[Threshold]

Originally Posted by (Shane @ May 06 2006,15:59) Hmm... Trademark? I don't know the difference. Surely putting trademarked names on there.. but no...

There is even fair use when it comes to trademarks. The key is whether or not a reasonable person would be confused into thinking the user in question is the actual holder of the trademark. That is certainly not the case on gold seller/buyer sites.

Originally Posted by (Shane @ May 06 2006,15:59) I don't know. What a bummer. I do know that the motive behind the constant nattering on of in game perks for money is it makes it no longer a game in any real sense. Imagine monopoly where you could buy monopoly money with real money... who would play? It just makes the competition aspect something between tainted and fully null.

Well the problem there is that most of the gold/item/character buying is done to eliminate the idiotic and excessively painful "grind" that exists in the big, graphical MMOs. For example, it should come as no surprise that people don't think it is fun or exciting to grind out 1,000 gold in WoW just so they can have a faster mount (which in turn gives no real advantage other than reducing the tedium of inane travel times).

Sure, there is some degree of competitive advantage from buying gold, items, etc. but most of that stuff can also be obtained in game. Does it make any more sense for the "catassers" (a term I am borrowing from a professor named Edward Castranova who studies virtual worlds) who play 10+ hours a day to be the ones with all the advantages?

Originally Posted by (Shane @ May 06 2006,15:59) There's bound to be some way to control it via rules and whatnot. Like your game, Thresh, you have rules about cheating the quests... how has that worked out? How do you enforce them?

It works somewhat well in Threshold, but that is because it is a smaller community with an enormous amount of community enforcement. Despite this, there is still a significant amount of cheating on quests, and this is in a game where quests have NO BENEFIT. Yes, people cheat on them even though they have no rewards of any kind other than the sense of accomplishment from solving them. Yes, the contradiction of that is not lost on me. I always boggle at why anyone would cheat on a Threshold quest when they have zero reward.

[Threshold]

Originally Posted by (Shane @ May 06 2006,17:42) The cartoons are free, period. The merchandise is for profit. The cartoons function as advertising more or less.

Not really. Much of the merchandise has cartoons on it as well.

You are trying to make a distinction that is tenuous at best.

The point is, selling merchandise is no less a commercialization of your MUD, comic, internet site, etc. than charging for the content directly. They are just different business models that different sites use for a variety of financial, business, marketing, or personal reasons.

Many sites who use a merchanise revenue model take in a TON more money than sites that charge directly for content. It would be unwise and inaccurate to think the merchandise-based models are any less commercial or any less connected financially to the content they create to bring people to the site.

Put it this way:

1) The IRS doesn't view them differently.

2) Many (if not most or all) customers do not view it differently (they still feel they are a paying customer of the site, MUD, game, etc.).

3) Many owner/operators do not view it differently (they still operate as a business and they still know that their merchandise gets sold by providing content that brings people to the site and makes them want the merchandise).

If the IRS, customers, and business owers all treat these models the same, is it really reasonable to claim they are significantly different?

[Shane]

Originally Posted by (Threshold @ May 06 2006,17:45) Sure, there is some degree of competitive advantage from buying gold, items, etc. but most of that stuff can also be obtained in game. Does it make any more sense for the "catassers" (a term I am borrowing from a professor named Edward Castranova who studies virtual worlds) who play 10+ hours a day to be the ones with all the advantages?

LOL!

Hrm, good point.

I forget where but I was talking with Kavir or someone about that. I think it was in "advanced combat systems".

Combining the strategic feel of gaining power over time with the tactical feel of PvP has some challenges, the only cure for which I see is something like a base gain just for logging in and playing for x minutes as week, plus some sort of bonus for whatever you feel is worth giving the bonus for. For rp muds, x number of words typed in the presence of other active pc's might work. Typical hack and slashers might give bonuses for killing x points worth of mobs. There definitely needs to be something to keep catassers from dominating as they pretty much have for ages on muds, or video games in general.

I guess if I roll back my prejudices, I have to say though that in any competative game, such as golf for example, the prize often goes to the one who puts countless hours in, so there's some precedent to catassing I suppose.

Makes me ponder the development of the video game competitions that are beginning to be viable sourves of income for some of the best players. Those tend to be tactical sim games and the like with no leveling requirements. Unreal Tournament I think I saw on G4 for example.

[Shane]

Originally Posted by (Threshold @ May 06 2006,17:49) If the IRS, customers, and business owers all treat these models the same, is it really reasonable to claim they are significantly different?

They are definitely commercial sites either way.

I just see a very real difference between paying for competative advantage in a game and paying for a mug with Homestar on it, for example, from the customer's point of view.

[Shane]

The official design for WoW for example is a monthly subscription.

I think they were on to this feeling on the part of players, and perhaps just underestimated the willingness of some to sell what they can make in the game and the willingness of many to pay for those perks. It still feels like cheating to me though.

[Shane]

"The strategy: start a virtual world in a
game of truly massive scale, so that millions can use it at any time. Make the game free.
Allow people to use their credit cards to make transactions. Then wait for the society and
markets to develop, and invite Earth retailers to open 3D stores in the virtual space. At
that point, your Lara Croft lookalike avatar will be able to follow up her tough day of
adventuring with a run into the nearby virtual JC Penney -- to buy her owner a new suit,
for real money. The commercial potential of the new virtual worlds is impressive, and
makes them well worth a first look. "

The man Himself

More similar to the Homestar business model. Basically, the virtual world turns into advertising/marketing for the actual product.

[Ilkidarios]

I hope that never happens, otherwise half the world would waste away in an imaginary world. Not that it doesn't happen now, but an entirely self-sufficient virtual world is a little ridiculous.

[DonathinFrye]

Shane - one thing that has been discussed at length in the larger threads on this subject is the fact that Matt(the_logos) has insinuated that if Syno created two seperate lists(distinguishing IRE games from "100% Free MUDs"), that Matt would stop sending IRE traffic to the site and cease paying for advertising. Syno makes money off of this site, and between IRE's high traffic and aggressive advertising campaign, he seems to be willing to bend to such weight-throwing.

This subject comes up again and again, from new posters and old posters, and no argument yet has been brought up as to why adding the ability to add this search addition to the website should not be done.

Yes, it would require Syno being very specific with the site's definition and seperation of the two lists. However, that is not more than a few minutes of work and careful wording. I don't think that's too much to ask, and apparently, so do a whole lot of the active forum users here.

[Shane]

Hmm.

Well, that's a little hardball-esque I suppose, but on the other hand if Matt feels the distinction would make advertising here worthless, certainly he has the right to stop using the site if he wants.

I have to say though that without going to the extreme of making two entirely separate lists, one could have a tag that goes alongside the logos of the various muds to tell if they were commercial or not. That way the pay-for-perks or free-to-play crowd, however they choose to define themselves, could still get the exposure they want and the shoppers could have the distinctions quite clearly signalled at a glance on the rankings. If the distinction bothers Matt and others when it is not applied to muds who sell off-game perks like shirts or whatnot, three designations, or even four, would work. I am thinking here pay-to-play (recurring time based fees), pay for perks (pay for in game benefits), marketing-based-charge (for things you can buy like coffee mugs and whatnot), and free.

Marketing-based-charge is an awkward tagline, but you know some other name would work, and you could have simple little icons for each to show on the lists, and maybe even the potential for multiple tags. Maybe a mud is both pay-for-perks and marketing-based, for example, so they would have a little dollar sign with swords crossed in the background (pay for in game benefits) and then one with a little gift wrapped present (pay for stuff from a website associated, marketing etc). Pay per time period could be a flat out dollar sign and free could be a dollar sign with the red circle and hashmark thingy on it (no pay).

I really, honestly do believe though that the simple fact that the commercial muds advertise as "free-to-play" instead of just "free" like most muds do that are proud of their heritage as entirely non-commercial is enough for most people to make the distinction, though I do feel bad for the fellow who started this thread, as apparently he did not.

I picked up on it rather quickly when I visited their sites.

[Shane]

Originally Posted by (Ilkidarios @ May 06 2006,21:11) I hope that never happens, otherwise half the world would waste away in an imaginary world.  Not that it doesn't happen now, but an entirely self-sufficient virtual world is a little ridiculous.

I'm not sure I see the functional difference between this and being a couch potato, and at least it is interactive.

Real Life™ version 1.0 will always have certain advantages, I think, to anything the comptuer has to offer entertainment and socialization-wize though.

[DonathinFrye]

Those alternatives, as well as many others, have been discussed in length. Tags, lists, search options, MUD profile additions - nada. It is simply an idea called for in various forms by many, that will not succeed until something changes Syno's mind about buttering up his best customer.

[Fifi]

I disagree Threshold that being a t-shirt customer gives most rational human beings the idea that when they buy a tshirt that they're entitled to anything more than a tshirt. I don't even expect a thank you. Just a tshirt.

[Threshold]

Originally Posted by (Fifi @ May 06 2006,22:34) I disagree Threshold that being a t-shirt customer gives most rational human beings the idea that when they buy a tshirt that they're entitled to anything more than a tshirt. I don't even expect a thank you. Just a tshirt.

Then clearly you have only been a player, and not an admin.

I guarantee you that it is indeed quite common for people's expectations and demands to increase dramatically the moment they send a single penny to you for any reason - whether its merchandise, a donation, or a payment. And honestly, it isn't even an unreasonable expectation. It is quite logical.

[Valg]

Originally Posted by (Threshold @ May 07 2006,00:20) Then clearly you have only been a player, and not an admin. I guarantee you that it is indeed quite common for people's expectations and demands to increase dramatically the moment they send a single penny to you for any reason - whether its merchandise, a donation, or a payment. And honestly, it isn't even an unreasonable expectation. It is quite logical.

As an admin, I still haven't noticed that from our players. I think I've had one player in total try to play that card on me, and it was because he was being banned from our website and thought it mattered. Other than that, it doesn't get mentioned, and since I'm the one handling the receipts you'd think they'd go to me.

I also disagree that it's a logical expectation that buying a T-shirt or whatever entitles you to special treatment in other arenas unrelated to the purchase. I mean, I don't demand that Banana Republic employees go fetch me a soda.

That might change if we had a hefty fee like Threshold does, however, but the small change we deal in doesn't seem to carry those problems.

[Fifi]

Originally Posted by (Threshold @ May 07 2006,00:20) Originally Posted by (Fifi @ May 06 2006,22:34) I disagree Threshold that being a t-shirt customer gives most rational human beings the idea that when they buy a tshirt that they're entitled to anything more than a tshirt. I don't even expect a thank you. Just a tshirt. Then clearly you have only been a player, and not an admin. I guarantee you that it is indeed quite common for people's expectations and demands to increase dramatically the moment they send a single penny to you for any reason - whether its merchandise, a donation, or a payment. And honestly, it isn't even an unreasonable expectation. It is quite logical.

I have been an admin, for a mud that did sell shirts, though through a link to cafe press. I have no idea who did or did not buy the products or if anyone did.

[Anitra]

Threshold, May 07 2006,00:20

Originally Posted by Quote (Fifi @ May 06 2006,22:34) I disagree Threshold that being a t-shirt customer gives most rational human beings the idea that when they buy a tshirt that they're entitled to anything more than a tshirt. I don't even expect a thank you. Just a tshirt. Then clearly you have only been a player, and not an admin. I guarantee you that it is indeed quite common for people's expectations and demands to increase dramatically the moment they send a single penny to you for any reason - whether its merchandise, a donation, or a payment. And honestly, it isn't even an unreasonable expectation. It is quite logical.

I think this is one of the examples of the different cultures between a free mud and a commercial one that gives out perks for money.

A player in a free mud would normally assume that by buying a T-shirt from the website, he'd be doing exactly that; buying a T-shirt, no more, no less.
Why? Because nobody ever got any in game advantages for buying T-shirts in a free mud. It just never happens, so it's not expected.

On the other hand a player in a commercial mud would assume that when buying a perk, he'd not only be buying the actual perk, he'd also be buying better treatment from the Admin, in case he got into a conflict with another player, who was not a paying customer.
Why? Because in commercial muds that use the pay-for-perks system, this is how things work. The players that never pay any money for perks may be allowed to play the game 'for free', but they will also be regarded as second rate citizens.

And in case you think I make this up to be mean, here is a quote directly from 'the horse's mouth';

I give you Matthew Mihaly, 17th Feb 2000 on Mud-dev:

Originally Posted by > > Customer service on free muds is generally bad, but from what I've heard > from pay-to-play players, the customer service on commercial muds is rarely > any better. Well, I'll give you an example of what I consider to be good customer service. In my world, if a player is willing to pay for it, he or she can get nearly anything that won't make him/her an unstoppable killing machine. Elaborate houses with custom servants and bartenders, pets who I will code to respond specially to the player's friends and enemies, and so on. I've never seen a free mud (which doesn't mean they don't exist) where individual players can get this kind of attention. Now, granted, that sort of thing is not cheap, but it's like a really nice hotel. Not everyone can afford it, but if you can, you get fantastic service. Our game is slightly different in our charging structure from most of the commercial muds, in that we are not pay-to-play. All paying is voluntary. Pay as little or as much as you want (of course, rewards are commensurate with what you pay). Naturally, the best customer service in this situation will be going to the best customers, whereas non-customer players will get service that is not as good (though still pretty good I'd say, as we value them due to the fact that they make the game more entertaining for the big customers). The flip side is that people who are playing Achaea as essentially a free mud (ie they never become customers...we do have 1000 hour+ players who have never paid a dime) are less valuable, and the threshhold of punishment-worthy behavior is lower for them.

See what I mean?

By the way, as for the specific services he mentions, I've seen several free muds where players can buy exactly those things, but of course from in-game currency, not real money.

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (Shane @ May 06 2006,18:21) "The strategy: start a virtual world in a game of truly massive scale, so that millions can use it at any time. Make the game free. Allow people to use their credit cards to make transactions. Then wait for the society and markets to develop, and invite Earth retailers to open 3D stores in the virtual space. At that point, your Lara Croft lookalike avatar will be able to follow up her tough day of adventuring with a run into the nearby virtual JC Penney -- to buy her owner a new suit, for real money. The commercial potential of the new virtual worlds is impressive, and makes them well worth a first look. " The man Himself More similar to the Homestar business model. Basically, the virtual world turns into advertising/marketing for the actual product.

In other words, the VRML crash of the 90s. Making 3d virtual shopping malls is a terrible idea. There's a reason that Amazon, Ebay, etc use a web interface rather than a 3d interface. It's far, far more efficient to be able to click around than have to actually waste time traveling between 'links' (whether that link is a store or a product in a store, etc).

Randy Farmer (one of the pioneers in graphical virtual worlds back in the late 80s at Lucasarts) has something about that from the Roadmap to the Metaverse conference (http://metaverseroadmap.org/) this weekend: http://www.fudco.com/habitat/archives/000047.html

He reprints something he wrote way back in 1986 as the precursors to VRML and whatnot were starting to be tossed around:

Originally Posted by Now in 3-D! 3-D isn't an interface paradigm. 3-D isn't a world model. 3-D isn't the missing ingredient. 3-D isn't an inherently better representation for every purpose. 3-D is an attribute, like the color blue. Any time you read or hear about how great 3-D is and how it's going to change everything about computers and services, substitute the word blue for 3-D.

--matt