[Terloch]

No reason to even make it that complicated of a rule change.

Simply require that all voting links to TMS and/or the voting portal page are DIRECT links and not through any kind of proxy or tracking page.

It's that simple.

[Davairus]

Yeah, that's nice too.  As long as they don't come up with some way of concealing the evidence of recording the link click (i.e. destroying proof of cheating), that would be sufficient.

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by (Stilton @ June 16 2004,19:11) It should be simple: log yourself landing 5/10 punches before clicking the vote button and 8/10 after (adjust for whatever the reward is).

Well if you do something as obvious as that, then sure it'll be easier to spot, but it could be made much more subtle - for example the slightly-fudged dice rolls thing I mentioned in a previous post, or a slightly increased chance of skills increasing when used, or a slightly better chance of a decent magical item popping, or a slightly greater chance to flee, or slightly slower responding mob AI...or a combination of many such small factors.

But even in the case of something like landing attacks, it can be very difficult to take into account outside factors (even assuming both characters fight in exactly the same way each time). For example, perhaps you were playing a vampire who gains bonuses at night and penalties during the day, and that's why more of your attacks hit. Or maybe you simply got unlucky at the beginning of the fight and took a wound which reduced your fighting ability...

Originally Posted by If you can't tell the difference even when you're looking closely, then it isn't much of an incentive.

For a PK mud the difference would only have to be "he seems to win more fights even though X, Y and Z" - and you get that so much anyway that it could be pretty much dismissed as any sort of evidence.

Originally Posted by It might well be possible to cheat for a while. Most of the top ranked muds are in this for the long haul, though: cheating for even a few months but then getting caught and kicked off the list doesn't count as winning to them.

True - but they're already high ranked, and most probably wouldn't risk it. It's the muds which covet a high rank yet are not getting sufficient votes that would be more likely to be a problem.

[surviv0r]

Originally Posted by (Rundvelt @ June 13 2004,17:21) As for Logos, a couple things... 1) It did happen. You want to say it didn't and call me a liar, I could care less. If you want to check I believe it was around the Jan - Feb timeframe when there was the thread about Achaea offering rewards to people (I think it was after christmas, definitly winter time)

Then

Originally Posted by (the_logos @ June 15 2004) The guy is now claiming that this happened in the winter

To which you replied

Originally Posted by (Rundvelt @ June 16 2004,07:51) 1) I never included a date in my notes

Ok, you didn't include an EXACT date. You did mention, however, that is was in January or February which would support the_logos' claim that it happened in the winter

[Yui Unifex]

Originally Posted by ("the_logos" @ June 16 2004,21:22) What is this? 10th grade? Give me a break, you were OBVIOUSLY referring to our muds. I'd return the favour and attack yours but after checking on your mud and finding 6 people online, I figured that about said it all and logged off.

I think your response here pretty much says it all about your level of maturity. You are quite the hypocrite to be attacking Molly on this basis.

Edit: Looks like he kept this portion from his initial response, so I changed my post to reflect that.

Now for the on-topic portion of my post:
I can't see a problem with a single reminder message that a player needs to vote again. I understand that this is a form of treating voting and non-voting players differently, but it seems useful enough that it could be an exception. At least, that's the only argument I've heard against the rule clarification other than the_logos' humorous miscomprehensions, so perhaps we could put this to rest with its inclusion.

[Traithe]

Thanks, Yui.

I was beginning to wonder if I was the only one around here willing to draw a distinction between useful reminders and abusive spam.

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by (surviv0r @ June 17 2004,10:28) Ok, you didn't include an EXACT date. You did mention, however, that is was in January or February which would support the_logos' claim that it happened in the winter

I believe the point Rundvelt is making is that he never claimed otherwise - that he never specified a date originally, and it was only later that he clarified winter.  Thus his response seems to be to counter the implication that he'd changed his story.

Having said that, I have to wonder why he waited 4-5 months before bringing the subject up.

[Rundvelt]

Originally Posted by (the_logos @ June 16 2004,21:21) Dude, you provided -no- proof, and don't even have the name of your character right. I'm under no onus to "prove" anything. Regardless, you're lying. Our Guides don't pester people to vote. --matt

Logos, a couple points as usual...

1) Sorry if I don't remember the character name for a mud I hardly spent any time on many months ago. I'll log everything in the future just for you. (BTW, it #### well could have been a year and a half ago, but I was right about the winter).

2) You're right, you don't have to prove anything. But if you are going to TRY and prove something (Ie, that I'm a blatent liar), be prepared to be critisised when you do it incorrectly.

3) You're right, I didn't provide any proof. I don't make proof up to back up my arguements.

Kavir, I didn't wait this long, I was just reading the helpfile one day and noticed that negatives for not voting weren't listed. I also wanted to see to what "negatives and positives" were allowed or not. For example, if I give everyone a spellup saying "Thanks to Firestorm for being the Best voter this Month" is that ok? Is it ok to send tells to people who haven't voted? What degree should people be treated equally.

The admin answered, I'm satisified.

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (Yui Unifex @ June 17 2004,06:19) Originally Posted by "the_logos",June 16 2004,21:22 What is this? 10th grade? Give me a break, you were OBVIOUSLY referring to our muds. I'd return the favour and attack yours but after checking on your mud and finding 6 people online, I figured that about said it all and logged off. I think your response here pretty much says it all about your level of maturity.  You are quite the hypocrite to be attacking Molly on this basis. Edit: Looks like he kept this portion from his initial response, so I changed my post to reflect that. Now for the on-topic portion of my post: I can't see a problem with a single reminder message that a player needs to vote again.  I understand that this is a form of treating voting and non-voting players differently, but it seems useful enough that it could be an exception.  At least, that's the only argument I've heard against the rule clarification other than the_logos' humorous miscomprehensions, so perhaps we could put this to rest with its inclusion.

Originally Posted by I think your response here pretty much says it all about your level of maturity.  You are quite the hypocrite to be attacking Molly on this basis.

No, I'm just not going to be a child about slinging insults. Molly can hide her slander behind vague wordings. I prefer to be direct. If she's not implying Iron Realms is cheating, who is she implying is cheating? Is she accusing Aardwolf or Threshold? Perhaps Armaggedon or Aabahran? She was attacking somebody, after all, and those are the top 7 muds right now.

Everyone reading her posts is well aware of who she is attacking, so why dissemble about it?

--matt
Edit: In retrospect, I do realize I shouldn't have responded to her attacks with an attack of my own. I apologize to the forum readers for doing that.

[Fifi]

I didn't think she was attacking anyone. I thought she was adding an anedotal comment on the discussion.

[Brody]

Originally Posted by (Fifi @ June 17 2004,17:07) I didn't think she was attacking anyone. I thought she was adding an anedotal comment on the discussion.

As a longtime reader and participant in these forums, I can say that it's not hard - based on Molly and the_logos past interactions - to draw the conclusion that her comment was a subtle jab at the Iron Realms games. They've clashed MANY times before .

That said, I think it's good that the_logos at least acknowledged he shouldn't counter with his own overt attack.

[Prythe]

I have played Achaea, rather seriously, for about 18 months.

Sometimes I love it.  Sometimes I hate it.  

Every last word Matt says is true.

When I first started playing I received an experience bonus for voting.  They discontinued that practice shortly thereafter (darn it!.

Then they instituted an "everybody might get a bonus" system.   But removed that one as well when there was a perception  that would be inappropriate under the rules of this site.

There are reminders, yes.  I am able to set how often I am reminded to vote.  I can set it to be as rare as once every 12 hours.

A simple statement "Have you voted today?"   - It is no bother to see it, nor do I feel compelled to run and vote when I do see it.

I most often remember to vote, make it a point to vote,  and do vote, when I am particularly happy about something, such as the implemenation of a new game (FOOZLE! or a new "something to do" (FISHING!.

I most often say, "I am never going to vote for them again" when I am annoyed about something, like the fact that my in-game spouse and I cannot jointly adopt a child, or when there are events that make it impossible to get my daily "work" done because they are free/open PK.  I might not lose any experience, but I like to be able to walk without getting jumped.  I'm silly like that.

Regardless - Matt is telling the truth.  There is no Achaean incentive to vote, there is no Achaean pressure to vote, there is no Achaean bombardment of requests to vote.   Romeo and Juliet do not tell people to vote.

Some *players* get carried away with the concept and "remind" others - they are not being provided an incentive to do so.  Perhaps they like the game.   Some of us do.  Most of the time, at least.  

What is Matt supposed to do?  Disallow players telling other players to vote?  

That's asinine.

You know what Matt is going to most like about this thread?  I now feel invigorated about voting, and am going to try and remember to do so, not daily, but twice a day, as permitted.  At least until I get annoyed at something again. ::grin::

Because Achaea is not perfect, and Matt is not perfect, and TMS is not perfect (but is also not a charitable organization) and anybody who does not like Achaea or Matt or Iron Realms can at least take the time and trouble to show some honesty and integrity in their complaints, rather than lie.

It's as simple as that.

Going to vote now,
Prythe

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (Brody @ June 17 2004,17:30) [As a longtime reader and participant in these forums, I can say that it's not hard - based on Molly and the_logos past interactions - to draw the conclusion that her comment was a subtle jab at the Iron Realms games. They've clashed MANY times before .

I'll just conclude with this: I don't attack people who don't attack me first. I finally just got sick of Molly's totally unprovoked attacks on me and integrity of our company. Any clashes between her and I are a result of her attacking me first. Every single one. Including the time she publically all but came out and said we harbor paedophiles (and I'm not joking, unbelievably) on this very site. I don't know if she's a disgruntled ex-player or doesn't like Hungarians or what.

Again, I apologize if I lowered myself to that level, but in my defence I was at least responding to an attack rather than initiating one.
--matt

[Keturah]

And some of us in Achaea have so much fun, we would vote anyhow, just to help out a company that provides endless hours of entertainment. If I added up what I have spent on Achaea, I spend far far more on other activities and don't spend nearly as much time doing them.

Keturah

[Molly]

Originally Posted by I'll just conclude with this: I don't attack people who don't attack me first. I finally just got sick of Molly's totally unprovoked attacks on me and integrity of our company. Any clashes between her and I are a result of her attacking me first. Every single one. Including the time she publically all but came out and said we harbor paedophiles (and I'm not joking, unbelievably) on this very site. I don't know if she's a disgruntled ex-player or doesn't like Hungarians or what.

I feel I need to comment on this, and that too will be my conclusion:

It is true that I am no big fan of Matt Mihaly. I am not alone in this sentiment, and it is based on a long number of events over the years, where he in my opinion has acted inflammatory and/or unethically. Some things that come to mind are the cheesy ads he used to run, where certain fictive persons voted Achaea the #1 mud in the world, some very inflammatory remarks about builders, and above all the thread he started and very actively carried out, where he urged everybody to break the Diku licence by going commercial, because according to him the wording in the licence was not strong enough to stand up in court and the 'intent' was nothing people needed to worry about.

When I read something on the boards that I don't like, I usually react and reply to it in some way. That's what discussion boards are for, I thought. If he wants to call this 'totally unprovoked attacks ' that is his interpretation. He is very apt at interpreting other people's posts in ways they were never intended. If I 'attacked' him more than others on the board it is because he has managed to post more things that annoyed me over the years than any other poster. Plain and simple.

Since he brought up the pedophile story again, I suggest that you all go back and check out WHO brought that pedophile into a totally unrelated discussion, and who said what and when. What  I did was comment on his own exact words. I didn't think his raccount of how he handled the situation was appropriate, and that is also what I said.

For the record, I have never even visited Achaea, which is probably a good mud, it's the owner and his actions I have a problem with. I also find his pun about me not liking Hungarians pretty insulting, but that is no more than I expected from him.

I am not going to apologise to the board, because I don't feel that I have anything to apologise for. I posted a true story of an incident that happened on my own Mud, as an illustration of how easy it would be to cheat with the votes. He took it up from there, and yet he claims I attacked first?

I'll end this with a quote from a note he sent to me by Messenger (no, not the one where he threatened to sue me, if I didn't hold my tongue):

Originally Posted by I'm just glad to see that thread going for so long. Achaea has seen a 9% rise in registrations from Topmudsites in the last week. --matt

[Dre]

Originally Posted by Quote   I'm just glad to see that thread going for so long. Achaea has seen a 9% rise in registrations from Topmudsites in the last week. --matt

I think there's a saying (at least in my part of the world) that says bad publicity is publicity too. So I am certain Matt is happy with this thread, or any other threads where people complain about Achaea.

That said, I think this thread is really over the top anyway. There is someone who claims he gets bugged on a mud about voting (so what, go away) and there is someone who is claiming nothing happened. Then several other people claim nothing happens etc. In the end, this thread is only in favor of the already big mud.

In regard to the real topic: should muds be allowed to pester people to vote? Sure, you scare your people away if you want to, your decision. Could you do something about hidden incentives (as mentioned by Kavir)? I don't think so.

Automatic voting? No, that should be prohibited, and could possibly be found out, if there was some more interaction needed on TMS (like the pictures with letters you have to fill in). However if it's worth the hassle, I am not sure.

Greetings,

Dre

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by (Dre @ June 18 2004,10:26) In regard to the real topic: should muds be allowed to pester people to vote? Sure, you scare your people away if you want to, your decision. Could you do something about hidden incentives (as mentioned by Kavir)? I don't think so.

Well yes, you could - simply by preventing mud owners from being able to determine who has voted.