[Shao_Long]

Pk disussions forum would be cool.. to share, uh, whatever
I bet every pkiller knows what I mean

[visko]

W00t!

Amen.

I've been screaming about this for months.

Synozeer, we're all yakking about it. Bring it on!

-Visko

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by I've been screaming about this for months.

...and you keep getting the same explanation for why it's not necessary.

[Valg]

Disclaimer: I'm not opposed to PK in general.  The MUD I work at certainly isn't shy about it.

That said, I find PK logs and discussions from games I don't play pretty worthless.  You'll see a number of abilities and 'rules' that don't apply elsewhere, you don't know what the participants' options were, and it's hard to judge whether anyone involved is skilled, clever, or just mashing their MUD's local overpowered ability  Unlike roleplay logs and discussions, PK-oriented posts won't be very 'portable' from game to game.  "You should have anticipated that he'd have Iron Grip of Azazel and Bloodlust of the Seven Fiends up and given up on maledicting with Templar's Defense.  Instead, fight out of a Champion's Stand and try to sneak in a Light of Heaven opener...."  "Guhwha?"

I could see advertisements along the lines of an annotated PK log, however.  A lot of people look for that kind of depth in combat code, and some combat examples (with appropriate comments to guide the reader) would let some of us more fancy-schmancy types let their MUD's code flex its muscles for prospective players.  But tactical discussions and log analysis are hard enough between two MUDs using the same codebase, let alone two different ones.

[Terloch]

As I said with the last attempt to have this put in, I'm not even remotely for having it added, all it would be is a ****ing match between who thinks they are the best killer on one game and someone on another, and just a massive flame fest. There's no real need for a discussion board for pk on here in the slightest...

[Orion Elder]

Originally Posted by (Terloch @ May 18 2003,02:43) As I said with the last attempt to have this put in, I'm not even remotely for having it added, all it would be is a ****ing match between who thinks they are the best killer on one game and someone on another, and just a massive flame fest. There's no real need for a discussion board for pk on here in the slightest...

We already have a thread for that over in the Tavern of the Blue Hand... I named it 'FLAMES' or something like that.

Why not? I see some people are against it but it IS MUD related after all and there is a demand for it. You people aren't forced to watch it and if you really want, as the admin around here to remove that forum from the index page just like what happened to the joke forum. So why not then?

If they can get a decent amount of people backing them up making sure the new forum about PK will be used, then let them have one I say.

[visko]

****ing matches are one thing, and although I enjoy watching them, this is not PK. Just as I, a vehement pk-oriented player, took years to decide that RP-based MUDs and MUDders weren't a bunch of panzy chat-room teeny-boppers, all pkers aren't just a bunch of hack 'n slash beat-em-up cyber-jocks, if you will.

The idea of a pk forum is to have a place where administrators can concentrate on ideas for new combat systems, add-ins, innovations, and be able to ask/answer questions regarding how to implement these innovations with as little stress on the existing pbase as possible, how to balance them, ways to monitor new add-ins that aren't too intrusive to the players, etc.

Yes, all of this seems intuitive from the standpoint of an experienced coder, but the fact is we're not creating nifty chat rooms; we're creating MUDs. And just because combat systems seem boring to a lot of the most outspoken people who frequent this forum doesn't mean they aren't deeply interesting to people like myself, who probably do at least browse this site occasionally. I want a forum where I can post ideas regarding combat in general and have them be shot down constantly. Who knows; maybe someone will take interest in an idea I had, and turn it into something truly fantastic.

The point is, too many forums are obviously a bad thing. In the same manner, forums that are condusive to stupidity (where it isn't wanted) and lots of foul language/bad intentions are a Very Bad Thing. Solution? Make the forum, assign an administrator who volunteers for the position, and give it a trial period. If it looks like it gets a lot of foot traffic and the administrator seems to have things under control, leave it. If not, remove it, and there will be no more threads regarding it.

-Visko

[Tavish]

Originally Posted by I want a forum where I can post ideas regarding combat in general and have them be shot down constantly.

Depending on the type of things you want to talk about, advanced mud concepts, the coders forums, or even the Tavern are all able to handle these types of discussions.

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by Just as I, a vehement pk-oriented player, took years to decide that RP-based MUDs and MUDders weren't a bunch of panzy chat-room teeny-boppers, all pkers aren't just a bunch of hack 'n slash beat-em-up cyber-jocks, if you will.

I never claimed they were (for obvious reasons), but most PKers are extremely confrontational. Try flaming even a non-PK mud (or codebase) and you'll see all the players rushing to defend it. Now try putting all the PKers on the same forum, where they'll boast about how they're the best at X, how their mud is the best at Y, and then just watch all the PKers from other muds rushing to the defence.

Originally Posted by The idea of a pk forum is to have a place where administrators can concentrate on ideas for new combat systems, add-ins, innovations, and be able to ask/answer questions regarding how to implement these innovations with as little stress on the existing pbase as possible, how to balance them, ways to monitor new add-ins that aren't too intrusive to the players, etc.

And these all sound like things for the Advanced Mud Concepts forum.

Originally Posted by And just because combat systems seem boring to a lot of the most outspoken people who frequent this forum doesn't mean they aren't deeply interesting to people like myself, who probably do at least browse this site occasionally.

I don't think I've seen anyone claim that combat systems are boring. Indeed there have been some lengthy and interesting discussions about such systems in the past.

Originally Posted by I want a forum where I can post ideas regarding combat in general and have them be shot down constantly.

Have them be shot down, or have them not be shot down? If the former, then that's very likely what would happen on a PK forum. If the latter, well, that's what places like the Advanced Mud Concepts forum is for.

[Teelf]

I understand there is a stereotype about people who PK.  But I am suprised that so many of you are acting on your stereotypes.

A stereotype, by definition, is an oversimplified conclusion.  This means that there are people who don't fit the PK stereotype.  That there are  intelligent posters like visko and, I hope, myself that enjoy the challenge of PK yet aren't about making juvenile posts.  These are the kind of people who will be posting in the forums.  Those who fit the stereotype will have no motivation to post PK logs or "I am the king of my mud" type posts for exactly the reason that no one outside thier mud cares.  The PK forums would be for ideas that transcend individual muds.  And if some of those posts do happen to find there way in?  That's what a moderator is for.  Do the other moderators allow stupid and pointless posts in thier forums?  Then why would a well chosen PK moderator do that?

As far as dispersing the pk posts throughout the rest of the forums (how it is now), it doesn't work.  It doesn't promote interesting discussions.  They get lost amid the many other forums.  I don't have time to check every forum and every thread to see if it's a thread discussing PK issues.  

Additionally, the line of reasoning that posts could be disseminated throughout other forums could be applied to others.  The dealing with OOC cheating thread in the RP forums? That really could have gone in the administrators forums.  The good vs. evil thread?  That really could have gone in the Tavern forum.  In fact we could just have one forum and let everyone sort though and find posts that interest them.  But that's not the point.  The OP's wanted feedback specifically from the RP community.  Just as I would make a post and want feedback specifically from the PK admin community.  And dividing posts up into different topics is simply a manner of aiding the users of TMS.  

Overall, I am suprised that there is such objection to it.  I'm surprised that people who don't PK reply to this post at all.  I can't see how it negatively affects anyone.

[Eternal]

I'm all for it, provided posts in that forum don't appear in the Most Recent Posts window on the main page. Heated pk arguements tend to be little more than flames and nonsense, and the space is better used by serious discussion.

Lord Templar Hard Nose shakes his head sadly.

[Teelf]

Originally Posted by (Eternal @ May 21 2003,10<!--emo&[img http://www.topmudsites.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif[/img])]I'm all for it, provided posts in that forum don't appear in the Most Recent Posts window on the main page.  Heated pk arguements tend to be little more than flames and nonsense, and the space is better used by serious discussion.

Do you have evidence that a pk forums on TMS would be be "flames and nonsense?"  Or are you just assuming based on a stereotype?

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by Overall, I am suprised that there is such objection to it. I'm surprised that people who don't PK reply to this post at all.

I have been PKing on muds for over 9 years, and have been developing and running PK muds for over 8 years. I am the author of one of the most popular PK codebases around (there are currently 120 listed on TMC), have also written a pure-PK codebase from scratch, and I am currently developing a new PK mud (also from scratch). Of the 184,954 people who have taken Erwin Andreasen's Mud Personality Test, only 31 are listed as "famous", and of those, I am the only one rated as a "KILLER".

I am not basing my views on "oversimplified conclusions" - I am basing them on experience. There are indeed exceptions, but those are exactly that - exceptions. If Synozeer decides to add a PK forum, then fair enough, I won't object - indeed, I hope that I'll be proven wrong. But even as an old and much calmed-down PKer, I am still "confrontational", and will not sit back without giving my opinions first

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (Eternal @ May 21 2003,13:02) I'm all for it, provided posts in that forum don't appear in the Most Recent Posts window on the main page. Heated pk arguements tend to be little more than flames and nonsense, and the space is better used by serious discussion. Lord Templar Hard Nose shakes his head sadly.

Huh, that seems to summarize about half the "discussions' on most mud sites. I see just as many idiotic posts about rolepl aying as I do about PKing. in PKing it's "I'm the best Pker!" "No I am!" "Your mud has a crappy PK system. Being a PKer there doesn't count!" etc etc. In roleplaying it's "That's not real roleplaying!" "Yes it is!" "No it's not!" Blah blah.

--matt

[Mason]

"You have been attacked by $n"

Nohass on
slay $n


I win.

[Eternal]

Well, logos is right about one thing...

I do tend to overestimate the maturity of the Mudding audience in general.

Originally Posted by (KaVir @ May 21 2003,18:30) But even as an old and much calmed-down PKer, I am still "confrontational", and will not sit back without giving my opinions first ;)

I'm confrontational but I've never PK-ed back in the day when I still played a MUD. What does that make me? I feel like such an outcast around here! :(

[Teelf]

Originally Posted by (KaVir @ May 21 2003,15:30) Originally Posted by Overall, I am suprised that there is such objection to it.  I'm surprised that people who don't PK reply to this post at all. I have been PKing on muds for over 9 years, and have been developing and running PK muds for over 8 years.  I am the author of one of the most popular PK codebases around (there are currently 120 listed on TMC), have also written a pure-PK codebase from scratch, and I am currently developing a new PK mud (also from scratch).  Of the 184,954 people who have taken Erwin Andreasen's Mud Personality Test, only 31 are listed as "famous", and of those, I am the only one rated as a "KILLER".

Those two surprises I expressed were meant to be completely separate and I apologize for implying that anyone who replied negatively wasn't a PKer.

I am very much aware and respect your accomplishments.  I appreciate the fact you have authored two codebases and released them.  And GWII is already looking impressive.  

Originally Posted by I am not basing my views on "oversimplified conclusions" - I am basing them on experience.  There are indeed exceptions, but those are exactly that - exceptions.

I acknowledge that your experience far outweighs mine and that it may be me who is completely missing the point.  So explain to me why there can't be a PK forum for those who are exceptions to the PK stereotype? Why can't a moderator remove useless posts or freeze posts that begin to degenerate into flame wars?  If you were the moderator, what kinds of posts would you allow?

Originally Posted by If Synozeer decides to add a PK forum, then fair enough, I won't object - indeed, I hope that I'll be proven wrong.  But even as an old and much calmed-down PKer, I am still "confrontational", and will not sit back without giving my opinions first

I see nothing wrong with a confrontational style.  Healthy conflict often leads to creativity

I have a feeling Synozeer won't make a PK forum unless you agreed with it anyway.  I'm sure he respects your opinion more than us people he doesn't know (as it should be).  So take a chance!  You never know.  The PK community might surprise you.

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by So explain to me why there can't be a PK forum for those who are exceptions to the PK stereotype?

I've never said there can't be - indeed, Synozeer has already said in the past that he'll add a PK forum if there is demand for it. All I've said is that I don't think it would be a good idea.

Originally, Visko suggested that "People tend to ignore the "dark side" of the games out there, and I'd like to find a place where people who enjoy some decent pk/hack'n'slash can come to share ideas, thoughts, and insane amounts of flames", even requesting "Plz make pk forum unrestricted in language etc...we need our space to be able to express ourselves appropriately". He has presented his proposal in a much better way this time, but it's really just a sugar coating - his original posts were much more representative of how I feel such a forum will end up.

As has been pointed out both here and in other threads, the roleplaying forum has the benefit that roleplaying is codebase-independent. PK on the other hand is very codebase specific - and while a good PKer is able to adapt to different environments, general discussions are unlikely to be of much interest. This problem is even encountered on the GodWars mailing list, and that only covers GodWars and its derivatives.

Discussing the design of features such as new combat systems would dilute the Advanced Mud Concepts forum - which is IMO where such discussions belong (it's not just PK muds which use combat, after all). Discussing the actual implementation of such features would then dilute the Coding forum.

It would be comparible with discussing permadeath - you might talk about the impact in the roleplaying forum, but the actual design discussions would go into the Advanced Mud Concepts forum, just as the specifics on how to go about coding it would go into the Coding forum. The same would apply to (for example) dynamic room descriptions - you might discuss their pros and cons in the builders forum, but not the design or implementation. But what part of a combat system would you discuss in the PK forum?

And that leads us back to the original post, which stated "Pk disussions forum would be cool". And my opinion is still that no, I don't think it would - I just don't see a need for it. I wouldn't even say I was really against the idea, just that I don't think it would add any value to the forums. But it's not my call anyway, I'm just giving my 2 euro cents...

[Ike]

I feel we have too many forums as it is.

Any in depth discussion on the subject of player killing and/or how it should work within a mud could be discussed in the 'Advanced Mud Concepts' forum.

[Azhon]

How about collating all the fora here into one big forum with everything in the same place?

Most of them are rarely used anyhow.

[visko]

Kavir, I acknowledge and accept the statements you made regarding the dilution of various other forums we have currently.

However, as was stated earlier, the same argument could be applied to RP. Roleplaying isn't necessarily a specific, definable part of the MUD either; it (hopefully) is a ubiquitous concept that most of the MUD infrastructure either revolves around or caters to. To that end, why do we have a roleplaying forum? As was explained earlier, the "good vs. evil" thread could have been better placed in the Tavern, issues with recalcitrant players could have been better placed in the administration forum...

And yet there is a roleplaying forum, and it is used constantly for concepts regarding roleplay.

I'm not arguing that we need to eliminate the roleplaying forum to eliminate "dilution" of other forums; frankly, I don't want to have to see discussions regarding roleplay most of the time, and boxing them all into a forum I can ignore is convenient for me.

I'm also not (anymore) arguing that we necessarily need a pk forum. But just as I like the ability to conveniently NOT view anything going on in the RP forum, I would like the ability to quickly browse all threads regarding pk.

So a compromise: how about we have a flag we can set when creating a thread that designates it as RP or PK, and have a link (wherever people decide it should be placed) that can take me to my pk forum, where I can look at the newest comments of my peers in a part of MUDs I am most interested with.

And, looking back at the quote you took from an earlier post, forgive me. I think I was caught up in the excitement of the idea

-Visko

[Delerak]

I don't know if a PK forum really is needed. PK is not something you can really discuss, it's just PK simple as that, player killing, nothing special about it. There are things you can discuss about the PK and the way you do it, but that's not going to go very far, it would be pointless to have a forum for it, when it is so one dimensional and doesn't really go anywhere in the end. You won't have much to show for a 900 PK and 100 death record. That's just my opinion, I think roleplay outweighs PK 100 to 1. Because in the end you just killed a bunch of players, now Roleplay and PK is a very good mix and I happen to excell at that, although some would disagree that I am just a PKing twink at a RP mud. But you will always have people who say that about you if you roleplay evil characters who might not give you a second chance if you give them a reason to slit your throat.

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by Kavir, I acknowledge and accept the statements you made regarding the dilution of various other forums we have currently. However, as was stated earlier, the same argument could be applied to RP.  Roleplaying isn't necessarily a specific, definable part of the MUD either; it (hopefully) is a ubiquitous concept that most of the MUD infrastructure either revolves around or caters to.

Right - and you've hit the nail on the head.  "It isn't necessarily a definable part of the mud" - it is a generic concept, which can apply to any mud to a greater or lesser degree.  If you talk about concepts within a roleplaying environment, then they're going to be of interest to the players of many other roleplaying muds.

PK, however, is extremely codebase specific.  If you talk about your PK concepts, then it's unlikely to be of any relevance to anyone else (unless they play the same mud, or one very similar).

Originally Posted by So a compromise: how about we have a flag we can set when creating a thread that designates it as RP or PK, and have a link (wherever people decide it should be placed) that can take me to my pk forum, where I can look at the newest comments of my peers in a part of MUDs I am most interested with.

It's not me you need to compromise with - I do not run TMS.  I moderate a couple of the other forums, but even then only by Synozeer's approval.  If you desire a new forum, it's him you must ask - I am simply discussing my views on it, as have you and the other posters (including at least one moderator who was for the idea).

In all honesty, such a forum would be of great advantage to me personally, as the developer of a PK mud.  Indeed at one point in time I was even thinking of putting together a whole set of discussion forums aimed towards PK muds (eg "building within PK muds", "coding PK features", "designing PK features", etc).

But in the long run, I just don't think a generic PK forum would be of value here.  There are already forums for building, coding and design, and what's left is really just too specific to each individual mud to be of much value in discussion.

But as I said before, it's Synozeer you need to speak to (although I've no doubt he's reading this as well).

[Shao_Long]

Originally Posted by PK, however, is extremely codebase specific. If you talk about your PK concepts, then it's unlikely to be of any relevance to anyone else (unless they play the same mud, or one very similar).

Pkill isnt really all that codebase specific. There are a lot of things in pkill that are common to all muds, besides 95% of the mud belong to some of major codebase groups, hence share very big parts of the code.

Originally Posted by I don't know if a PK forum really is needed. PK is not something you can really discuss, it's just PK simple as that, player killing, nothing special about it.

no comment...

[visko]

Originally Posted by In all honesty, such a forum would be of great advantage to me personally, as the developer of a PK mud. Indeed at one point in time I was even thinking of putting together a whole set of discussion forums aimed towards PK muds (eg "building within PK muds", "coding PK features", "designing PK features", etc).

Exactly my point; all of these forums would be beneficial to administrators who are looking to develop or re-work combat systems, clan infrastructure, or any number of different parts of a MUD that deal with pk.

As you said, however, most if not all of these topics could and should be discussed in the other forums currently active on TMS. But as I said, being able to flag a thread as a pk topic, and then having a forum where I could browse the most recent pk-oriented topic, would be of great benefit to me personally; I think it would also end up helping many more MUD admins to focus specifically on pk- and combat-oriented discussions without having to stumble onto the latest and greatest discussion on MOBPROG development for a Wheel of Time series code base.

Originally Posted by There are things you can discuss about the PK and the way you do it, but that's not going to go very far, it would be pointless to have a forum for it, when it is so one dimensional and doesn't really go anywhere in the end.

............

Yes, we are all aware that you twink out an RP-based MUD. Thank you.

-Visko

[tresspassor]

The best way to have a new forum is to prove that there is a demand for it. Right now there is just a lot of talk about the possibility of demand.

Start a bunch of Pkill discussions in the forum that best fits currently, Possibly roleplaying? Or maybe Tavern.

In either case, if enough discussions are started and continued it would prove that there is a demand. And, to save spam, they would have to be moved to a new forum.

*shrug*

[Terloch]

In the how ever long we've had a coder's forum on here, there's been (as far as I can remember), not a single discussion on pk systems from the coder's point of view, so using that as a reason to have the forum doesn't fly.

I have a few questions for those who really want such a forum actually.  What exactly do you want it for?  What real purpose will it serve on here?

Taking my mud in example, sure a good pkiller could come from another mud, learn our system, and fare well, but there's no real point in discussing bits and pieces of it with others who don't play on Feudal, the system is more than likely different enough that it would be pointless.

My greatest fear in having something like a pk forum (and yes, I've stated this before), is that it would simply turn into a huge bickering flame-fest of who thinks who is the best pk stud on whatever the #### mud they might play on.  And honestly, we have no need for that here...

And for those who think I'm anti-pk, well, you couldn't be any further from the truth in that thought...

[Teelf]

Originally Posted by (Terloch @ May 31 2003,10:21) I have a few questions for those who really want such a forum actually.  What exactly do you want it for?  What real purpose will it serve on here?

Well, I know I have several topics I would like to see discussions about as I am in the eternally slow process of creating a PK mud.

Creating an environment so the best PKers rise to the top - This is basically my mission statement.  Most of the discussions would be for this purpose.

Classless - I use to be pro-class, but I'm slowly realizing that at least a classless system might support the goal better because it lets players invoke strategy from the very beginning beside a narrow choice of a class/race combo.  I'd like to hear thoughts on that.  

Advancement - levels or not?  How is it handled?  At somepoint is the only way to advance through PK only?  Should it be?

Identifying the best PKers - what systems do people use to quantify the ability of being a 'good' PKer?  This might be connected to a levelless mud topic.

Balance - this is huge issue of course.  How do you create and maintain balance?  How do you balance out a previously unbalanced situation without creating even more unbalance?  What methods of control to admin use?

Rewards for PK/Penalties for dying - Given the nature of the game, players will die fairly often.  What is too much? What is not enough?  Are the rewards mostly intrinsic to the player? Etc.

Separation - Team based or not?  How do you handle PK when everyone lives in the same town?  Are there written rules players must abide by, or is everything hard coded?  And how well does that work?

Vision in a roomless environment - 360 degree vision or first person?  What about trying to backstab someone?  If FP, what's to stop players from making an alias/trigger to look all around them everytime?  

Range weapons in a roomless environtment - How to balance it.

And yes, I know these could all 'fit' in another forum especially since we have a catch all forum.  But again, that's not the point.

Originally Posted by (Terloch @ May 31 2003,10:21) My greatest fear in having something like a pk forum (and yes, I've stated this before), is that it would simply turn into a huge bickering flame-fest of who thinks who is the best pk stud on whatever the #### mud they might play on.  And honestly, we have no need for that here...

I just don't understand this 'fear'?  That's what a moderator is for.