[KaVir]

Originally Posted by I'm seeing a pretty equal distribution, even in just the top 10 though, that certainly doesn't support the assertion that non-commercial MUDs can't compete because of lack of funds to go to advertizing.

You're missing four major points:

1) There are far more non-commercial muds listed here than there are commercial ones, meaning that the commercial muds are generally much higher in the rankings.

2) The largest of the non-commercial muds are present on the list, while the larger commercial muds are not.

3) TMS is only one form of advertising, and a relatively minor one (which also ties in to point 2 - the larger commercial muds don't even consider it worth bothering with).

4) It doesn't cost anything to list your mud on TMS, which makes the entire example rather irrelevent.

Originally Posted by So this once again poses the question, why do they feel they can't compete, when they're doing so quite successfully already?

My previous answer stands: The non-commercial muds don't have the same amount of money to throw at advertising. Non-commercial muds can't generally afford to maintain banners on mud and general gaming sites, to buy advertising space in printed magazines, and so on.

[Hadoryu]

Originally Posted by 1) The advantage we get from being truly "free" is diluted by the advertising practices of some of the commercial games. That practice is permitted here, but we would welcome an alternative which made the distinction clear. 2) What harm would such a site do? You're writing a lot of posts questioning its existence, but as long as someone else takes care of the labor and money required to put up such a site, why do you care if one exists?

1) That's not really the case. Nobody keeps playing and voting for a game they don't like. Being completely free is not a one-shot advertising advantage, it's part of the game concept and as such has value well beyond the first three lines of text in the advertisement.

2) I don't really care about what sort of harm it would do, I'm just horribly puzzled by the mindset. You're here competing with other MUDs successfully, but for some reason you want to take your ball home and not have to compete with them? Am I misunderstanding this somehow?

[Valg]

Originally Posted by (Hadoryu @ April 13 2006,10:47) Well, you do sell stuff. I didn't say you were pay for perks and even said you were leaning toward non-commercial. But you are selling things.

You're welcome to start your own site with its own criteria and not include us. I don't demand that your home MUD (Aetolia/IRE) should put up material advertising Carrion Fields. I don't see us ceasing to sell CF coffee mugs and whatnot.

However, given that we meet Anitra's criteria, and nass is proposing to make a site based on her list, I don't see what the problem is.

[Hadoryu]

Originally Posted by 1, 2, 3

But this whole thing is about TMS, isn't it? What does it matter if there are bigger commercial MUDs somewhere out there? They're not competing here. So what if there are far more non-commercial MUDs listed here than commercial ones? A lot of them simply aren't popular enough to compete for the top 20 - be it against commercial or other non-commercial MUDs.

Originally Posted by 4

How is it irrelevant? I wasn't speaking of TMS as an advertisement platform but rather as a measure of popularity for the sampling of MUDs we have here. Non-commercial MUDs can compete just as successfully as commercial ones, it would seem from the results here. This is where the competition occurs, after all.

Originally Posted by My previous answer stands: The non-commercial muds don't have the same amount of money to throw at advertising.  Non-commercial muds can't generally afford to maintain banners on mud and general gaming sites, to buy advertising space in printed magazines, and so on.

Why does this matter in regard to TMS? If non-commercial MUDs are completing succesfully here, it's obvious that this advantage is offset by something else.

[Valg]

Originally Posted by (KaVir @ April 13 2006,11:03) My previous answer stands: The non-commercial muds don't have the same amount of money to throw at advertising.  Non-commercial muds can't generally afford to maintain banners on mud and general gaming sites, to buy advertising space in printed magazines, and so on.

Completely agreed. Our current monthly advertising budget stands at $0, and we're one of the larger "actually free in practice" (*) games. We aggressively try to make ourselves visible on various sites that permit free advertising (like the forums here), but it's not as simple as writing a check.

It's a whole different world. I know it, you know, and it seems to me like everyone on this thread except the IRE affiliates knows it.

(*): Or whatever term we're forced to use to describe our operations model here..

[Hadoryu]

Originally Posted by You're welcome to start your own site with its own criteria and not include us. I don't demand that your home MUD (Aetolia/IRE) should put up material advertising Carrion Fields. I don't see us ceasing to sell CF coffee mugs and whatnot. However, given that we meet Anitra's criteria, and nass is proposing to make a site based on her list, I don't see what the problem is.

I claimed there was a problem with CF selling things? Or with being on the list?

What I'm asking for is justification for this whole thing, these MUDs are already listed here, what is the justification for listing them on another side but leaving out the other MUDs they're competing against here?

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by You're here competing with other MUDs successfully, but for some reason you want to take your ball home and not have to compete with them? Am I misunderstanding this somehow?

I think so - I've not seen anyone proposing that they leave TMS. Instead, they seem to be suggesting joining forces to help promote each other, pooling their resources so as to draw extra attention to their games. Sounds like a good idea to me, and I'm surprised to hear objections.

[Hadoryu]

Originally Posted by I think so - I've not seen anyone proposing that they leave TMS. Instead, they seem to be suggesting joining forces to help promote each other, pooling their resources so as to draw extra attention to their games. Sounds like a good idea to me, and I'm surprised to hear objections.

If it's mutual promotion, I could understand it. But I don't understand the hint of indignation at having to share TMS with commercial MUDs, hence I felt the need to ask why they would seek promotion around a criteria such as pay-for-perks vs not-pay-for-perks. I'm not even objecting, I just don't understand the reasons behind it.

Originally Posted by Completely agreed. Our current monthly advertising budget stands at $0, and we're one of the larger "actually free in practice" (*) games. We aggressively try to make ourselves visible on various sites that permit free advertising (like the forums here), but it's not as simple as writing a check. It's a whole different world. I know it, you know, and it seems to me like everyone on this thread except the IRE affiliates knows it. (*): Or whatever term we're forced to use to describe our operations model here..

Stabs aside, it looks to me like you're complaining here that your model isn't working for you as well as you'd like it to. Do you feel you'd be more popular if you went commercial? Commercial MUDs gain the perk of being able to finance advertising and non-commercial MUDs gain the perk of being more attractive because of the obviously lower price to participate. Judging from the rankings, these things are evened out.

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by But this whole thing is about TMS, isn't it?

No, it's about free muds, and giving them exposure because they don't generally have the funds to pay for banners and advertisements.

Originally Posted by How is it irrelevant?

Because the point is that non-commercial muds cannot afford to throw the same sort of money at advertising as the commercial muds can. The TMS listings are free and therefore obviously not the sort of advertising being discussed.

Originally Posted by I wasn't speaking of TMS as an advertisement platform but rather as a measure of popularity for the sampling of MUDs we have here.

Unfortunately it doesn't provide an accurate measure of popularity.

Originally Posted by Why does this matter in regard to TMS?

It doesn't - the discussion is not about TMS, it's just taking place on the TMS forums.

Originally Posted by If it's mutual promotion, I could understand it. But I don't understand the hint of indignation at having to share TMS with commercial MUDs, hence I felt the need to ask why they would seek promotion around a criteria such as pay-for-perks vs not-pay-for-perks. I'm not even objecting, I just don't understand the reasons behind it.

Because the commercial muds already have an advantage when it comes to advertising. The proposal being discussed here is that those muds which lack that advantage should pool their resources to create their own advantage.

[Hadoryu]

Two questions:

1) Why is free advertising considered to be irrelevant in comparison to paid advertising when they both accomplish the same goal - i.e. exposure? If someone comes to TMS they see a banner and they see a list of other MUDs advertising themselves a couple of inches lower. Is this a mammoth difference? And this really applies to all sorts of advertising mediums, magasines and gaming sites can and do review games without payment.

2) Your points seem to hinge on the assumption that advertising is a much stronger factor in acquiring players than lower price. How do you support this?

[Anitra]

Hadoryu:

Originally Posted by April 13 2006,10:47 1. Well, you do sell stuff. I didn't say you were pay for perks and even said you were leaning toward non-commercial. But you are selling things. April 13 2006,11:16 2. What I'm asking for is justification for this whole thing, these MUDs are already listed here, what is the justification for listing them on another side but leaving out the other MUDs they're competing against here?

1. Sigh. Here we go again.
If it isn't the_logos targetting Carrion Fields to dilute the thread, it's some other IRE affiliate. Let me direct you once again to the three criteria below.

2. As has already been explained several times in this and other threads, most free muds have a definite problem making themselves visible, because:
a) There are over 1000 free muds listed here and on TMC, of which only a small percentage are high quality, non-stock, long-term projects, which in turn makes it hard for these quality FREE muds to stand out against the grey mass.
b) FREE muds don't have the funds for plastering their banners all over the Mud realated sites like the commercial Muds do. In addition to this they have to compete with commercial muds like the IRE games painting themselves out as 'free', which probably nets a fair amount of unsuspecting new players, or IRE wouldn't be so aggressive about keeping the label.

And, as KaVir already pointed out, nobody has suggested that the FREE muds would leave TMS or TMC, only an additional resource, centered around them.

And since the thread got spammed - AGAIN - a couple of pages, here is the list again, with The Dragon's Den included, (sorry about that).

CRITERIA
1. No in game advantages are sold by the Administrators for RL money
2. The mud is fully operational and well established
3. The mud has qualities that distinguish it from the large mass of mostly-stock muds

4 Dimensions - 4dimensions.org:6000 - http://4dimensions.org
Aabahran - 216.136.9.8:1848 - http://www.forsakenlands.org
Abandoned Realms - 204.209.44.8:9000 - http://abandonedrealms.wolfpaw.net
Adventures Unlimited - tharel.net:5005 - http://www.tharel.net
Armageddon - ginka.armageddon.org:4050 - http://www.armageddon.org/intro/adpage.html
Avendar - avendar.com:9999 - http://www.avendar.com
Awakened Worlds - awakenedworlds.net:4000 - http://www.awakenedworlds.net
Carrion Fields - carrionfields.com:9999 - http://www.carrionfields.com
Clandestine - mud.clandestinemud.com:9476 - http://mud.clandestinemud.com
Discworld - discworld.atuin.net:23 - http://discworld.atuin.net
Dimension 2 - asj.mudmagic.com:6666 - http://asj.mudmagic.com
Everwar - everwar.dune.net:4242 - http://www.everwar.net/
Godwars II - godwars2.com:3000 - http://www.godwars2.com
Harshlands - muddled.harshlands.net:5555 - http://www.harshlands.net
Legendmud - legendmud.org:9999 - http://www.legendmud.org
Medieval Times - mud.lordtrox.com:8500 - http://www.lordtrox.com
MUME - mume.pvv.org:23 - http://mume.pvv.org
Realms of Despair - realms.game.org:4000 - http://www.realmsofdespair.com
Resident Evil:Outbreak - tyro.genesismuds.com:5300 - http://tyro.genesismuds.com
Shadows of Isildur - middle-earth.us:23 - http://www.middle-earth.us
Shattered Kingdoms - mud.shatteredkingdoms.org:1996 - http://www.shatteredkingdoms.org
Sloth mud - slothmud.org:6101 - http://www.slothmud.org
The Dragon's Den - dden.discordia.org:2222 - http://dden.discordia.org
The secret of Atlas - atlasmud.com:4445 - http://atlasmud.com
Wheel of Time MUD - 207.234.147.46:2222 - http://www.wotmud.org/
Unwritten legends - www.unwritten.net:6666 - http://www.unwritten.net
Zebedee - www.zebedee.org:7000 - http://www.zebedee.org

[Hadoryu]

Originally Posted by 1. Sigh. Here we go again. If it isn't the_logos targetting Carrion Fields to dilute the thread, it's some other IRE affiliate. Let me direct you once again to the three criteria below.

I was asked, so I answered. Was I supposed to do something else? I have no problem with CF being on the list, it make no difference to me.

Originally Posted by a) There are over 1000 free muds listed here and on TMC, of which only a small percentage are high quality, non-stock, long-term projects, which in turn makes it hard for these quality FREE muds to stand out against the grey mass.

Isn't this the entire point in TMS? To rank the higher quality most popular MUDs the highest? You already have precisely the list that makes the higher quality MUDs stand out.

Originally Posted by b) FREE muds don't have the funds for plastering their banners all over the Mud realated sites like the commercial Muds do. In addition to this they have to compete with commercial muds like the IRE games painting themselves out as 'free', which probably nets a fair amount of unsuspecting new players, or IRE wouldn't be so aggressive about keeping the label.

IRE can't 'net' a player who doesn't want to play a pay-for-perks game. And once again, do you actually know if banners are a bigger incentive to play than the lower cost?

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by 1) Why is free advertising considered to be irrelevant in comparison to paid advertising when they both accomplish the same goal - i.e. exposure?

Because it's already available to both the commercial and the non-commercial muds.  Commercial muds can also afford large banners and paid adverts.  This proposal is to give the non-commercial muds their own additional advertising option.

Originally Posted by 2) Your points seem to hinge on the assumption that advertising is a much stronger factor in acquiring players than lower price. How do you support this?

Well the fact that the commercial muds tend to have far more players than the non-commercial muds is a bit of a giveaway.

However you're making two assumptions of your own.  Firstly, you're assuming that having a cost is a negative influence, yet every time the subject of pay-for-perks/play arises there are plenty of people saying that they prefer that option.  Secondly, you're assuming that this proposal needs to be justified or somehow balanced out against paid advertising - it doesn't, any more than the commercial muds should have to justify buying banner space.

[Hadoryu]

Originally Posted by Because it's already available both both the commercial and the non-commercial muds.  Commercial muds can also afford large banners and paid adverts.  This proposal is to give the non-commercial muds their own additional advertising option.

I can see the additional advertising as an advantage to commercial MUDs who can afford it.

Originally Posted by Well the fact that the commercial muds tend to have far more players than the non-commercial muds is a bit of a giveaway.

The total of the non-commercial MUDs have more players than the total of the commercial MUDs though, don't they? Commercial MUDs either stay afloat or they don't so you'll likely see a tendency for them to commonly have a healthy number of players - it's a prequisite to their existance.

Originally Posted by However you're making two assumptions of your own.  Firstly, you're assuming that having a cost is a negative influence, yet every time the subject of pay-for-perks/play arises there are plenty of people saying that they prefer that option.  Secondly, you're assuming that this proposal needs to be justified or somehow balanced out against paid advertising - it doesn't, any more than the commercial muds should have to justify buying banner space.

I think generally most players consider having a cost a very negative thing. You'll note they don't say that having a cost is innately an advantage - they say it in relation to that cost providing a higher quality. I'm not discussing under the assumption that non-commercial MUDs are lower quality though.

Secondly, I'm not condemning the effort, I just don't understand the basis and I'm interested in having it explained to me. I'm in no position to judge nor do I wish to. The question for me being, are non-commercial MUDs really placed at a disadvantage to commercial MUDs to warrant some sort of balancing that many people have condemned TMS for not providing?

[Valg]

Originally Posted by (Hadoryu @ April 13 2006,12:07) Secondly, I'm not condemning the effort, I just don't understand the basis and I'm interested in having it explained to me. I'm in no position to judge nor do I wish to. The question for me being, are non-commercial MUDs really placed at a disadvantage to commercial MUDs to warrant some sort of balancing that many people have condemned TMS for not providing?

Please stop derailing Anitra's advertising thread.

Anitra has her criteria, and is talking about starting a new, independent website with a different focus based on those criteria. You are equally welcome to start a new website called "Matt's Proxies", where IRE staff can discuss loyally repeating Matt's methods of derailing advertising threads, and Anitra wouldn't get to decide who can or cannot participate there.

You can say "I'm not condemning the effort", but I guess I don't believe you.

[DonathinFrye]

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