[Anitra]

Since the thread about non-donation Muds was closed down for reasons not quite clear to some of us, I am opening a new one on the same topic.

Not all of the ones on the list below are in the top ten, but most of them have been up for years, they are stable and balanced, they are just as good as the commercial ones, and they offer a definite alternative for players, who don't think that real life money should have any impact on the gameplay.

The really free Muds need all the exposure they can get, since they don't have the funds to pay for banners and advertisements. The best of them are run by skilled and dedicated people, who donate their own time freely, with no other reward than the joy of creation. The general spirit among truly FREE muds is to share, and the development of muds is largely due to skilled coders generously sharing their code with the community.

So here is the list again, as it was going, when the thread was closed. Feel free to add more to the list. And please stay on topic, this thread should stay open.

The object of this list is to put the spotlight of the high quality FREE muds that exist.

Medieval Times
Carrion Fields
Shattered Kingdoms
Armageddon
Sloth mud
Abandoned Realms
Discworld
4 Dimensions
Realms of Despair
Harshlands
Shadows of Isildur
Aabahran

(Post edited April 14th 2006, to stop the constant derailment of the_logos and followers)

[the_logos]

Moved here, to Advertising for Players.

--matt

[the_logos]

Just writing another post, hoping that the moved thread will show up properly on Recent Discussions.

--matt

[Anitra]

I don't quite understand why it was necessary to move this thread. The other one was posted on the Tavern, and the topic of common interest.

It's not equal to posting an advertisement for a single mud.

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (Anitra @ April 07 2006,18:56) I don't quite understand why it was necessary to move this thread. The other one was posted on the Tavern, and the topic of common interest. It's not equal to posting an advertisement for a single mud.

The other thread was someone asking a question about which MUDs don't sell things - information gathering. This one is a thread promoting MUDs that don't sell things - advertising.

Originally Posted by They are run by dedicated people, who pay for the hardware and server out of their own pocket

Just a point: At least one of the organizations running a MUD on your list sells things to players to pay for hardware.
--matt

[ScourgeX]

Originally Posted by (Anitra @ April 07 2006,18:56) It's not equal to posting an advertisement for a single mud.

The only difference I see is you mentioned more than one mud, but you are still basically advertisting for them. There are probably hundreds of muds that aren't pay for perks, yet you only mentioned a mere fraction of them.

I don't have a clue why the original thread was closed down as I stopped reading it days ago as I tend to do once topics reach more than 2 pages worth of posts.

[Valg]

Curiously, "It's the weeeeekend! Triple exp at wotmud.org" was not moved, but this more general post was. I'd direct you to the "Matt as a Moderator" thread, but it was locked.

As for our inclusion on the list: We don't sell anything that impacts gameplay in the slightest, though we to sell non-game stuff like T-shirts and whatnot to help pay for the costs of operation, if anyone cares. We don't pay salaries or otherwise "keep" that money, however-- it all goes back into the game.

[DonathinFrye]

I guess Matt didn't learn from the closed thread on him (probably not a great thing to have the moderator in question close a thread about themselves).

You really should be more cautious Matt, and thank you Anitra for opening up this subject of conversation again.

[prof1515]

Originally Posted by (the_logos @ April 07 2006,18:59) Originally Posted by They are run by dedicated people, who pay for the hardware and server out of their own pocket Just a point: At least one of the organizations running a MUD on your list sells things to players to pay for hardware. --matt

Which doesn't make them anything but free since it's not only voluntary but has no impact on the game itself. It's the same as if they set up a lemonaide stand in their driveway and sold lemonaide to pay for their hardware costs.

Don't derail this thread too like the last one with poor arguments.

Take care,

Jason

[Ilkidarios]

...

I'm pretty sure Xyllomer doesn't sell any in-game content, though you can correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not an all that avid player.

[Hadoryu]

Originally Posted by They are run by dedicated people, who pay for the hardware and server out of their own pocket, and who donate their own time freely, with no other reward than the joy of creation.

That's the statement that Matt was reacting to, I'm fairly certain. Carrion Fields gathers donations, hence doesn't pay out their own pocket. Nothing insulting about that, so I think you can put the hatchets down.

[nass]

There's another mud which belongs on that list of fantastic free muds, my old stomping ground, mume- multi users in middle earth. In fact, there are 100s of great totally free muds where you can't buy your way into perks.

It's difficult to say which is "better" as that's not exactly an objective question. pay4perk muds do have the advantage of being able to afford professional programmers ie get things done, which is certainly an area that I think a lot of the non pay4perk muds have problems with.

[Baram]

Originally Posted by (nass @ April 08 2006,21:32) It's difficult to say which is "better" as that's not exactly an objective question. pay4perk muds do have the advantage of being able to afford professional programmers ie get things done, which is certainly an area that I think a lot of the non pay4perk muds have problems with.

Thats true to a point, but not fully. You would still want to have coders that are experienced in your types of games. Then there's the whole thing where many "real" programmers don't think of a mud as a "real" job.

[Valg]

Originally Posted by (nass @ April 08 2006,08:32) pay4perk muds do have the advantage of being able to afford professional programmers ie get things done, which is certainly an area that I think a lot of the non pay4perk muds have problems with.

That's not necessarily true in either direction. Fpr example, all of our coders except one (me! have a day job as programmers. (I have a technical job where I write code occasionally, but it's not my main focus.)

Also, business-MUDs sometimes hire people who know MUDs and can write code, but don't have degrees or other certificates that make them "professional" programmers. Why? Cheaper. Degrees cost money.

[DonathinFrye]

If you are a fan of complex, kickass group PvP combat, there is a great 100% Free MUD called Everwar. It's a fun, intense MUD - and it has recently opened its second version.

www.everwar.net

Check it out. My pick for the MUD to beat for great group PvP.




Other good 100% Free PvP combat MUDs;


Godwars II [very original, very fun solo PvP]
www.godwarsii.com

Clandestine [very balanced, fun, medium-to-large playerbase, unique, and intense for both solo and group PvP]
www.clandestinemud.com



--- and if you enjoy very complex worlds with small/medium sized playerbases, I suggest the following lesser known 100% Free MUDs;


Awakened Worlds [Shadowrun MUD, small-to-medium playerbase, very complex world/gameplay/character customization]
www.awakenedworlds.net


4 Dimensions MUD [A very unique/complex game, with a good staff]
www.4dimensions.org

[Gorgulu]

Wouldn't it be a lot easier to create a list of MUDs that are pay-for-perks, considering there are so fewer of those than totally free ones?

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (prof1515 @ April 07 2006,20:47) Which doesn't make them anything but free since it's not only voluntary but has no impact on the game itself.  It's the same as if they set up a lemonaide stand in their driveway and sold lemonaide to pay for their hardware costs. Don't derail this thread too like the last one with poor arguments.

Gosh, I'm sorry if a factual correction to a factual assertion by the thread poster is considered "off topic" by you. I'm not sure where you derive an 'argument' from there. It's simply a minor correction.

--matt

[prof1515]

Originally Posted by (the_logos @ April 08 2006,14:49) Originally Posted by (prof1515 @ April 07 2006,20:47) Which doesn't make them anything but free since it's not only voluntary but has no impact on the game itself.  It's the same as if they set up a lemonaide stand in their driveway and sold lemonaide to pay for their hardware costs. Don't derail this thread too like the last one with poor arguments. Gosh, I'm sorry if a factual correction to a factual assertion by the thread poster is considered "off topic" by you. I'm not sure where you derive an 'argument' from there. It's simply a minor correction. --matt

An irrelevant, hence off-topic, correction since how they get their money to pay for hardware is the same as the other MUDs on that list, ie not from charging in any way for perks in-game.

Jason

[the_logos]

0-->

Originally Posted by (prof1515 @ April 08 2006,15[img http://www.topmudsites.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif[/img]0)]An irrelevant, hence off-topic, correction since how they get their money to pay for hardware is the same as the other MUDs on that list, ie not from charging in any way for perks in-game. Jason

I'm sorry, but any factual correction to the first post is not off-topic. It was asserted that the owners of the listed MUDs pay for the server costs out of their pocket, and this is untrue in the case of one of the MUDS, so I corrected it. In no way is a correction to a factual assertion in the original post of a thread off-topic. The person who starts the thread decides what the topic of the thread is by the initial post. If it was brought up in the initial post, it's on-topic by definition. This is a silly argument and I'm not going to continue it.

--matt

[prof1515]

Originally Posted by (the_logos @ April 08 2006,15:05) Originally Posted by (prof1515 @ April 08 2006,15) An irrelevant, hence off-topic, correction since how they get their money to pay for hardware is the same as the other MUDs on that list, ie not from charging in any way for perks in-game. Jason I'm sorry, but any factual correction to the first post is not off-topic. It was asserted that the owners of the listed MUDs pay for the server costs out of their pocket, and this is untrue in the case of one of the MUDS, so I corrected it. In no way is a correction to a factual assertion in the original post of a thread off-topic. The person who starts the thread decides what the topic of the thread is by the initial post. If it was brought up in the initial post, it's on-topic by definition. This is a silly argument and I'm not going to continue it. --matt

They do pay out of pocket. Selling t-shirts or mugs is the same as selling cookies door-to-door. It's not related to charging for perks in the game. The money goes to the people running the website who are the same people running the game but it's not related to the game itself. The aforementioned t-shirts or mugs could bear the logo of the game on them but that still doesn't make them perks since no matter how many t-shirts you buy, you have no advantage over a player who doesn't have one. And since sales of t-shirts and mugs are probably not high enough to maintain the cost of running the game (after all, how many t-shirts and mugs does one really need or want for that matter?), the owners of the game in question may very well pay hardware expenses out of their pocket with the occassional alleviation of some of the cost from the sale of something off their website.

Jason

[Ilkidarios]

Can we get back on topic, please?  Last thing I remember this topic was about listing non-pfp MUDs, not arguing about god knows what.

And don't twist this into an attack on anybody else, but Prof and Matt, please don't argue.  I mean, if you have a MUD to say that's not pay for perks, say it, if not, don't.

[Anitra]

the_logos wrote; April 08 2006,155

Originally Posted by The person who starts the thread decides what the topic of the thread is by the initial post. If it was brought up in the initial post, it's on-topic by definition. This is a silly argument and I'm not going to continue it.

I totally agree. So can we please get back to the main topic?

I started this thread, for two main reasons; a) because an earlier thread about the same subject was closed down, and b) because I think it would be a good thing to establish a list of high quality Muds that don't allow in game benefits for real life money. We have apparently been denied having a search option to list those muds, so this is another way of making their existence known to potential new users.

In case somebody else missed the point, let me try to explain it in very simple terms:

There are two very different cultures among mud players;

1. The players who like the option of buying advantages for RL money, assumedly because in this way they don't need to spend so much time and effort on developing their char.

2. The players who dislike it, because they think it unbalances the game by giving an unfair advantage to people with big wallets.

In both the cases you can find arguments for and against it. Obviously both cases have their more or less wholehearted supporters, and there is also probably a rather large number that don’t care one way or the other.

It is a bit hard to establish the proportion between the three groups. Apparently a pretty large number of players like the pay-for-perks option (or don’t care one way or another), since the muds using it generally have very large playerbases. But this is not the full story. The pay-for perks is also a very effective way to get money from your playerbase, meaning that the muds that are using this method also have the funds to pay for banners and other types of advertisements. It would be interesting to know how many of their players that are drawn to their games simply because of this massive marketing, and how many that actively seek them out because they really like the P4P option. But again this is something that is hard to establish, except possibly by a survey among the pay-for-perks muds themselves. And this is obviously not going to happen, because it would be against the interests of the owners to publish such a survey.

ScourgeX wrote: April 07 2006,19,03

Originally Posted by The only difference I see is you mentioned more than one mud, but you are still basically advertisting for them. There are probably hundreds of muds that aren't pay for perks, yet you only mentioned a mere fraction of them.

This is a rather obvious observation, and the response is equally obvious:.
Naturally not all of the hundreds of non-pay-for-perks muds that exist are good ones, and as a consequence the ones that really are of high quality tend to drown in the grey mass, making them hard to find for new players.

The objective of this thread is to put the spotlight on these quality Muds. The totally free Muds offer a definite alternative to the commercial ones. Several of them have been on line for years, are run by very competent people and are of very high quality. In fact, if you are looking for originality and cutting edge coding, several of the free muds stand out in a vary favourable way.

So, please keep adding any muds to the list that you know of, which fulfil these two main criteria;
a) they should not allow any type of in-game perks to be bought for real money, and
b) they should be of high quality, stable and well established.

[Luvan]

I thought I should add a few,

Unwritten legends
Adventures unlimited

Both very very high quality, both very stable.

[sparky]

The secret of Atlas

The secret of atlas is totally free, it laways has been and i will see to it that it always is free. Its more improtant to me to provide a good safe environment for mudders of all ages to gather in, than try and make a few easy bucks. Our player ages range from 8 to 50 years old.

Our special items are earned thru contests such as token hunts, and dm guided quests/games.

Once players reach full remort status, they are then offered special item tweaks based on how many times they continue to remort throught extra lives. So it does kind of put our full remort players in a class of their own with each one having his/her own unique strengths, and it gives them the necessary motivation to continue playing.

We are very stable, and have been around for a long time, and are constantly working on expanding and opening new areas daily.

*Sparky pats his staff on the back for their outstanding efforts over the years*

[osirus]

Waddup, just felt as tho i should add a mud to the list :-)

Zebedee

link: zebedee.org

Great mud, medium size 3000-6000 rooms doesnt ask for money at all, Zebedee is full of great people who are willing to help you out with anything, Roleplay is encouraged but not manditory, there is restricted playerkilling but not much of that happens anymore. Come by and check us out :-) i started playing muds about 4 years ago and i always find that i come back to this one. Im usually on and am willing to help anyone start :-) hope to see you guys

[Stilton]

Originally Posted by (Anitra @ April 08 2006,19:05) There are two very different cultures among mud players; 1. The players who like the option of buying advantages for RL money, assumedly because in this way they don't need to spend so much time and effort on developing their char. 2. The players who dislike it, because they think it unbalances the game by giving an unfair advantage to people with big wallets.

I can think of at least two more groups:

3. People who don't in principle mind paying for a game, and who prefer paying for things they want when they want them to having someone hit their credit card once a month whether or not they play the game that month.

4. People who think pay for perks is a great way to get other people to pay for their entertainment (these are generally the guys who provide in-game services for in-game money).

Stilton

[Threshold]

Originally Posted by (Valg @ April 07 2006,19:13) As for our inclusion on the list: We don't sell anything that impacts gameplay in the slightest, though we to sell non-game stuff like T-shirts and whatnot to help pay for the costs of operation, if anyone cares. We don't pay salaries or otherwise "keep" that money, however-- it all goes back into the game.

In all fairness, there is no way this does not impact the game at all. Once anyone pays money to the people running the mud for ANY reason, things change. Not only will things change in the minds of the admins themselves, but expectations will change in the minds of the players who buy these things.

I am not saying there is anything wrong with this practice, I am just saying that it is naive and unrealistic to claim this has no effect on the game or the way certain individuals are treated (or expect to be treated).

[Valg]

Originally Posted by (Threshold @ April 09 2006,14:34) In all fairness, there is no way this does not impact the game at all. Once anyone pays money to the people running the mud for ANY reason, things change. Not only will things change in the minds of the admins themselves, but expectations will change in the minds of the players who buy these things.

We haven't really seen much of that, and the one loud source of grumbling there is someone who, well, grumbles anyway. It's probably helpful that 95% of the staff has no idea which players have bought merchandise, and there's no simple way to connect player purchases to characters (we don't use an account system).

People get grouchy if they buy merchandise and it doesn't show up as quick as they like, but that's been a rare and understandable exception. Our forum conversations haven't changed in the way you mention. Maybe your playerbase is different. *shrug*

[Threshold]

Originally Posted by (Valg @ April 09 2006,17:30) Maybe your playerbase is different. *shrug*

Hmmm. My player base is made up of human beings. What is yours made of?

Human beings are going to naturally expect things when they pay money to someone. The fact that there is an extra step (buying merchandise instead of just outright sending money) does not change the fact that they are indeed paying money to the mud operators.

Furthermore, the mud operators themselves know who is sending them money, and it would be unreasonable and naive to say they are not affected AT ALL by this fact. It doesn't have to be tracked right on their player file for it to be known. Not only are there always going to be some admins who know directly (because they process the payments and know the names of the people who buy stuff), but the players will mention it when they feel it is relevant (maybe they feel they are being taken for granted, or they want special treatment, or they think they should get a break because of their investment, or who knows what else). That's human nature and unless you have a mud of about 20 people who are more like a group of friends than a large mud community, you aren't going to avoid it.

In fact, the more competitive the game (lots of PvP for example) the more likely it is that people will perceive an effect from these purchases. The more competitive the environment, the more suspicious people are of how things go on behind the scenes, and the more susceptible they are to belief in conspiracies, preferences, and favoritism. The involvement of money in any manner increases this.

The critical difference is whether or not players are sending money to the mud operators. The existence of a tshirt or mug in between the transaction is largely irrelevant to the question of whether or not money can affect the entirety of the gameplay experience. Is it less than outright buying gear, items, training, etc? Yes, of course, the impact is MUCH less. But there is still an impact.

[Anitra]

It would be nice if certain owners of commercial Muds would stop trying to divert the attention from the actual topic of the thread, by the repeated more or less veiled attacks on Carrion Fields.

I repeat once again: The object of the thread is to cast some spotlight of the totally free quality Muds that exist, and to establish a list of them, to make it easier for potential new players to find a really good free mud, without having to sift through hundreds of stock ones.

Muds on the list should fulfil the following three criteria:
1. No in game advantages can be bought for RL money
2. The mud is fully operational and well established
3. The mud has qualities that distinguish it from the large mass of mostly-stock muds

As far as I know, Carrion Fields fulfils all those three criteria. It’s also notable that the allegations don’t come from the owners of other free Muds on the list, which logically would be the first to react if they thought something was fishy.

We all know that there are some shady mud administrators out there, who cheat by giving unfair advantages on the sly to certain players (mostly their own morts, or their friends). But to imply , as Threshold seems to do, that the owner of Carrion Fields would do something equally unethical, is rather insulting, and Valg should be commended for keeping his calm. There is absolutely no evidence to support such an allegation, on the contrary there is a lot to suggest the opposite. Let me just point out a few facts:

1. Valg is a widely respected member of the mud community and during the many years that I have monitored these boards, I have not once seen anything that would question his integrity.
2. Carrion Fields has a large and loyal playerbase, dedicated enough to keep it constantly in the top 10. This would never be possible if there were a widespread dissatisfaction among the players.
3. Carrion Fields also allows reviews of their mud, in contrast to most large commercials. This again speaks of high integrity, and I don’t recall seeing a lot of accusations about favouritism in these reviews.

To return to the original subject:
Setting up a list of high quality free Muds, will help the owners on that list to get a bit more of the attention they deserve, and should above all be a good service for players in search of a good mud where paying money for perks will not affect the gameplay.

If you know of any more Muds that fulfil the above 3 criteria, and in your opinion are good enough to match the already established standards on the list, please post them on this thread.
But please also keep the high standard demand, since we don’t want the list to get diluted. Naturally the selection will be somewhat subjective, but the collected knowledge of the members of the list, should be enough to keep the standard.

Also, please keep the entries short and sweet, without any longwinded advertising for a particular mud, that is not the main object of the thread. It is the existence of quality free muds that the attention should be focused on.

The list will be updated regularly with unchallenged new entries.