[Visching101]

Well I have worked on plenty of Mud’s/Mush’s over the last 5 years, I have done everything from creating areas to coding the client it’s self. After bringing to other peoples ideas to life I thought I would get to work on a project of my own.

I am a big fan of the Warhammer 40k table top game and thought it would make a very good idea for a game like this, with the different races and factions. It falls right into place with the basics of this type of game.

I am looking for staff for just about everything. Right now my cousin is in charge of the coding department, I am in charge of the web-design, concept art, and the programming of the client/gui.

If anyone would like to help with any of this feel free to contact me and any of the following.

Aim: Rich1393

Msn: Visching101 -AT- hotmail.com

E-Mail: Rich1393 -AT- Gmail.com

Thanks in advance for people who take the time to read this, and thanks a lot to the people who help.

[GuruPlayer]

No offense, but don't you think the owners of Warhammer 40K might get a little miffed about someone designing a Mud game based on their game?  While I have seen a bunch of Muds based on D&D,  Wheel of Time, Star Wars, & Shadowrun, etc.  Do they exist because the owners of the original work have chosen not to sue?  Or do they not care? Didn't "Shadows of Isildur" have a problem like that for awhile with the Tolkien heirs?  Seems if I had invented a popular tabletop fantasy game, & someone decided to base a Mud on my game, I would want to be paid some kind of royalty for the use of my ideas and/or trademark, even if the Mud was free.

[Fishy]

Arrrrgggghhh, ye be welcome to the world of pirates matey!

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (GuruPlayer @ April 01 2006,06:26) No offense, but don't you think the owners of Warhammer 40K might get a little miffed about someone designing a Mud game based on their game? While I have seen a bunch of Muds based on D&D, Wheel of Time, Star Wars, & Shadowrun, etc. Do they exist because the owners of the original work have chosen not to sue? Or do they not care? Didn't "Shadows of Isildur" have a problem like that for awhile with the Tolkien heirs? Seems if I had invented a popular tabletop fantasy game, & someone decided to base a Mud on my game, I would want to be paid some kind of royalty for the use of my ideas and/or trademark, even if the Mud was free.

Indeedy.

Incidentally, Mythic Entertainment will be putting out the Warhammer graphical MUD in the nearish future.

--matt

[Milawe]

Games Workshop, the owners of the Warhammer license, is another company that defends its trademarks and copyrights rather rigorously. That may be even more true now that they're in the process of releasing a Warhammer Fantasy MMORPG.

While I love the idea of a Warhammer game that is actually based on Warhammer rules (the new MMO is NOT), I'd check with GW before putting a whole lot of time into it.

On an academic level, are you planning on making the MU* squad based like the table top game? Mythic is pretty much making Dark Age of Warhammer, meaning that they're doing another hack n slash/PvP game but using the Warhammer world and races. I'm rather disappointed by that since one of the things I love most about Warhammer is the squad-based strategy as well as the races. (They're only incorporating 6 races and lizardmen have been left out!!!!! BOO HOO!

[Visching101]

Originally Posted by (GuruPlayer @ April 01 2006,06:26) No offense, but don't you think the owners of Warhammer 40K might get a little miffed about someone designing a Mud game based on their game? While I have seen a bunch of Muds based on D&D, Wheel of Time, Star Wars, & Shadowrun, etc. Do they exist because the owners of the original work have chosen not to sue? Or do they not care? Didn't "Shadows of Isildur" have a problem like that for awhile with the Tolkien heirs? Seems if I had invented a popular tabletop fantasy game, & someone decided to base a Mud on my game, I would want to be paid some kind of royalty for the use of my ideas and/or trademark, even if the Mud was free.

I understand what your saying but really there is nothing they can do as long as i dont start charging people to play (I would never do that.) I have seen a few other projects come into truble such as this, and the judge allowed the game to continu. The only time the designers reallly got in truble was when they were chargning people to play.

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by (Visching101 @ April 01 2006,18:17) I understand what your saying but really there is nothing they can do as long as i dont start charging people to play (I would never do that.)

10 Big Myths about copyright explained

2) "If I don't charge for it, it's not a violation."
False. Whether you charge can affect the damages awarded in court, but that's main difference under the law. It's still a violation if you give it away -- and there can still be serious damages if you hurt the commercial value of the property.

If another company has purchased the rights to produce a commercial mud based on Warhammer, then you could well be damaging the commercial value of the property, by drawing away paying customers - and even if you weren't, as soon as they found out about your mud they'd be forced to take action to protect their trademarks from being weakened or even lost.

Originally Posted by I have seen a few other projects come into truble such as this, and the judge allowed the game to continu.

Please cite.

[Visching101]

Yes but because of not charging and not doing anything to hurt the warhammer franchise the worst that could happen would be a shut down, or take over (and i dont think they would do that.) There was a Warhammer fantasy mud around a while back, i think thet just shut down last year. And Games Workshop did not take any actions against them.

The mude i was talking about in the end was a Lord of the Rings mud. i think this was 4 or so years ago but the judge sided with them aloowing them to keep it running. It was only a little before thet last movie was made when they were forced to shut down (but had to pay no fees.) As far as i know the kept the whole game and only made a few changes and re-named the game, they should be going public beta sometime this year.

[Angie]

Originally Posted by (Visching101 @ April 01 2006,20:50) The mude i was talking about in the end was a Lord of the Rings mud. i think this was 4 or so years ago but the judge sided with them aloowing them to keep it running. It was only a little before thet last movie was made when they were forced to shut down (but had to pay no fees.) As far as i know the kept the whole game and only made a few changes and re-named the game, they should be going public beta sometime this year.

If you mean Shadows if Isildur, there was never a judge involved. They almost had to close down, but managed to settle matters with Tolkien Enterprises and obtain their permission to continue.

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by (Visching101 @ April 01 2006,19:50) Yes but because of not charging and not doing anything to hurt the warhammer franchise the worst that could happen would be a shut down, or take over (and i dont think they would do that.)

They couldn't take you over, but they could certainly shut you down - and also claim damages, if they wished to do so.

The question is whether you really want to take that risk.

Originally Posted by The mude i was talking about in the end was a Lord of the Rings mud. i think this was 4 or so years ago but the judge sided with them aloowing them to keep it running.

I have never heard of this. Could you please cite the case?

[Visching101]

Originally Posted by (Angie @ April 01 2006,13:54) Originally Posted by (Visching101 @ April 01 2006,20:50) The mude i was talking about in the end was a Lord of the Rings mud. i think this was 4 or so years ago but the judge sided with them aloowing them to keep it running. It was only a little before thet last movie was made when they were forced to shut down (but had to pay no fees.) As far as i know the kept the whole game and only made a few changes and re-named the game, they should be going public beta sometime this year. If you mean Shadows if Isildur, there was never a judge involved. They almost had to close down, but managed to settle matters with Tolkien Enterprises and obtain their permission to continue.

Could be, not really sure. But as i said before the other Warhammer mud had no truble before shutting down. And alot of mods for games are based on Warhammer so i dont think GW really has a problem with fan base games. There is also a D20 type Warhammer rule book for free online (being worked on now.) I just cant see GW letting all those other games/mods/books go free and take legal actions on a mud.

[Visching101]

Originally Posted by (KaVir @ April 01 2006,13:59) Originally Posted by (Visching101 @ April 01 2006,19:50) Yes but because of not charging and not doing anything to hurt the warhammer franchise the worst that could happen would be a shut down, or take over (and i dont think they would do that.) They couldn't take you over, but they could certainly shut you down - and also claim damages, if they wished to do so. The question is whether you really want to take that risk. Originally Posted by The mude i was talking about in the end was a Lord of the Rings mud. i think this was 4 or so years ago but the judge sided with them aloowing them to keep it running. I have never heard of this. Could you please cite the case?

I cant quite remember the name of the game, but i should be able to find the article i saw it in online. Ill try to look for it a little later and post or pm it to you.

[GuruPlayer]

Originally Posted by (Visching101 @ April 01 2006,12:17) I understand what your saying but really there is nothing they can do as long as i dont start charging people to play (I would never do that.)

Are you naive, or just being arrogant?  You been advised by veterans on this thread, that what you're considering is a  copyright violation, & another poster advised that the owners are aggressive in defending that copyright.  Yet you sound like you're living in lala land, where anybody can do anything they want with someone's hard work, & not suffer any consequences.  

You claim to know of cases where judges have ruled in favor of the rip-off artists, so show us proof of these so-called cases, or are you just full of hot air?

If I was a coder with any kind of common sense, I would stay far away from this project, as it sounds like it hasn't been researched.

[Visching101]

Originally Posted by (GuruPlayer @ April 01 2006,19:24) Originally Posted by Visching101,April 01 2006,12:17 I understand what your saying but really there is nothing they can do as long as i dont start charging people to play (I would never do that.) Are you naive, or just being arrogant? You been advised by veterans on this thread, that what you're considering is a copyright violation, & another poster advised that the owners are aggressive in defending that copyright. Yet you sound like you're living in lala land, where anybody can do anything they want with someone's hard work, & not suffer any consequences. You claim to know of cases where judges have ruled in favor of the rip-off artists, so show us proof of these so-called cases, or are you just full of hot air? If I was a coder with any kind of common sense, I would stay far away from this project, as it sounds like it hasn't been researched.

You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about. I have several friends of mine that are in law school right now and know of all possible actions that could be taken agents me, again the worst being they shut me down. If they were to claim damages chances are they would not win and if they did I think I can deal with the small fine without a problem. As I sated in my last post I will look for the article of about the LOTR mud (it was posted on mudmagic quite sometime ago.) And basing your game off of other stuff is not being a rip off artist. It's making fan games or movies, if what you’re saying is trying then 95% of the contributors on newgrounds would be getting hit with lawsuits left and right.

[GuruPlayer]

In other words, screw ethics, & the law.  And no matter how much of a fan you are, using someone else's HARD-EARNED work, is ripping them off, no matter how you much you attempt to justify it.  If you're such an avid mudder, why don't you try designing an original fantasy/sci-fi world of your own, instead of leeching off of other people's talent?

[Hadoryu]

Eh, I don't think fan-made content was ever considered to be quite so malicious as it's being considered in the days of copyright paranoia.

But honestly, why don't you just write up a nice long mail asking them if they wouldn't mind? Explain to them the scope of what you're going to do, that it's going to be non-commercial etc. Explain in detail why you're not going to cost them anything because of the nature of your game. I think it'd be a lot better to have an answer now than to put in all of that hard work into making the MUD and then getting shut down the next friday.

[Milawe]

Originally Posted by (Hadoryu @ April 02 2006,05:33) But honestly, why don't you just write up a nice long mail asking them if they wouldn't mind? Explain to them the scope of what you're going to do, that it's going to be non-commercial etc. Explain in detail why you're not going to cost them anything because of the nature of your game. I think it'd be a lot better to have an answer now than to put in all of that hard work into making the MUD and then getting shut down the next friday.

Excellent advice!! Ask for permission first when it comes to using someone else's copyright. They CAN shut you down whether or you're free, commercial, etc. The only way they can't shut you down is if only you (and maybe a few friends) play on the mud. Now, granted, I'm not saying they WILL shut you down. They just CAN shut you down.

Don't think that you're out of the scope of legal action if you're from another country either. GW is not a US company though they have a US branch. They are a British company, and they are well versed in international copyright laws.

Mythic is the second company to work on a Warhammer MMO. GW pulled support from the first company and revoked their license. The first company tried to keep going for a while without GW. That didn't work out so well.

Anyway, just ask and make sure!!

[Threshold]

Originally Posted by (Visching101 @ April 01 2006,19:39) You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about. I have several friends of mine that are in law school right now and know of all possible actions that could be taken agents me, again the worst being they shut me down. If they were to claim damages chances are they would not win and if they did I think I can deal with the small fine without a problem.

Wow. Assuming you are telling the truth, your friends are all going to flunk out of law school.

When someone has a registered trademark or copyright and someone illegally uses their IP, damages are PRESUMED. In other words, they would not even be required to prove they suffered economic damages. Whether or not they were damaged would be decided in their favor on summary judgement, and the only question would be "How much?" You would not even be allowed by the court to argue that they were not economically damaged. Depending on how many users your game had at the time they decided to sue you, the damages would start in the thousands and could very easily and quickly climb into the tens of thousands if not worse.

The reason this is such a titanically bad idea is because there is another company (Mythic) that is currently working on a Warhammer MMO. As a result, there is a much more immediate reason for at least two companies (Games Workshop and Mythic) to defend this intellectual property specifically as it pertains to online RPG usage. You couldn't pick a much worse time to be considering making a Warhammer MUD (well, I guess you could wait until the Warhammer MMO is released - then it would be a tad worse).

As an added bonus, Mythic is well aware of the mud community, as they still run a commercial text based mud that is actually listed here on TMS. So it is very unlikely that anyone who made a Warhammer MUD would be able to "fly under the radar" for very long - especially after posting here.

The smart thing you could do would be to email GW and/or Mythic. Then when you get your polite rejection, you can choose a different genre for your mud. The foolish thing to do would be to plunge forward, following the erroneous advice of your "law school friends."