[WarHound]

I have a request that someone nail the recently posted Legends of the Lance review, in which the poster makes alot of crap insults, namely a hsot against Jews.

It makes me sick that even here, on MU*'s where there is no color or races that bigot morons can still spew their filth and hate.

Get a clue little man. If the admin at Legends of the Lance got rid of idiots like you, they are on the right track, because you would obviously only ruin the experience for those of us who don't have **** for brains. I'll be trying LotL now.

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (WarHound @ July 21 2004,13:26) It makes me sick that even here, on MU*'s where there is no color or races that bigot morons can still spew their filth and hate.

What? Most muds have multiple races and most muds are EXTREMELY racist. Nearly all muds ascribe certain personality traits universally to specific races, intelligence (or the lack thereof) to specific races, and so on. That's the very epitomy of racism.

--matt

[Amnon]

Talking about different kinds of races here... You're saying "Don't say dogs are less intelligent than people!", but the original post claimed "Don't say person A is less intelligent than person B just because he believes in the Torah or has a different skin color"

[Angie]

The Rise of the Dragonarmies reviews are even worse.

I agree they should be removed.

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (Amnon @ July 21 2004,16:08) Talking about different kinds of races here... You're saying "Don't say dogs are less intelligent than people!", but the original post claimed "Don't say person A is less intelligent than person B just because he believes in the Torah or has a different skin color"

Oh? We have multiple types of a particular race (Tsol'aa) in Achaea, for instance, and regularly ascribe specific traits to them. The Tsol'teth branch, for instance, is evil. The Tsol'dasi branch is good. Highly racist.

Fantasy books and worlds engage in this kind of thing all the time.

--matt

[WarHound]

Fair enough, logos, I'll rephrase:

It shocks me that even here, in the world of Mu*'s, with a plethora of opportunitys to spread hate and racism in a fantasy setting, that some people still bring their RL prejudices and bigotry.

Better?

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (WarHound @ July 21 2004,17:43) Fair enough, logos, I'll rephrase: It shocks me that even here, in the world of Mu*'s, with a plethora of opportunitys to spread hate and racism in a fantasy setting, that some people still bring their RL prejudices and bigotry. Better?

Heh heh, yes. Let's burn the dwarves, not the Eskimos. I'm with you.

--matt, dwarf hater.

[Gemini]

Yes indeed, it does make me sick. Luckily, on one of the MUD's i play, the one that acutally attracts alot of people like that (for who knows what reason) severly punishes racism. Listen, this is the way i see it. Sure your allowed to have your own view, but if it is gerally un-accepted, then keep your mouth shut. Most people MUD to get away from all the things we dont like in real life

But yeah, im a victim of MUDracism. Im curently the only Troll on the prior mentioned MUD, and i never stop getting **** about it. In the worlds of Welkasre, "TROLL POWER!!"

[Treestump]

I agree that there are definitely problems with the review system here. Two suggestions I would make:

When viewing a review, add a link to "report" the review to the webmater or whoever is in charge of the site. Anything vulgar, obscene or otherwise unacceptable could be easily relayed to the staff for removal.

Secondly, give viewers the ability to "rate" a review. Places like Amazon use this procedure. Reviews are then listed not in chronological order, but based on their rating. This way poorly written reviews (short, no facts, etc) will get pushed to the bottom of the review list.

[the_logos]

Or you could just ignore them given that they have no value as reviews. =)

[Valg]

Or you could just ignore them given that they have no value as reviews. =)

Yes, but you have to click through the chaff to get to the useful information. The advantage to the 'ranking' system is that it saves you time, not that it provides you insight into any one particular review.

[Gemini]

the problem i see with this is that people would always rank down bad reviews to their mud, even if it their points are valid and well thought out. ####, maybe even give rewards of other doing it. ya never know

[John]

Originally Posted by (the_logos @ July 22 2004,16:10) Or you could just ignore them given that they have no value as reviews. =)

None of the "reviews" have value as reviews

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (John @ July 23 2004,00:47) Originally Posted by the_logos,July 22 2004,16:10 Or you could just ignore them given that they have no value as reviews. =) None of the "reviews" have value as reviews

That's exactly what I said!

--matt

[John]

Originally Posted by (the_logos @ July 23 2004,03:25) That's exactly what I said!

I thought you meant the reviews that the original poster was talking about (the one bigots in them ). I on the other hand was talking about all the reviews.

It's actually pretty annoying. I went looking for some good reviews for the game I play, to perhaps ask the webmaster if she thought putting them on the website would be a good idea. Only to find out all of them are advertisements rather then reviews.

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (John @ July 23 2004,04:54) I thought you meant the reviews that the original poster was talking about (the one bigots in them ). I on the other hand was talking about all the reviews. It's actually pretty annoying. I went looking for some good reviews for the game I play, to perhaps ask the webmaster if she thought putting them on the website would be a good idea. Only to find out all of them are advertisements rather then reviews.

Yep. I don't really understand why TMS bothers having them.

--matt

[Brody]

Originally Posted by (the_logos @ July 23 2004,14:22) Originally Posted by (John @ July 23 2004,04:54) I thought you meant the reviews that the original poster was talking about (the one bigots in them ). I on the other hand was talking about all the reviews. It's actually pretty annoying. I went looking for some good reviews for the game I play, to perhaps ask the webmaster if she thought putting them on the website would be a good idea. Only to find out all of them are advertisements rather then reviews. Yep. I don't really understand why TMS bothers having them. --matt

Well, I can see why TMS bothers having them. They're player reviews and they generate traffic to this site. Whether they're high quality, accurate or objective is beside the point. They simply provide another interactive aspect for TMS.

[Valg]

I've found a number of the Carrion Fields reviews to be very useful in describing our game to potential new players. Likely more than half. They also tend to hit topics besides what we usually talk about in our promotional material, and I appreciate that they give a broader perspective.

A sorting system would help de-emphasize the less useful reviews. If you don't find the reviews for your game useful to anyone, or if you've disallowed reviews, a sorting system doesn't hurt you, in any event. Go find something else to complain about.

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by I've found a number of the Carrion Fields reviews to be very useful in describing our game to potential new players. Likely more than half. They also tend to hit topics besides what we usually talk about in our promotional material, and I appreciate that they give a broader perspective.

What you're describing sounds a lot more like advertisements than reviews.

Originally Posted by A sorting system would help de-emphasize the less useful reviews.

Which would be all of them.

Brody's point is valid, however. I suppose it does increase activity on the site, however minimally.

--matt

[Swervin]

Hello, long time reader, frist time poster. I'm Branchala on rise of the dragonarmies, owner of the mud. Please don't confuse the attitutde of a few of the reviewers with the attitude of the entire mud. Hate speech is not encouraged on my mud in any way, although I do not tell players what they can and can not say on non public channels, as long as they're not harassing other players.

Originally Posted by (Swervin @ July 24 2004,02:24) Hate speech is not encouraged on my mud in any way, although I do not tell players what they can and can not say on non public channels, as long as they're not harassing other players.

Oh that's vague.   Define harassing. ;-)

[Jazuela]

Speaking of bad reviews (ha - that makes this on topic, so there!

Killer wrote, oh so eloquently in his "review" on Wolfenburg:

FYI, I am a veteran mudder, & D&D player since the invention of D&D. I gravitate to enforced roleplay muds, I am no pkiller,no power-leveller & no newbie. In my opinion, if TOP MUD SITES where able to screen you commercial muds from even appearing on this site, that would be GREAT! But, since they can't, it's up to players like me to speak up when disguised advertising (i.e. Juxquin's review) appears.

To which I respond:

If TOP MUD SITES were able to screen you people who don't know the difference between a review section and a discussion forum, that would be GREAT!

Alright now kids, move along - nothing to see here.

[Valg]

Valg:

Originally Posted by I've found a number of the Carrion Fields reviews to be very useful in describing our game to potential new players.  Likely more than half.  They also tend to hit topics besides what we usually talk about in our promotional material, and I appreciate that they give a broader perspective.

the_logos: What you're describing sounds a lot more like advertisements than reviews.

Valg:

Originally Posted by A sorting system would help de-emphasize the less useful reviews.

the_logos:  Which would be all of them.

No.  Advertisements are written by us, and are designed to promote the game.  Reviews are written by our players, contain both positive and negative comments, and are designed to give one person's opinion of the game.  We do not control the content of our reviews, nor do we 'reward' people for posting them.

You've made it clear that you find the combined content of all reviews worthless.  I get the feeling you'd rather have a site where the only person talking is 'the_logos', and the rest of us just basked in your wisdom and posted things like "Yeah!", "Woo!", and "You go, girl!".  I'm a member on the discussion MUD forum you run, and I've seen how well things go when you control the content.  How many posts a month are there?  (Hint: Not many.)  How many of them are yours?  (Hint: Most of them.)  How many of your posts are wondering why no one feels like having discussions in that environment?  (Hint: A sizable fraction.)  Do you really feel qualified to comment on how to run this sort of website?  Or do you just feel a need to be recognized for how 'above' the discussion you are?

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by I get the feeling you'd rather have a site where the only person talking is 'the_logos', and the rest of us just basked in your wisdom and posted things like "Yeah!", "Woo!", and "You go, girl!". I'm a member on the discussion MUD forum you run, and I've seen how well things go when you control the content. How many posts a month are there? (Hint: Not many.) How many of them are yours? (Hint: Most of them.) How many of your posts are wondering why no one feels like having discussions in that environment? (Hint: A sizable fraction.)

You know, I was wondering why he'd started posting here again, after telling us all that he was no longer going to participate in these discussion forums...

[Jedediah]

Going back to the idea that muds are racist-- I don't think that's true at all, unless you're playing NaziMUD using the DiKKKu codebase.  Because you say elves have higher intelligence than trolls is not racist, it's simple fact, much in the same way you can say parrots are smarter than turkeys.  

Let's call them specist, instead.

[Enola_Phoenix]

Since this topic no longer applies to the title the author created it with, seeing as how the flame war began with the_logos give the guy a break if it weren't for him and Kavir how interesting would these things be? More informative yes, interesting not really.... With that said with no point and really no meaning I will go twiddle my thumb and continue to see what hilarously funny stuff comes out next.

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (Valg @ July 26 2004,12<!--emo&[img http://www.topmudsites.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif[/img])] How many posts a month are there?  (Hint: Not many.)  How many of them are yours?  (Hint: Most of them.)  How many of your posts are wondering why no one feels like having discussions in that environment?  (Hint: A sizable fraction.)  Do you really feel qualified to comment on how to run this sort of website?

No, there are not many. Unlike here where there ARE many posts, but they're largely noise. I mean, I learned more from one of Bartle's posts on Mind's Eye than I ever have here, despite the much-more-frequent postings here.

Do I feel qualified to comment on how to run a site like Topmudsites? Yes, though it's got nothing to do with Mind's Eye. Remember that TMS and Mind's Eye have explicitly different purposes. TMS exists for...well, I'm not quite sure. Probably some pocket money for Synozeer along with a general good feeling he gets for running a site that's well-respected by mudders. Mind's Eye is explicitly non-commercial and was put together to allow people with actual successful experience to share that experience with each other. Unfortunately, there aren't that many text mud people with actual successful experience and there are a lot of concerns that commercial muds have that non-commercial ones don't.

What I'd love to see is for Topmudsites to improve the signal to noise ratio where it was similar to Mind's Eye, but with more participants and more traffic. I'm not sure if it's possible. Perhaps we will just open Mind's Eye to more people but simply ban all flaming or ad hominem attacks (*ahem*) and all advertisements so as not to compete with the content here or at Mudconnector.

--matt

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (Jedediah @ July 26 2004,13:24) Going back to the idea that muds are racist-- I don't think that's true at all, unless you're playing NaziMUD using the DiKKKu codebase.  Because you say elves have higher intelligence than trolls is not racist, it's simple fact, much in the same way you can say parrots are smarter than turkeys.   Let's call them specist, instead.

How about when you say wood elves have a lower intelligence than high elves? Sounds to me like saying Caucasian humans have a lower intelligence than Asian humans.

--matt

[John]

Originally Posted by (Valg @ July 26 2004,12:02) No. Advertisements are written by us, and are designed to promote the game. Reviews are written by our players, contain both positive and negative comments, and are designed to give one person's opinion of the game.

That's how it should work. How it really works is... Advertisements are written by us, and are designed to promote the game. Reviews are written by our players and are designed to promote the game (except when there is a disgruntled player, then it is designed to slam the mud).

I'd love for there to be more reviews, but for the mud I play there aren't (m)any. There are, however, plenty of great advertisements

[Kenjar]

I think horrible reviews should stay up. Why? Well, reviews are supposed to influence your choice in whether or not to play a mud. So if a mud has a whole slew of reviews that you think are terrible, that tells you that the playerbase are not a bunch of people you'd want to spend any amount of time with. There ya go. They did their job by influencing your choice.