[enigma@zebedee]

Well my recent topic on muds with Optional Role Playing seemed to get quite a bit of interest so I thought it might be interesting to see just how many people on here really prefer the different styles.

[Crystal]

Since it's all about preference, Roleplaying Required for me.

[enigma@zebedee]

Yup all about preference.

An interesting thing to find out would be how the population who read/post here differs from Mudders at large.

i.e. Posters here I would expect for the most part to be experienced and/or enthusiastic mudders. Probably most are coders to some degree.

Unfortunately without a poll of everyone who doesn't have an account here (and that would be an interesting one to try and get any votes in! ) there is no way to tell.

Hmm. Isn't statistics fun when you can ponder all the questions and don't actually need to produce answers

[Spazmatic]

I think I'm fairly close to the target when I say that you'll find a lot more roleplayers (percentage-wise) here than in the mudding community at large. It may very well be that, while a hack'n'slash player can get by with limited contact with his/her surroundings (though many become very involved!, roleplayers must live and breathe the community, the administration, and so forth. Thus, they seem more likely to be involved in such a community site as TMS. I have no idea what level of discrepancy exists, but I'm fairly confident it leans in that direction.

Note, I'm all for roleplay required, which takes up 99% of my mudding time (the remainder being PK). Not to say non-roleplay or roleplay-encouraged are bad.

[John]

I wonder if it's because it's harder to build a sense of community when everyone is out to kill each other. Sure in RP muds everyone might be out to get each other, but that's ICly.

I imagine it'd be harder to seperate In-Game and Out-Of-Game in the same way in a PK H&S mud.

[Spazmatic]

On the other hand, look at it this way... RPIs versus hack'n'slash... In an RPI, no global channels. That's going to hurt the ease with which people join the community, and the ease of gossip and so forth. I'm not saying that RPIs are bad, I love RPIs, and I'm not saying that this is going to kill a community, since RPIs have such thriving communities. I'm just saying, if an RPI can do it without a global channel, hack'n'slash can do it, even if there's some friendly competition going on. After all, I can play soccer and not try to murder my opponent in his sleep, I think I can get along with some fellow mudders.

[enigma@zebedee]

Yeeh, it's always amusing at the regular IRL meets we hold to see pker and victim meeting for the first time.

Especially when the 6 foot bodybuilder discovers that his pride and joy fighter got creamed by a mage played by a skiny 4 foot tall nerd with glasses

Ok, stereotypes but you get the idea

We have never really had any problems though, a bit of friendly jibing is about all - although people have been known to get a bit 'excited' on the MUD and sometimes need to be asked to cool it down a bit.

[Sally]

See, I both Mud and Mush/Mux.

Usually I like to keep them separate. My vote was considering a Mud environment. A Mush, it's RP Required for me.

[Earthmother]

I love killing things, so HnS is all me, but I also love to be
a nice lil priestly type person, who wanders about helping
folks and doing what I think my Guild should do. I couldn't
handle RPI's, because I also feel the need to vent RL isses
from time to time over global channels. I enjoy my home
mud's encouragement of character intensely, and many of
the folks there seem to really get "into" their characters in
order to add to the atmosphere, but we're also fairly laid
back about OOC channel yap. In fact, we don't even use
the terms IC and OOC...scary, huh? Still, somehow, there is
a real sense of community and world around the Mud, and
the "encouraged" is pretty strong.

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by See, I both Mud and Mush/Mux. Usually I like to keep them separate

A curious perspective, considering that MUX is derived from MUSH which is a derivative of MUCK, which is a derivative of TinyMUD, which was inspired by MIST, which is derived from MUD.

It's a bit like saying you like to keep "vehicles" separate from Jaguar XJ220's.

MUCK, Merc, MUSH, ROM, LP, Aber...they are all muds.

[Wenlin]

Encouraged.

You're free to be OOC, and when you try and roleplay, you won't get funny looks.

[enigma@zebedee]

So it looks like most people (on here at least) are definately on the role-playing side.

Not surprising really - but interesting to see...

[Songsworn_Draconita]

I prefer (strongly! encouraged role-play, myself.

[Marynne]

The main reason I don't much care for Roleplay required is, quite honestly, I don't like being told how to RP... every MUD I have ever played where RP is required, rather then encouraged, there have been RP-Nazis who go about making fun of other people's roleplay, telling them they can't be a tall faerie, or a short elf, or this or that. Saying their ogre can't be smart, or their human can't act like he was raised by ogres. These kinds of people will always develop in any forum where they think they can force their RP on others, simply because RP is required. It is one thing to have to RP around someone wrapping their hands around your throat, quite another to RP around someone telling you you are the exact opposite of what you are. (If that makes any sense.) In realms where RP is simply encouraged, people can feel a little freer, and the RP-Nazis will be in less abundance, simply because it would be more difficult for them to get away with.


Nickie

[Jazuela]

Originally Posted by (Marynne @ April 07 2003,09:02) The main reason I don't much care for Roleplay required is, quite honestly, I don't like being told how to RP... every MUD I have ever played where RP is required, rather then encouraged, there have been RP-Nazis who go about making fun of other people's roleplay, telling them they can't be a tall faerie, or a short elf, or this or that. Saying their ogre can't be smart, or their human can't act like he was raised by ogres. These kinds of people will always develop in any forum where they think they can force their RP on others, simply because RP is required. It is one thing to have to RP around someone wrapping their hands around your throat, quite another to RP around someone telling you you are the exact opposite of what you are. (If that makes any sense.) In realms where RP is simply encouraged, people can feel a little freer, and the RP-Nazis will be in less abundance, simply because it would be more difficult for them to get away with. Nickie

I take great issue with bandying around the term RP-Nazi when used to describe people who roleplay in roleplay-enforced games. First of all the political implication of the word Nazi, which already presumes you have lost your arguement merely by bringing it up according to "someoneorother's law."

But also because in a roleplay-enforced game, you -are- expected to play a human AS a human, if the documentation of the game world precludes your ability to play him as a half-wolf or half-ogre or whatever.

If the game documentation specifies that humans are ALL born and raised into human communities, then there is no room for interpretation, and this limitation is intentional, and any detraction from it, is a distraction to the roleplaying environment.

If faeries don't exist as a race in a RP-enforced environment, then people who tell you that you're RPing your "faerie human" WRONG, are- right. And not simply "RP-Nazis." You do not have the right to show up in a game and change its rules to suit your own selfish desires.

Just as I would never go to a "No RP allowed" game and try and roleplay, you shouldn't go to a "this is the way the world IS" kind of game and try and do something other than what is available to you given the documentation.

That doesn't make us RP-Nazis. It makes us people who want to preserve the game world in the game we're playing. It also makes you someone who doesn't respect the game world we are trying to preserve.

[Alaire]

Limitations in rp are incredibly valuable when set in order to create certain dynamics in the game world.   While you might want to play a smart ogre, if the documentation provided for the game suggests that such a thing does not exist, that bit of knowledge is there for more reasons than 'trying to keep the ogres down, man!'.

While these rp rules may be considered limiting, in reality they open up a broad spectrum of rp possibilities.  Dynamics within races, between classes, families, or any number of other distinctions create an automatic rp scenario that has already been developed within the context of the game world and that world's history.  It keeps that world's theme consistant, rather than a blubbering mess of random thoughts, making rp more in depth and satisfying for those who prefer high-level rp.

And I'm not a nazi.  Thank you. :b

[Spazmatic]

At times, I get these urges to play something really cool (or so I think at the time), but no, it's not allowed! The thing is, when that urge passes (and it almost always seems to for things truly forbidden), it makes sense that it was not allowed. The concept of a semi-intelligent ogre may not be out of the question, but Niels Bonk the ogre physicist may be genetically impossible. And, no matter what the explanation, Bonk's model of the atom could be completely out of place, shattering any consistency the world may have.

If people are randomly coming up to you and saying, "You can't do this, you can't do that" without any support, any reason, any rules/administrative decisions to back them up, that's not right. But, from how I read your post, you're more at odds with the fact that RP enforced worlds have detailed regulations to the impossibilities within that world. Yet, it is precisely those regulations that make the world so infinitely malleable. Forever in a nutshell, essentially, since the rules give you a world and ideas which you can actually mold, rather than running amuck in a childish make-believe session (not to say RP-encouraged is childish, but RP-encouraged without some semblance of world is certainly, just as RP-enforced without a semblance of world is so as well).

I wouldn't want to roleplay with someone who played a half-ogre, half-wolf, half-superman character (and the math is on purpose). Is it a stretch that, in a world where ogres were bred by sorcerors to be menial laborers and were thus granted eensy weensy brains, I would not want to roleplay with a "smart" ogre that defied all sanity? Consistency.

These worlds have rules for a reason. Without them, the world becomes inconsistent, and there is no backdrop. It becomes chidlren's play time set in a virtually nonexistant world. If I wanted that, I would go to a daycare.

[Jazuela]

Don't insult daycares. In fact, let's USE daycare as a real-world analogy and perhaps the nay-sayers will see the point.

In a daycare, there are very strict rules. No hitting, no biting, no pooping on the rug. There are consequences for violations of these rules, some of which are severe. A continual disruptor, who hits, bites, -and- poops on the rug regularly will eventually be returned to the parent and told not to bother bringing the child back next week.

In daycare, nap time means nap time. It doesn't mean wander off into the hallway, it doesn't mean throw the toys from the bin across the room, it doesn't mean pretend your neighbor is the Roadrunner and your bendy-straw is the Acme Pea-Shooter.

In daycare, there are TONS of things you can do to have fun, most of which are designed to teach you socialization skills (assuming it's a properly-run daycare, anyway). There are also TONS of things you cannot do, most of which are designed to promote a sense of civility and personal responsibility.

Just as in a RP-enforced environment, there are boundaries beyond which you cannot go. If the world is set up coherently and logically, then these boundaries exist for a reason. Violations of these boundaries by the players are akin to hitting, biting, and pooping on the rug.

If you want to hit, bite, and poop on a rug, play a game that doesn't care about boundaries. If you want to "play well with others" and get high marks for "sharing," then delve deep into the RP world. That's what it's for.

[Sanvean]

Unless you want to roleplay pooping on the rug, in which case you might want to try DayCareMUD.

But seriously...

I hit this a lot of times. People submit characters that either show they have no clue what our world is like, or that go against the guidelines. Examples of the first: the indigo-eyed Drow elf (we have no Drow); the beautiful human cyborg (we do not have a tech level capable of supporting cyborgs, who would be immediately killed for the metal in their bodies) or the red-bearded pirate king (our world consists of deserts). Sometimes they've simply missed a point in the docs, such as the hairy-browed dwarf (dwarves on Zalanthas have no hair) and I'm glad to work with those folk - but if someone hasn't taken the time to skim our intro page and realize there's no seas in the world, it's frustrating because they'll produce a concept that takes a lot of work to adjust to our setting - and often will react indignantly to being told that it won't work.

People going against the guidelines is a little greyer - but over the decade we've been around, the discussion's been raised multiple times. Elves don't ride, for example, on Zalanthas - long-legged desert runners that they are, they see it as shameful, an admission of weakness, to resort to a mount. But every once in a while we get someone who insists that his or her elf has a compelling reason to be the only elf in the world that rides a kank. Among the problems this presents is that it perpetuates itself - a new player sees the riding elf and does the same with their next elvish character - and when asked to stop, reacts with "But I saw character Blah doing it!"

I think it's more interesting to play within the guidelines than t try to rewrite them to suit yourself - but then again, as an administrator, I've got a vested interest in saying that. But one of the things that makes the mud rich in texture and story, in my opinion, are those guidelines and the consistency of play they create. Is the character concept that strays outside them so compelling that it justifies breaking the feel of the world? I've yet to see one that (again, in my opinion) does, but I'm also willing to admit one might exist.

[Marynne]

I was referring to people who force THEIR version of RP on others, not people who enforce the GAME'S RULES on everyone. The realm I play in is RP Enforced. But, there are not strict guidlines to certain races and such. What I am talking about are people who decide, by themselves, not by virtue of game mechanics, that you are wrong. Obviously, someone takes great offense at this. Wonder if they've been told a time or two to not do this. Sorry if I offended you. I don't know you. I was speaking specifically about people who go out of their way to force others to RP the way they like. People who get uncomfortable if everything isn't done their way. We have a number of those on my MUD, and I, quite honestly, try to avoid RPing with them. They are the main reason many 'newbies' don't come back.

[Alaire]

Originally Posted by The main reason I don't much care for Roleplay required is, quite honestly, I don't like being told how to RP... every MUD I have ever played where RP is required, rather then encouraged, there have been RP-Nazis who go about making fun of other people's roleplay, telling them they can't be a tall faerie, or a short elf, or this or that.

I don't think anyone is personally offended because you don't like rp enforced muds, but you do say above that you don't like rp enforced muds because people have been rp nazis to you in the past.  You weren't talking about your own mud in your first post (I urge you to go back and reread it), you were specifically pointing to rp required muds, which are more likely to have documentation and character, class, race, familial, etc. limitations to rp based on the game world's history and evolution.

This doesn't make the people who run or play them nazis, it makes them people who enjoy that type of rp environment.

I think the reason that you got the responses that you did is that you really don't seem to have a grasp of the concepts that run most rp intensive MUDs.  I think rp encouraged is more likely up your alley, just based on your posts.  If you don't see the fun and enjoyment of playing within a culture that is well documented and with a character compelling history, there's nothing wrong with that.  It still doesn't make us nazi's when you're in our game-world trying to play your smart ogre, and we tell you so.  It just means there is a certain flavor and richness to the game world that depends on certain limitations and restrictions.

By the way, I'm not sure how you can have an rp 'enforced' mud without history and documentation and certain limitations.  I'm confused by this concept.  What is the point?  What are you roleplaying?  I am really curious, so I'm hoping someone can give me some feedback.
Thanks much.

[Kallekins]

I agree somewhat with Marynne here.
I'm all for enforcing certain rules for what it acceptable to RP and what isn't, however, the lines can be blurry. What then stops people from going from saying "Elves never ride horses." to "You shouldn't act serious. Elves are always happy-go-lucky." and eventually, "People who RP mutes annoy me. You should change your RP." ?
A lot of people out there like telling people what to do and how to roleplay, and once you give them a little, they can become very authoritarian. ÊWhat constitutes 'good RP' is subjective, and unless the guildelines are very clear on the website or helpfiles, I don't like people to go around enforcing them.
However, this isn't limited to rp enforced muds. It depends more on the atmosphere, and how laid back people are.

Oh, and mute rps really do annoy me, but I try very hard not to go around telling them that.

[enigma@zebedee]

Wow, I start a simple poll and before I know it there are 3000 posts and lots of agreved role playing enforcers

I am sure the post about role playing enforced wasn't meant as bad as it sounds. I have met enough people who always have to interfere to know how annoying they are though.

In a way I suppose it's similar to Live Role Play.

You see people who have obviously improvised their costume together and it isn't really right yet. And that doesn't bother me, because at least they have tried - ####, my costume wasn't much better when I started.

But you then get some &*^& out there in a pair of bermuda shorts and a T-shirt and that really annoys me.


So, what is the point of this post? Well some people might have a go at the people in the first example - who are trying but aren't there yet. Those people are the 'RP Nazis'.

On the other hand anyone having a go at the person in the second example has my full support.

[Spazmatic]

First, I'd like to state very clearly that I screen descriptions (with the prize on the other end being newbie cash). If someone walks in a fiery demon god into a cyberpunk mu*, I'm going to politely guide them to the background. If they still resist, too bad. If they try, and it takes us an hour of work to get a reasonable description, that's perfectly fine. That's what I will call good RP enforced.

Bad RP enforced is when people decide that something strange and unusual, but only that, not illegal!, is wrong. This is what I see the argument thus far as being. One side sees only the first, the other only the second.

Here's what I will say about it. RP enforced environments are not themselves more conducive to such behavior as bad RP enforcement. In fact, by the very nature of having the boundaries so strictly defined they do the opposite, giving a new player a foundation to defend their character. On the contrary, if a big bad player on an RP enforced mud says you're character is wrong, how are you going to defend yourself? The only reason I see this occuring in RP enforced environments more often (possibly) is that, in RP enforced environments, there is a higher bar for realism. That said, I think this is all a big misunderstanding, and the thread should probably suffer a brutal seizure and never see the light of day again.

But, I would like to say I've had a lot of people say that I'm too strict with newbies, and newbies tell me that I'm a stickler and driving them away. On the other hand, most of those people just aren't wanted (not saying you're not wanted). My primary mud has, amongst other things, medical helpfiles on the aging, common diseases, etc of the "races", if you want to call them that. I've seen people walk in and strut around characters who have all the powers that come with something, but none of the problems. That's just not right, and I think that sort of unbalancing is one of the major things that RP enforced eliminates. Clear rules = reasonable characters.

Oh, and Jazuela... That is the most beautiful post I have ever seen... Feel free to tear apart my analogies any time!

[shadowfyr]

There seems to be the assumption that there is some minor issues seperating the 'RP Required' and 'RP Encouraged' and that if the second group just needs to stop being afraid of what is only a small number of morons that try to dictate playing. Then there is the idea that specifying details about a race and making the players play that way is a good thing. I think it is this second matter that is an issue between the two nearly 1/2 of the players that voted in each.

Giving some examples:

1. The pokemon invasion that 'never happened, because no admin would have allowed it', but which I really wish I had been there to see.

2. The one wizard that has declaired himself 'The Duck God of Textual Porn'.

3. The slave of one player that he named Mully and is described as being a 'Highly Cute and Puffy Makeral'.

4. The annual apperance of a Santa Claus in the main city.

These are only just those oddities that I can remember off the top of my head.

In an RP Encouraged mud, you may see things like this, some of them dropped into the world by the admin themselves and others by players. None of them are entirely in theme, any more than the easter egg hunt they also have each year, but as long as they are limited to quirks and oddities that don't completely undermine the game, they are allowed. In an RP enforced and required one, you will never see these things. Yes, it is nice to play by the rules as stated, but once in a while, even in paper based RP, it can be fun to have the summoning spell go completely wrong and end up with a hippie holding a protest sign and wearing a smilee face T-shirt. Personally I prefer living in a virtual world that 'can' occationally contain the patently obsurd player, event or object. It is this that made me vote for 'RP Encouraged' over the other.

[Spazmatic]

Personally, I prefer humorous incongruences that are still within the realm of rules. If a mud sets rules so draconian that humor is not possible, something's wrong. I have, amongst other things, an eight year old gnomen girl with a beard (a bard), and suffice it to say, it is quite odd and at times amusing, but does not require stepping outside the realms of the world. Why would hippies be better than a tree-hugging race of elves (assuming your elves hug trees)?

The strange is when an apprentice casts "flaming hands" and ends up with two sprays of water. Or when the Saint of Giving, servant of the Goddess of Unity, arrives in the city, distributing needed gifts to those who need it... Why must he be Santa?

The argument isn't that the OOC can't exist, either. But Pokemon invasions are decidedly not IC, because, by golly, they make no sense, and belong in the OOC world, accordingly. RP enforced muds enforce RP, they do not police your minds. The hallmark of RP enforced muds is requiring RP on the IC grid, and regulating that RP to some degree or another, preventing rampant insanity and providing a cohesive backdrop. Nothing you stated has decidedly no place in such a world... Only no place in the IC aspect.

[Fey_Obsession]

This is a little confusing for me because I play both an RP encouraged and an enforced MUD.  
   
I agree there is something to be said about the fun spontaneity of RP encouraged MUDs, like an easter egg hunt or a magic potato landing in your hands and giving your chracter super powers.  Yet, I would have to say I prefer the RP enforced atmosphere of a MUD hands down.  It is a huge comfort to be able to walk down the street in a MUD without automatically knowing someones name, or not having to see descriptions like "This woman is the most beautiful woman in the world.  One look and you fall in love with her".
   
Also, I really find the idea of gaining points by murdering things to be... unsettling and a bit boring.  Suppose that's why I haven't 'leveled' a character on my RP encouraged MUD in about.. oh, two years.
   
To those who wish to break out of the set-mold on RP enforced MUDs, maybe ask the staff first?  I've played one or two characters that were different from the established norm, but I discussed it with the staff first and made sure it was good to go.  I don't think admins are that hard to approach, and tend to be rather accepting, especially if you're open to their ideas aswell.  Or.. maybe I've just been lucky! Alaire is the best!

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by I would have to say I prefer the RP enforced atmosphere of a MUD hands down. It is a huge comfort to be able to walk down the street in a MUD without automatically knowing someones name, or not having to see descriptions like "This woman is the most beautiful woman in the world. One look and you fall in love with her".

While I agree with those two points, I fail to see what they have to do with "RP enforced" muds - they are simply features that any mud (including non-RP) can have.