[the_logos]

Antira wrote:

Originally Posted by Muds on the list should fulfil the following three criteria: 1. No in game advantages can be bought for RL money

I know you don't want to hear this, but in that case, no MUD qualifies. There's no way for an administration to claim that in-game advantages cannot be bought for RL money as it's not under the control of the admin. They can only specify that they, as admin policy, disapprove and will punish people retroactively, but at that point, in-game advantages have already been bought.

I'd change this to, "The mud administrators or controlling organization doesn't sell in-game things to the players" though that does have a fairly different meaning from what you wrote above.
--matt

[Fifi]

Originally Posted by (Threshold @ April 09 2006,14:34) Originally Posted by (Valg @ April 07 2006,19:13) As for our inclusion on the list: We don't sell anything that impacts gameplay in the slightest, though we to sell non-game stuff like T-shirts and whatnot to help pay for the costs of operation, if anyone cares.  We don't pay salaries or otherwise "keep" that money, however-- it all goes back into the game. In all fairness, there is no way this does not impact the game at all. Once anyone pays money to the people running the mud for ANY reason, things change. Not only will things change in the minds of the admins themselves, but expectations will change in the minds of the players who buy these things. I am not saying there is anything wrong with this practice, I am just saying that it is naive and unrealistic to claim this has no effect on the game or the way certain individuals are treated (or expect to be treated).

Exactly. Like the time I saw the circus at Madison Square Garden. I bought a t-shirt, then demanded that they upgrade my seat and let me ride the elephant.

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (Fifi @ April 10 2006,16:16) Exactly. Like the time I saw the circus at Madison Square Garden. I bought a t-shirt, then demanded that they upgrade my seat and let me ride the elephant.

Holy cow, really? When I bought a t-shirt, they would only let me ride the donkeys. They said that if I wanted to ride the elephant I was going to have to buy a t-shirt and three mousepads.

--matt

[Valg]

1) In answer to the allegations being made, I'm the one who handles the money for CF, so to speak.  If a player buys a whatnot, I process the request, send them a thank-you, and make sure the whatnot gets to them.  All I have is an automatically-generated email with a contact address and the name that was on the credit card.  I'm not sent anything about who they're playing currently, and I don't really care.

1B) I suppose they could reply to my thank-you and tell me "I'm currently playing X!!!  Help me out! LOLZORS!", but that hasn't happened once in my career as an Implementor.  If it does happen, it certainly won't have a positive impact on how I interact with that player.  

1C) If a player bribed a staff member (no T-shirt involved, just mailed them a check or whatever) and I found out about it, the staff member would be fired on the spot.  (We've fired some people during my tenure, but never for that.) The possibility that a bribe could happen in the future doesn't make us a "pay-for-perks" MUD. See below.

2) Carrion Fields states up front that OOC influence on IC issues is not allowed.  In other words, we have a rule that buying a whatnot doesn't get you special treatment.

3) Therefore, if you say that buying a CF whatnot leads to special treatment, you're accusing me of accepting a bribe and breaking our own rules, since I'm the only one with both the information and the access to grant IC "favors".  If you want to level that accusation, it would be courteous if you provided proof that it is happening anywhere but in your mind.

Until someone comes up with any such evidence, I'll continue to state what we stated at the beginning of this thread: Carrion Fields doesn't sell anything that impacts gameplay.  (Unless the T-shirt keeps them so warm that it steadies their typing, or the keychain keeps them from locking themselves out of their house.  Feel free to start another thread on that.  It wouldn't surprise me.)

Originally Posted by Earlier today, at a Red Cross office: Matt: Hi.  I understand the Red Cross hates Japanese-Americans. Employee: I have no idea what you're talking about.  Federal law prohibits such a thing, it's incompatible with our mission, and there are countless examples showing that we treat Japanese-Americans like we treat all Americans.  Could you explain? Matt: Well, I bribed one of your employees to say something negative about them out loud.  It's right here on this tape. Employee: Well, that would be against our rules, and that employee would be fired if they did say that while on the job.  It certainly wouldn't reflect on the Red Cross.  May I see the tape? Matt: Sure.  (*Hands it over.*) Employee: Sir, this is a cassette of Weird Al Yankovic's "In 3-D" album, with "I heart A.Y." scrawled in crayon on one side, and "Red Cross Evidence" scrawled on the other.  I just played a piece, and it's just polka medleys. Matt: Well, I don't have an actual proof it happened.  But it theoretically could happen, and I could theoretically bribe an employee to say that on behalf of the organization, and that's what's important.  It's how I came to the conclusion that the Red Cross is a commercial enterprise that hates Japanese-Americans. Employee: Might I interest you in one of our mental health brochures?

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by 1C) If a player bribed a staff member (no T-shirt involved, just mailed them a check or whatever) and I found out about it, the staff member would be fired on the spot.  (We've fired some people during my tenure, but never for that.)  The possibility that a bribe could happen in the future doesn't make us a "pay-for-perks" MUD.  See below.

It's not about a bribe to a staff member though. It's about players selling stuff to each other, which you cannot prevent and which you won't even know about most of the time. Heck, players selling things to each other for real money is against our policies, but it has definitely happened and there's little we can do about it.

That's what I was commenting on when I said that there's no way for a MUD to honestly claim that there are no RMT happening in it and thus that real life money doesn't affect gameplay. The MUD can only claim that it has a policy against it, but then, so does Blizzard, and World of Warcraft gold is the single most traded game-related virtual asset in MUDs/MMOs.

--matt

[nass]

Muds cost money to run and as far as I know, there's a whole bunch of muds which fund themselves through fundraisers such as Valg's - ie using merchandising etc. We certainly do. But the thing is, there's no in-game gain there, and that's what all this is actually about. Maybe the label of "profitmaking" muds would be a sharper illustrator of the difference for people. Ie there are muds out there which exist purely to make money off people (Med, IRE) and use such mechanisms as pay-for-perks to do so.

Now I'm sure that some of the profitmakers are outstanding but I also have this perception that they're a bit cheap and deceitful. Cheap, because they're leeching off the work of us free guys - who do it for the love of our games, and who already have it much more difficult because we don't operate with the luxury of advertising budgets or professional programmers. Deceitful because it's all dressed up and labelled as "free", which is an offensive description to those of us who know the real meaning of what a free mud is and is supposed to be.

I guess with less and less mudders around nowadays, maybe they're finding it harder to attract people from the outside, so maybe they're concentrating on places where it's easier to get their players, such as here. Maybe another topic should be started in the Blue Tavern in which we (the non-profitmakers) could discuss ways to combat those profitmaking muds and leech something back. I don't think it would actually be that hard really. The key is to choose the battles carefully, choosing battles that they can't really pursue because they might cut their bottom line. Ie just giving away stuff that they'd charge for. Anyhow, as interesting as this is, it's just a detraction and not really what this topic is about.

[DonathinFrye]

Clandestine MUD
Godwars II
Awakened Worlds
Everwar


All four, great MUDs, in different ways. They should definitely be on the list.

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by nass,April 10 2006,18[img http://www.topmudsites.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif[/img]7]

Originally Posted by Muds cost money to run and as far as I know, there's a whole bunch of muds which fund themselves through fundraisers such as Valg's - ie using merchandising etc. We certainly do. But the thing is, there's no in-game gain there, and that's what all this is actually about. Maybe the label of "profitmaking" muds would be a sharper illustrator of the difference for people. Ie there are muds out there which exist purely to make money off people (Med, IRE) and use such mechanisms as pay-for-perks to do so.

Well, I can tell you that we turn a profit, but I can't speak for Medievia or other commercial MUDs without seeing their books.

Originally Posted by Cheap, because they're leeching off the work of us free guys - who do it for the love of our games, and who already have it much more difficult because we don't operate with the luxury of advertising budgets or professional programmers.

Leeching? My company sends more traffic here than anyone else. We're not leeching. We're contributing far more than most MUD organizations do to this site. We're also the biggest financial supporters of TMS, which, I might add, is itself a commercial enterprise.

Originally Posted by Deceitful because it's all dressed up and labelled as "free", which is an offensive description to those of us who know the real meaning of what a free mud is and is supposed to be.

And here we go again. No point in arguing about this really as all the arguing in the world isn't going to change the fact that the way we use free is simply the standard in the games industry.

--matt

[Luvan]

Anitra, could you please update your first post with all the muds added? And add something in your post, perhaps in caps, that says it will be updated with new muds added. Perhaps that would keep people from starting to read the nonsense and just moving on.

[Clifton]

Originally Posted by And here we go again. No point in arguing about this really as all the arguing in the world isn't going to change the fact that the way we use free is simply the standard in the games industry.

Sorry for asking, but who exactly sets standards in the games industry? Because, since MUDs are such a limited commodity, and your definition of free is always reference to "standard in the games industry", i would have to ask where this standard comes from.

[Anitra]

Luvan wrote: : April 10 2006,23:58

Originally Posted by Anitra, could you please update your first post with all the muds added? And add something in your post, perhaps in caps, that says it will be updated with new muds added. Perhaps that would keep people from starting to read the nonsense and just moving on.

It’s a bit remarkable, (and I don’t mean this in a positive way), that most of the trolling is done by the moderator. One example among several:

the_logos wrote: April 10 2006,16,07

Originally Posted by I know you don't want to hear this, but in that case, no MUD qualifies. There's no way for an administration to claim that in-game advantages cannot be bought for RL money as it's not under the control of the admin. They can only specify that they, as admin policy, disapprove and will punish people retroactively, but at that point, in-game advantages have already been bought.

One has got to wonder if there is there anyone else beside the_logos who didn’t understand that I was referring to the administrators, not individual players? For those that didn’t, here are the criteria with a clarification:

1. No in game advantages are sold BY THE ADMINISTRATORS for RL money
2. The mud is fully operational and well established
3. The mud has qualities that distinguish it from the large mass of mostly-stock muds

And here is an updated list, this time in alphabetical order, to make it easier to follow. (I don’t have time to add the URLs now, but I’ll do that next time the list is updated, unless someone else cares to step in and do the honours).
Feel free to suggest more Muds, as long as you keep the standards up.

4 Dimensions
Aabahran
Abandoned Realms
Adventures unlimited
Awakened Worlds
Armageddon
Awakened Worlds
Carrion Fields
Clandestine
Discworld
Everwar
Godwars II
Harshlands
Medieval Times
mume- multi users in middle earth
Realms of Despair
Shadows of Isildur
Shattered Kingdoms
Sloth mud
The secret of Atlas
Wheel of Time MUD
Unwritten legends
Zebedee

[prof1515]

Originally Posted by (Clifton @ April 11 2006,03:15) Originally Posted by And here we go again. No point in arguing about this really as all the arguing in the world isn't going to change the fact that the way we use free is simply the standard in the games industry. Sorry for asking, but who exactly sets standards in the games industry? Because, since MUDs are such a limited commodity, and your definition of free is always reference to "standard in the games industry", i would have to ask where this standard comes from.

Many would say the gaming industry is one of the most amateurish "professional" industries. Looking at the_logos as an example of that "industry" is proof enough of that, though he's far more unprofessional than average. He's also an extreme small-fry and probably the joke of those in the industry that even know who he is so don't judge them all by him.

Take care,

Jason

[prof1515]

Originally Posted by (Anitra @ April 11 2006,03:50) Luvan wrote: : April 10 2006,23:58 Originally Posted by Anitra, could you please update your first post with all the muds added? And add something in your post, perhaps in caps, that says  it will be updated with new muds added.  Perhaps that would keep people from starting to read the nonsense and just moving on. It’s a bit remarkable, (and I don’t mean this in a positive way), that most of the trolling is done by the moderator. One example among several: the_logos wrote: April 10 2006,16,07 Originally Posted by I know you don't want to hear this, but in that case, no MUD qualifies. There's no way for an administration to claim that in-game advantages cannot be bought for RL money as it's not under the control of the admin. They can only specify that they, as admin policy, disapprove and will punish people retroactively, but at that point, in-game advantages have already been bought. One has got to wonder if there is there anyone else beside the_logos who didn’t understand that I was referring to the administrators, not individual players? For those that didn’t, here are the criteria with a clarification: 1. No in game advantages are sold BY THE ADMINISTRATORS for RL money 2. The mud is fully operational and well established 3. The mud has qualities that distinguish it from the large mass of mostly-stock muds And here is an updated list, this time in alphabetical order, to make it easier to follow. (I don’t have time to add the URLs now, but I’ll do that next time the list is updated, unless someone else cares to step in and do the honours). Feel free to suggest more Muds, as long as you keep the standards up. 4 Dimensions Aabahran Abandoned Realms Adventures unlimited Awakened Worlds Armageddon Awakened Worlds Carrion Fields Clandestine Discworld Everwar Godwars II Harshlands Medieval Times mume- multi users in middle earth Realms of Despair Shadows of Isildur Shattered Kingdoms Sloth mud The secret of Atlas Wheel of Time MUD Unwritten legends Zebedee

Matt's view is due to his extremely limited knowledge of the types of MUDs out there. He's familiar with Viagra MUDs and the types of players that play those. As a result, he judges everyone by the rather low standards his MUDs and his pbases probably exhibit. There are plenty of MUDs, administrators, and players who are disgusted by the thought of OOC factors, especially real money, having an influence on their game. All of the MUDs I've seriously played in my life (that would only be a total of about a dozen) had policies against money being a factor and there was a general disgust at the very thought. It wasn't done (though that's not to say that occassional new, short-lived players didn't cheat in other ways).

But if all you know if Viagra MUDs, you might be convinced that everyone's out to spend money too.

Take care,

Jason

[Hadoryu]

Just don't complain when your posts get deleted, Jason. Not even an attempt at decency this time around.

Originally Posted by Sorry for asking, but who exactly sets standards in the games industry? Because, since MUDs are such a limited commodity, and your definition of free is always reference to "standard in the games industry", i would have to ask where this standard comes from.

That standard comes from what's considered "accepted use" in the game industry, I gather. MUDs being a 'limited commodity' has little bearing on the fact that they're infact games.

[DonathinFrye]

During some down time tonight, I began to go through the list and try some newer, less advertised or known Free to Play MUDs.

.Dimension 2 and Resident Evil: Re-incarnate, both from AJS Games, both struck me as unique and fun(and completely free).

If you are a fan of Resident Evil, high-tech/gunnery style games, good maps(RER's actually adds to the horror setting, because of how well their line-of-sight works), then you should definitely check ou this newly released game.

.D2's system seems to borrow elements from Final Fantasy, Diablo II, and .Hack; the combination is actually implemented very well, and I had the most fun trying these two newer MUDs that I've had playing a new MUD(as opposed to the same old established PvP MUDs, or my testing/playing my own MUDs) in a long time.

Check them out, definitely, and add them to the list. Particularly Resident Evil, simply because that is a great genre for an innovative MUD, and it really has not been looked into in the past verily.

[Emil]

I'd like to suggest adding LegendMud to the list.

It has a similar time travel theme as 4 Dimensions, but is a bit older. It's a very good mud with an unique world, and as far a I know totally free.