can you possibly not realize there is a totally logical and legitimate purpose behind BOTH kinds of lists?

To make an analogy, some people use Chemlawn for their lawn care, some people hire Bob the local Gardner/Handyman, and some people make their kids cut the grass and pull the weeds. Different people have different preferences. Some want a professional experience. Some what a hobbyist/homegrown experience. Some want a bargain/free experience. I say give people the information and let them choose. More people finding MUDs that are fun and right for them is good for the entire hobby of MUDding.

Why is a list of free muds the only type of list that has any value in your eyes? Furthermore, why do you have to turn everything into a flame war? Can't you just let a thread stay on topic? I did ask you nicely, after all.

[Milawe]

Originally Posted by (KaVir @ April 13 2006,18:20) Well it's pretty obvious that this is just an attempt to hit back in response to the thread about free muds. Rather childish, if you ask me.

It could be that, or it could be that someone came up with a really good idea that another person decided to emmulate. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

I really don't see how it's an attempt to "hit back" when in the same post that lists commerical muds he acknowledged that several hobbyist muds are exceptional. It's simply an appropriate list for our mud that is inspired by a different list and a different poster.

The immediate jump to flaming is what seems childish to me.

[Fern]

Is there a point to this thread? And if so, why is it in Advertising for Players?

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by (Threshold @ April 14 2006,00:40) A list of free MUDs (as defined by Anitra, since she started the thread) has a value to potential players looking for the right MUD for them. A list of MUDs run by professionals (as defined by me, since I started the thread) also has a value to potential players looking for the right MUD for them.

A list of free muds has obvious value to players, as it gives them a way to find muds which have no costs (either obvious or hidden). It has become increasingly apparent that there is a demand for this sort of information.

But what possible value could your list provide? A list of pay-to-play muds, sure. A list of pay-for-perks muds, certainly. But it makes absolutely no difference to the players whether or not Bubba decides to quit his day job at McDonalds and live off "donations", rather than using the money to supplement his burger-flipping income.

Originally Posted by Why is a list of free muds the only type of list that has any value in your eyes?

It's not - in fact, for a long time I tried to push for the option to list pay-for-perks muds, but without success. If you were to put together a list of pay-to-play muds, or pay-for-perks muds, then I think that would be of definite use.

But I see absolutely no value whatsoever in your proposal here. It was quite clearly written to cause offense, with no thought behind giving it any actual value to potential players.

[Milawe]

Originally Posted by (KaVir @ April 13 2006,18:51) But I see absolutely no value whatsoever in your proposal here. It was quite clearly written to cause offense, with no thought behind giving it any actual value to potential players.

Some things that do not have value to you may have value to others. Believe it or not, some people WANT to pay for a stable game with staff devoted to the game first and foremost.

I am truly boggled by why anyone would be offended by any of these lists. The free muds list, like you said, lists mud that come at no costs at all. I totally can understand why someone might be interested in that even if I, personally, would not be. The last 3 free muds I played all shut down with a lot of tears from the players. They also had multiple player wipes (which I absolutely hate). [Edit starting here. Forgot the second part of my point.] I now play only pay to play games run by big companies. That's a personal choice on my part, but I don't think I'm the ONLY person who thinks this way. Thus, there's value in both sets of lists. I'm sure there'd be value in any of the lists that people want to make on this information sharing site.

Heck, I'd love it if someone made a list of muds with were-hippos.

Anyway, why start flaming and taking offense when none was obviously meant?

[Anitra]

You forgot Medievia, the most 'professional' of them all.

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by (Mina @ April 14 2006,01:01) Believe it or not, some people WANT to pay for a stable game with staff devoted to the game first and foremost.

Right - so why not make a list of pay-to-play and/or pay-for-perks muds?

[Threshold]

Originally Posted by (KaVir @ April 13 2006,18:51) But what possible value could your list provide? ... But it makes absolutely no difference to the players whether or not Bubba decides to quit his day job at McDonalds and live off "donations", rather than using the money to supplement his burger-flipping income. ... But I see absolutely no value whatsoever in your proposal here. It was quite clearly written to cause offense, with no thought behind giving it any actual value to potential players.

How can you actually type those words and expect to be taken seriously?

Are you honestly going to claim that there are not players out there who prefer a completely PROFESSIONAL experience when deciding where to invest their gaming time and money? There is a level of comfort and security a customer has when they know the person providing the service relies upon that service for their livelihood.

Can you really not understand that there is a sizeable chunk of players out there who have more faith in a FINANCIAL MOTIVE (which exists on a commercial, professionally run MUD) than a good will motive?

Isn't the fact that commercial, professionally run MUDs send about 80% of the traffic to TMS pretty good evidence that there are indeed a lot of people for whom this distinction is actually quite meaningful?

The top Hobbyist MUD administrators often claim that their muds have as rich a feature set as many professionally run MUDs. I happen to agree that this is true in some cases. So why do the professionally run MUDs have so many more players? One of the reasons is because some people PREFER a professionally run game to a hobbyist game. They like knowing that the operators have a simple, basic, financial motive to do things like drive out to the server hosting facility at 4am if it has to be done, purchase redundant hardware and bandwidth, and a whole host of other things that are really not necessary, expected, or feasible in a non-professionally run MUD. Your proverbial burger-flipper can't reboot the server if he's pulling a double-shift at McDonalds. Many players are not comfortable with that fact.

You cannot reasonably or logically claim that the distinction of professionally run vs. hobbyist run does not matter to many MUD players. The proof is right in front of you demonstrated by the traffic of this site and the userbases of the games in the MUD community.

Now, I would appreciate it if you would stop engaging in amateur psychoanalysis in claiming I have some nefarious motive for this list. I do not. I was never critical of the free mud list, and there is no reason you should be critical of this list. Both lists serve very legitimate purposes and have value to players with difference sets of preferences. If one list is valuable, then both are.

Can't you just leave it at that? So far, it seems like all you want to do is turn everything into a flame war. That is disappointing.

[Threshold]

Originally Posted by (KaVir @ April 13 2006,19[img http://www.topmudsites.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif[/img])] Right - so why not make a list of pay-to-play and/or pay-for-perks muds?

Why not stay on topic, avoid personal attacks, and stop trying to turn every thread you don't like into a flame war?

If you think such a list has value, make the list/thread yourself. I happen to know that for a lot of people, it is the professional/full time component that matters a lot to them, so I chose that as the criteria for this list.

If Blizzard, Mythic, or a variety of other professional game companies made a free game, I'd try it. It isn't the fact that they charge money for their games that makes me willing to try them, it is the fact that they are professionals and it is their job to make those games. They have a financial motive to try and run them well, and that makes me feel comfortable investing my increasingly scarce gaming time in playing them. Heck, I recently tried Horizons and Shadowbane because they have just become free and yet were run by the same professional staff, yet I don't have the time to try out free, hobbyist run games these days.

In short, for some gamers, "free" or "not free" is not the salient point that matters most. But knowing a game is run by professionals whose job is to make that game good (and are not distracted by the committments of a different job) IS something that matters a lot to many people.

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by (Threshold @ April 14 2006,01:12) Originally Posted by (KaVir @ April 13 2006,18:51) But it makes absolutely no difference to the players whether or not Bubba decides to quit his day job at McDonalds and live off "donations", rather than using the money to supplement his burger-flipping income. How can you actually type those words and expect to be taken seriously?

Okay. You tell me. What value is there to the prospective player to know that Bubba is now making his income purely through the mud, rather than from a mixture of the mud and flipping burgers at McDonalds?

A list of pay-to-play muds? Useful.

A list of pay-for-perks muds? Useful.

A list of commercial muds run by registered businesses? Useful.

A list of muds run by people who live off the income? Useless. It doesn't mean Bubba's going to put any more time into his mud, or that he has good programming or administrative skills or a professional attitude, or that his mud is going to be around for a long time, or anything else for that matter. I've seen muds like this many times over the years - some unemployed guy discovers that he can leech a bit of cash from his players. Is that really the sort of mud you want to promote?

[Threshold]

Originally Posted by (KaVir @ April 13 2006,19:27) Okay. You tell me. What value is there to the prospective player to know that Bubba is now making his income purely through the mud, rather than from a mixture of the mud and flipping burgers at McDonalds?

I already told you. Please read my posts more carefully.

Furthermore, you are derailing my thread, just as Valg (the moderator of this forum) cautioned other people not to do in Anitra's thread.

If you don't like this list, fine.

If you actually want to claim (and completly destroy your credibility in the process) that there are not players who value knowing if a mud is professionally run, also fine.

But your posts in this thread are 100% off topic and should be removed.

[nhl]

Originally Posted by It doesn't mean Bubba's going to put any more time into his mud, or that he has good programming or administrative skills or a professional attitude, or that his mud is going to be around for a long time, or anything else for that matter.  I've seen muds like this many times over the years - some unemployed guy discovers that he can leech a bit of cash from his players.  Is that really the sort of mud you want to promote?

None of the MUDs on the list fall into the category of being run by an unemployed guy who just wants to ripoff players. I atleast find the list interesting and useful.

On the other hand, I find your comments in this thread to be totally idiotic, flamatory and unwarranted, so why don't you do us all a favor and get lost from this thread, since you obviously have nothing of value to add to it.

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by (Threshold @ April 14 2006,01:33) Originally Posted by (KaVir @ April 13 2006,19:27) Okay.  You tell me.  What value is there to the prospective player to know that Bubba is now making his income purely through the mud, rather than from a mixture of the mud and flipping burgers at McDonalds? I already told you.

No, you told me some points which would apply to commercial mud run by a registered business. None of them would apply to Bubba, however, who could quite happily join your list.

Originally Posted by If you actually want to claim (and completly destroy your credibility in the process) that there are not players who value knowing if a mud is professionally run, also fine.

Well that depends on what your definition of 'professional' is. Based on your definition, in which unemployeed stock mud owners are 'professionals' while the Blizzard team creating a free game in their spare time are not? No, I don't think that would be of value to prospective players.

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by (nhl @ April 14 2006,01:34) None of the MUDs on the list fall into the category of being run by an unemployed guy who just wants to ripoff players.

Well it's an open list - feel free to update it.

[Baram]

Funny how the list of free games gets "protected" from hijacking, when this one doesn't seem to get the same "protection."

Anyway, Persistent Realms will fall into this category. Once Ilyrias, our first game, is done I will be doing only work on our games and the overall company. I'd love to do it now, in the development stage, but wives are expensive and it's just not possible to live without other income.

[Traveler]

Ooh, look at all the derailment, now you how it feels when Matt posts in an otherwise productive thread.

[the_logos]

Other ones that should be on there:
* Avalon
* Medievia

I'm not sure how the operations of Eternal City work these days, so I'm not sure if they have paid staff running it or if it's volunteers only now. They might need to be on here. The same goes for Modus Operandi and Alliance of Heroes (other, very small, Simutronics text MUDS. I don't know if those two games are big enough to have paid staff working on them or not.

--matt

[Baram]

Avalon is still kicking? Only time I hear that name, expecially when it comes from players, there's never nice words around it.

[Hadoryu]

KaVir, you answered my question on the other thread and I was satisfied with the answer. The answer was :

Originally Posted by I don't think that's the important question. The important question is: Do enough of the non-commercial mud owners believe that they're at a disadvantage, and do they believe so strongly enough to put aside their differences and do something about it?

I'm fairly sure you could apply the same here - it's a perhaps perceived disadvantage and a group effort to advertise. They have their right to do so just as any other group of MUDs does.

[DonathinFrye]

Originally Posted by I'm fairly sure you could apply the same here - it's a perhaps perceived disadvantage and a group effort to advertise. They have their right to do so just as any other group of MUDs does.

I think the conceived insult does not necessarily come directly from the poster's post-text so much as even the name of the thread itself(implying that Professional Game Developers cannot run 100% Free MUDs, which is not true), as well as the timing to compare with the 100% Free MUD Advertising thread.

I won't go further off-topic and continue to post in this thread, and I think it is indirectly in everyone's best interest if we don't further the argument with the poster/etc, as it only fuels what is probably a negative-intentioned thread.

[Emil]

The fact that Medievia was just invited to join the 'professioan list' by the_logos really says a lot about both.

Hope you enjoy the company, Threshold.

[Hadoryu]

Originally Posted by (DonathinFrye @ April 14 2006,04:53) Originally Posted by I'm fairly sure you could apply the same here - it's a perhaps perceived disadvantage and a group effort to advertise. They have their right to do so just as any other group of MUDs does. I think the conceived insult does not necessarily come directly from the poster's post-text so much as even the name of the thread itself(implying that Professional Game Developers cannot run 100% Free MUDs, which is not true), as well as the timing to compare with the 100% Free MUD Advertising thread. I won't go further off-topic and continue to post in this thread, and I think it is indirectly in everyone's best interest if we don't further the argument with the poster/etc, as it only fuels what is  probably a negative-intentioned thread.

This thread is just as much negative and flaim-bait as the other one. And it was already clarified that it wasn't a matter of professional game developers running 100% free MUDs, it was a matter of commercial motive.