Bugs and Suggestions

hoop · 10-02-2002, 12:13 PM

I was just thinking it would be helpful if there was some spot on each Mud's "Info" page that tells us whether they are a PAY ONLY mud, or whether they are FREE.

And in addition to that, HOW MUCH it costs to play the mud.

It would be helpful for players that have NO Money to spend to know right away when they look at the mud info page that this mud requires you spending some cash. That way, they don't need to go any further.

And also, I guess, a searchable query to show FREE MUDS versus PAY MUDs.

Hoop

Dulan · 10-02-2002, 01:14 PM

Eh. Please add $ on at least the rankings page.

$ defining a MUD that "accepts donations in trade for stuff" or a MUD that is literally pay to play, that is.

-D

truthfulthomas · 10-02-2002, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by

I was just thinking it would be helpful if there was some spot on each Mud's "Info" page that tells us whether they are a PAY ONLY mud, or whether they are FREE.

This already exists. Go to the "Features" box. Most, if not all, pay to play MUDs list themselves as such here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by

And also, I guess, a searchable query to show FREE MUDS versus PAY MUDs.

You can do this if you use the site's advanced search feature.

Valg · 10-02-2002, 01:48 PM

I'd go so far as to suggest an icon on the top level page. I can't think of a faster turnoff for me than having to pay, or playing on a game where RL money buys IC incentives. There's too many high-quality free games out there to bother with that, IMHO.

In most cases, "pay for incentives" ends up being de facto pay-to-play, so I agree they should share the "$" symbol. Ditto for places that only let you play to a certain level, enter certain areas, etc. if you fork over cash.

I have no problem with donations, so long as they are optional and don't influence the game's workings.

Ike · 10-02-2002, 04:36 PM

NO! I strongly disagree. We do not segregate other games for any other factors such as server speed or location!

Terloch · 10-02-2002, 04:51 PM

Pay-to-play is a MUCH bigger factor than location or server speed, or anything else honestly for that matter, except maybe codebase. I'm all for something going on the ranking list as well as something easily readable in the mud info section.

And honestly, as for the top level page, I'm thinking that it will be a moot point soon anyways as pay muds, spinoffs of pay muds, and sister sites of pay muds will soon dominate the top 10, and probably top 20, and you can just go to pages 2-5 for the non-pay muds...

Sad huh?

10-02-2002, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by (Terloch @ Oct. 02 2002,1:51 pm)

And honestly, as for the top level page, I'm thinking that it will be a moot point soon anyways as pay muds, spinoffs of pay muds, and sister sites of pay muds will soon dominate the top 10, and probably top 20, and you can just go to pages 2-5 for the non-pay muds...

Ummm, is this intended to imply all pay-to-play games that make it into the top 20 are doing something inherently unethical to get there? Because the other way to read your post would be to think you're saying pay-to-play muds are inherently better, and thus have more players, and thus are getting more votes.

Both are wrong.

CSmith_Fan · 10-02-2002, 06:55 PM

Well since the subtopic of "pay to play" has come up in other threads how about this - Have 2 seperate Top 100 lists. One for those that for whatever reason (other than donations) you have to pay to play and the other for "free" MU*s, etc ?
As for the idea of segregation, bah! TMS has subtly done it since it's creation because if it never did it then there would be no "RP Enforced, Restricted PK. Extended Classes, etc" descriptions, so the post about segregating MUDs and future posts are really moot.
If there were 2 seperate lists, then MUDs like Fuedal Realms can be # 1 in the Free lists and whatever can be #1 in the PtP lists. That way there's MORE room for newer MUDs to get on the lists instead of seeing the TMS version of NASCAR on the top 10 (NASCAR = Same 10 rednecks always win, TMS - Same 10 PtP MUDs are on top). With two lists you can actually double the listings, double the (possible) membership (because to vote you have to be registered right? And if your MUD is here, you'd want your players to be registered so they can vote for your MUD right?). With a larger registration base, word would get out..people would come here first over TMC and who knows? Maybe a mention of TMS on Extended Play (on TechTV) or in The MUD Companion or other gaming rags.
Think about it...it could be beneficial.

Orion Elder · 10-02-2002, 06:57 PM

I think the point was that soon you won't need a $ symbol, you could simply jump to page two or three and get the same thing.

As for pay MUDs being better, in some ways they are. Your average MUDder likes to see big numbers of people when they log in. Lots of people, must mean a good game (heh, sure), right? Then you've got the fact that it is pay. That many people, and it's pay to play? They must be doing SOMETHING right. So, people have to pay, yet they still flock to this game in droves. This game must be the best on the planet. The cashew-brained thinking that brings us the above also brought us the 1.6 gallon toilet, that supposedly saves water, by making you flush enough to cause a drought over most of the western hemisphere.

But, that's just my opinion.

10-02-2002, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by (Orion Elder @ Oct. 02 2002,5:57 pm)

That many people, and it's pay to play? They must be doing SOMETHING right.

Advertisement.

Simple as that, the main reason most p2p muds are bigger is because they can afford full sized advertisements in magazines dealing with RPGs such as Inquest and whatnot. And, together with the initial large playerbase comes the advertisement by players trying to bring other people in as well.

If free (as in free beer) muds could put up huge advertisement without putting a triple mortage on the server, would they have more success as well? It's marketing people. The p2p muds simply have the ability of throwing vast ammounts of money at a problem until it get's solved or solves itself, including the aquisition of fresh and new players. Free muds are locked in a tight battle for every player they can get. How many absolutely NEW free mudders are there every month? And I mean people absolutely new to mudding, not old timers... Sadly few in the free (beer) community, but allot in the p2p community.

Back on track, I have to abstain about commenting about marking p2p muds. One side tells me to agree to differentiate said muds from the rest, but I also realize that this ranking is about MUDs. If it is a MU*/MOO/blah, then there should be no difference between p2p and free. Tough call... Really tough call.

SimuBubba · 10-02-2002, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by

Simple as that, the main reason most p2p muds are bigger is because they can afford full sized advertisements in magazines dealing with RPGs such as Inquest and whatnot.

I don't know about the others, but we don't advertise in any magazines and hardly on the web anymore at all.

I hadn't heard of Inquest before, but I'll definitely look into it.

10-02-2002, 09:39 PM

I'm suprised this topic wasn't generated as a poll, given the fact it has been brought up in other boards and lended itself to pages of discussion. Though I'm sure listing $ on front would win by a landslide.

My personal opinion (everyone's got 'em, no?) is that there is as little need to segreate pay sites on the main page by putting a $ as there is to segregate them by their codebase on the main page. The main pages list, the Info button defines.

American society being as spoonfed as it is, break the chain - if a MU* looks neat on the top 20 page DO SOME RESEARCH. Take an extra minute- click the Info button, check out the MUD's web site. Honestly, unless you're just into randomly trying MU*s I find it hard to understand why you'd look for a new home without doing some research. Pulling up a MU*s web site and seeing the button that says "Free Trial Membership" probably takes a shorter time to research than going through a properly offered Character Generation system and discovering once you've logged on.

Perhaps a separate field in the Mud Info area isn't a bad idea, listing a few options a MU* can define itself to choose from (see other threads for people's concepts on that). This way the player loses as much time when researching a MU* as if they checked out the Info and went "Yuck, they didn't describe themselves as a WoT-themed MUD on the front page!" I think Ing pointed out many p4p do this in Features any way, but if it will help soothe the rest of the battered and bruised community... why not?

Like I said, this is just an opinion. *shrugs* Opinions are like... y'know the phrase. Everyone's got 'em and no one wants to hear anyone else's. *wink*

TG_Hammar · 10-02-2002, 09:39 PM

I guess we all need to accept the fact that sooner, or later, Simutronics will have enough pay to play muds listed to dominate the top 20 all by themselves

I would like to see some sort of icon in the rankings displaying which muds are pay to play. I have absolutely nothing against pay to play muds, but I do have some issues with pay to play muds competing with free muds for the free advertising the rankings can bring.

10-02-2002, 09:42 PM

Hamm, you're fired.

*wink*

[Editted, added past this point]

Actually, bringing up the making profit off of free advertisement is a valid point. The frame shop I work at has a "professional artist" working there that often works on her own work for resale later. This does irk me.

While I'm still of my earlier opinion, I would think those promoting a p4p MU* would offer some compensation to a site offering "free" advertisements by perhaps purchasing a banner or something.

God bless commercialism.

Of course, that might not be a good idea because then we'd probably have debates on "Oh, look at the p4p's buying up all the advertisement space... blah blah blah" or people looking at donations as a form of seeking favoritism. Ah, there is no winning, is there?

*finishes up*

SimuBubba · 10-02-2002, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by

While I'm still of my earlier opinion, I would think those promoting a p4p MU* would offer some compensation to a site offering "free" advertisements by perhaps purchasing a banner or something.

God bless commercialism.

Of course, that might not be a good idea because then we'd probably have debates on "Oh, look at the p4p's buying up all the advertisement space... blah blah blah" or people looking at donations as a form of seeking favoritism. Ah, there is no winning, is there?

Well...for what it's worth, we're working on ads. I'm definitely of a mind that if were sucking up any of Synozeer's bandwidth, I want to contribute.

But yes, I agree, I'm a little worried of the fallout when our banners hit the rotation. :\

MelissaMeyer · 10-03-2002, 01:22 AM

For my part, I don't mind indicating that GS3 is a pay to play MUD.

There's some suggestion that Simutronics' products are doing a disservice to the free MUDs by being here. I'd like to point out that since we joined this site, most of our users who have been voting have also taken the opportunity to investigate your games.

This site is about sharing information about the available text-based games for the sake of the community of people interested in such. We're more than willing to let our thousands of users check out your games. Surely you can see the advantages of such an arrangement.

Melissa Meyer
GemStone III

TG_Hammar · 10-03-2002, 01:32 AM

Thanks Melissa. I know that I had never thought of reverse advertising, and I appreciate your bringing it to our attention.

I would like to clarify that I am in no way bashing Simutronics and their family of pay to play muds that are sweeping the polls, but stating (rather jokingly) that ranks 1-20 will be mostly Simutronics games, then 21+ will be everybody else. In fact if I _was_ bashing, then very soon TG_Nek would have my hide for a welcome mat.

*shouts loudly "tarmun guydin rooools!" and then falls into a drunken stupor*

Niktika · 10-03-2002, 02:05 AM

I also think that there is really no need to put up dollar signs next to a MUD that is listed on this site. This is an open site to take a look at what people think is the best MUD in their own eyes. The cost, or lack of cost, has no real effect on what peoples opinion is on the game.

If you are not willing to pay you can very easily just check out the next MUD listed. And its not as if the pay to play MUDs are tricking people into thinking it's a free game. Its very obvious that you have to pay when visiting the game's site or even by reading the information on each individual MUD provided here.

Yes, people are beginning to see that the p2p MUDs do have more people. That has nothing at all do to with the price of the MUD itself. If you don't think the game is worth the money, you probably wouldn't pay for it at all. Looking at it from that perspective, the people who have been paying p2p MUDs that do not think it's worth the cost are given direct links to this site from the voting links located on the pages for the games themselves. That in the end could mean free MUDs end up getting more players from those people who have decided it's not worth it to pay for what brings them enjoyment or because they simply cannot afford it any longer.

~Nik

Jazuela · 10-03-2002, 10:26 AM

There's only one thing I take issue with regarding these high-volume games (specifically Simutronics).

There's DragonRealms
there's DragonRealms: The Fallen
and there's DragonRealms Platinum, which is independant of the original.

Then there's GemstoneIII and GemstoneIII Platinum, with The Fallen supposedly on its way eventually.

That's two games taking up to 6 different slots on the top list.

I consider that rather unfair, because Simu knows that perhaps one other company's game can possibly compete with Simu in playerbase.

I think Simu should place DragonRealms as a single offering on TMS, and GemStoneIII as a single offering on TMS, and the "info" button can explain the different versions of each. The same goes for Inferno, which has just recently split into Inferno: Classic and Inferno:Firestorm.

MelissaMeyer · 10-03-2002, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by (Jazuela @ Oct. 03 2002,09:26 am)

There's only one thing I take issue with regarding these high-volume games (specifically Simutronics).

There's DragonRealms
there's DragonRealms: The Fallen
and there's DragonRealms Platinum, which is independant of the original.

Then there's GemstoneIII and GemstoneIII Platinum, with The Fallen supposedly on its way eventually.

That's two games taking up to 6 different slots on the top list.

I consider that rather unfair, because Simu knows that perhaps one other company's game can possibly compete with Simu in playerbase.

I think Simu should place DragonRealms as a single offering on TMS, and GemStoneIII as a single offering on TMS, and the "info" button can explain the different versions of each. The same goes for Inferno, which has just recently split into Inferno: Classic and Inferno:Firestorm.

>GemStoneIII as a single offering on TMS<

GemStone is a single offering.

Melissa

10-03-2002, 12:52 PM

Hearty thanks. :)

the_logos · 10-03-2002, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by (Jazuela @ Oct. 03 2002,09:26 am)

I think Simu should place DragonRealms as a single offering on TMS, and GemStoneIII as a single offering on TMS, and the "info" button can explain the different versions of each. The same goes for Inferno, which has just recently split into Inferno: Classic and Inferno:Firestorm.

If they're different games, they're different games. If you want to make Simutronics compile their different games into a single listing, I'd suggest that all MUDs sharing the same codebase be forced into a single listing too. Sounds a bit ridiculous when put like that doesn't it?

--matt

hoop · 10-04-2002, 04:39 PM

Ok, some interesting topics here.

When I began this post, it was as a suggestion to add the $ (dollar sign) or some other sign on the TopMuds listing pages so I would know (before I had to click 2 or 3 times) whether I had to PAY or not.

To me: If I am a FREE mudder, it is a waste of my time to delve any deeper investigating any game - when the only way I can ever play it would be to shell out money from my pocket.

Sure, I was very curious : who were these NEW mu*s added to TopMudSites that all of a sudden have 5000 votes in the 14 day time period? I was flabbergasted to think that a mu* might have that many - in the past 8 months, I'd never seen ANYONE get that high! I was totally amazed...

And then distraught when I found out that they were pay to play. Why? I don't know, I guess I still felt the way when I first started mudding back in 1991. I felt that the game was built by players, for players, and I didn't see the need to pay.

But really, I just wanted some way to see : DO I have to pay to play this mud? Some EASY way, as if putting a $ on the very beginning of the TopMudSites page, next to their name. Would that really harm them? Would that stop the 1500+ players that these muds have from going to them?

Doubtful. I would think it wouldn't stop or hurt those muds at all.

I have nothing against pay for play muds - I think they're fine, and fantastic. Heck, they have some awesome web sites! And I guess its not about "competing" with them per se, but like someone else said, won't they be dominating the Top 20 very soon - if they haven't been already?

Maybe even have some kind of search for just free muds - so those who are in high school, or college, or even out in the real world - with little enough money for basic CABLE each month - can search for a meangingful, FREE experience online?

In my opinion, these muds have more players because they are probably better, bigger, more thought out than free muds. (no offense meant to anyone, so don't flame me on that! )

Why though? Well, if someone PAID me to help build areas on a mud, or paid me to help code a mud, or paid me to help build a website - wouldn't you spend more time, effort, energy working on that? On top of the advertising and other bonuses that come from having a source of income - better hardware, quicker access, 24/7 help lines, an answer desk - a way to pay with credit card?

On the Free Muds - the workers and administrators are volunteer. They still have a life - have to put food on the table, goto school or pay the bills. If my 40 hour a week job was administrating a mud - wow - that would be a lot of fun - but also, I would do it a lot better than the 5 hours a week I spend doing stuff now, trying to "work it in" with my real job.

Bah, maybe I'm off my original topic. All I wanted was to do a search for the TOP Muds in the FREE Category ONLY. Is that too much to ask?

Hoop

Seraphina · 10-06-2002, 03:28 AM

It's not quite what you think it is at pay 2 play muds. In the one I play most of the staff is still volunteer. What the money does pay for is onsite staff and better hardware and they do pay some gamemasters.

I agree with putting in a dollar sign because it is pertinent information. Some people might not want to pay, but others may want to check it out to see what they are like. From what I have been reading they are likely to have superior experience and combat systems, better systems in general. But, they also have a far larger population and many people might not enjoy that. The scroll can be tremendous in a busy room especially if you are not used to it.

For the most part they don't offer the intimacy that smaller muds do. You make a circle of friends but there is no way you are ever going to know every player or character.

I do think it is more important than things like server speed.

Achaea doesn't mention they are a pay for advancement mud on the info page nor even anywhere I could find on it's web page. I even clicked on play and went into the character manager without any notification that there was anything to buy. I thought I read in the posts some where that it is P2P?

Threshold mentions it in info. Armageddon looks free. The Eternal City doesn't mention payment on the info page or on the first web page you hit. There is no mention until you click create an account at which point they offer a free thirty day trial.

At the very least I would like to see a specific slot on the info page where they must indicate whether or not there is any charge and if so a short description of it. (monthy or for access to wealth, training, experience, etc.)

I don't see any downside to this.

the_logos · 10-06-2002, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by (Seraphina @ Oct. 06 2002,02:28 am)

I agree with putting in a dollar sign because it is pertinent information. Some people might not want to pay, but others may want to check it out to see what they are like. From what I have been reading they are likely to have superior experience and combat systems, better systems in general. But, they also have a far larger population and many people might not enjoy that.

Well, there's no question it's pertinent information, but I think the question is why single out that piece of information? It's no more important than, say, custom vs. codebase. I, for instance, want to always know, right away, allows PK or not. Pay or free is unimportant to me. Others might feel that the most important piece of info is fully custom vs. codebase. There's any number of distinctions you can draw, and any is as valid as the next.

--matt

GenmaC · 10-06-2002, 06:07 AM

To me, I'd say listing server speed would make more difference as to where I would want to play.

Do I ever want to play a MUD hosted of some guy's cable modem? No.

And it really does only take one or two clicks to find out whether a mud is p2p or not - if you can't afford 2 clicks, you need to a) get a better modem, or b) start aquiring a more realistic work ethic.

Seraphina · 10-06-2002, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by

It's no more important than, say, custom vs. codebase. I, for instance, want to always know, right away, allows PK or not.

Interestingly I have noticed all the games seem very forthright about those details under info and many in their descriptions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by

And it really does only take one or two clicks to find out whether a mud is p2p or not - if you can't afford 2 clicks, you need to a) get a better modem, or b) start aquiring a more realistic work ethic.

Excuse me? I play a P2P game. They make it obvious that it is a P2P game right up front by making it clear they offer a 30 day free trial. It was not two clicks to find out if The Eternal City was P2P. I went to info and to the game site and read considerable background information on classes etc. without finding out it was P2P.

I saw no indication at all at Achaea's site that they are P2P so now I am not sure if they are or not. Aha! *Third* visit to the site I finally found the $ information under "credits" which looked like where they would list the creators of the games to me.

"A 'credit' is an Achaean currency, which you may purchase on this page. Once your character has his or her credits, he or she may spend them on whatever is available to spend credits on, such as lessons for skills, artifacts, pets, houses, and so on." Beneath is a listing of various foods from a 20$ salad to offerings for close to 300$."

You mention that there are other significant facts about games and that is very true however that information seems very easy to find. I have to wonder why some P2P games keep this information buried in the web sites to the point where someone could actually create a character without realizing the game is P2P.

As a consumer when I am considering a product I want to know how much it costs up front. I do not want to waste time finding out about the product before knowing whether or not there is a charge for it. There may be people out there for whom it makes no difference if something is free, 10$ a month, or 100$ a month, but I would guess they are few and far between.

From the posts I have read I gather that the entrance to this site of P2P mud offerings is fairly new. It's good for the site as P2P's generally have larger player bases so generate more traffic per game. On the other hand, a large part of the draw to the players is an opportunity to see what else is out there. If there is no way to figure out which games are free and which charge it makes the site a lot less useful to me.

My experience of checking out other muds so far leaves me cold. I am not going to spend hours clicking on muds and searching their web pages to figure out if they are pay or free. It has left me suspicious of all the muds listed because some of the pay muds put the information in an obscure place or only divulge that there is a charge once you have decided to play.

It seems that prior to the entry of P2P muds the default was that the muds are free to play. Some of the P2P muds are being upfront either in the short description on the ratings page or in the features area of info. Others are leaving the information obscure. I just clicked on Shattered Kingdoms and don't see any reference to charging, but I am suspicious anyway because of the P2P sites that are not being upfront about charging. Is that fair to Shattered Kingdoms? Depends on if they too charge.

This is not fair to the free muds or to the players using the site as a reference. Another solution would be for the free muds to all change their descriptions to specify FREE. As free seems to have been the default it doesn't see right to me that the entry of P2P muds on the list should force everyone else to change their descriptions because of a few muds that prefer to leave that information obscure.

How popular do you think this site will remain if players have to wade through all kinds of information on mud sites to discover whether or not they have to pay?

Why would muds that charge be resistant to including that information in their description?

Azhon · 10-06-2002, 02:06 PM

I personally would never play a pay mud, but to each his own.

However, I don't mind having pay mud listed as long as it is blatant that they are pay/donation/what-ever-they-try-to-call-it.

It just is annoying to get in then find out half an hour later that they want you to pay them money.

I support having a simple icon on whether it is pay or not so I can quickly go past it without bothering to look at it.

Just my opinion

the_logos · 10-06-2002, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by (Seraphina @ Oct. 06 2002,12:57 pm)

I saw no indication at all at Achaea's site that they are P2P so now I am not sure if they are or not. Aha! *Third* visit to the site I finally found the $ information under "credits" which looked like where they would list the creators of the games to me.

Well, you didn't see an indication, because Achaea isn't P2P. We are a commercial game, but playing is free, forever. If you never want to give us a dime, that's entirely your business. We've got major players who have spent thousands of hours playing, have maxxed out their skills, achieved ultra-high levels, and never spent a dime.

So, the reason Achaea doesn't mention it's pay-to-play is because it isn't. We employ that is basically a donations system that gets you rewards for donating, though those rewards give you generally only incremental advantages. Can't purchase xp, only, say, an artifact that lets you get 10% more xp when you do a quest or kill a monster. Can't purchase overwhelming weapons, only weapons that might be 15% better than the statistical average weapon forged by a player.

I'd have no problem with being classified as "commercial" but I would heavily resist being classified as Pay-to-Play, because simply, we aren't. We made the decision years ago that we wanted people to be able to play Achaea for free, because we didn't want to exclude people who can only spend $10 a year, or even nothing at all, becuase though they might not contribute money, they contribute anyway by just participating in the social structures in the game, and thus providing content for other players.

--matt

Seraphina · 10-06-2002, 02:35 PM

Thank you for that response Matt. I appreciate your explanation of the distinction between having to pay and having the option of paying as well as the distinction between offering experience verses potencially increased experience through items that offer a bonus during game play.

An indication that a game is commercial would be fine by me. It seems different commercial games each have their own pricing set up which the potential player could then explore if they remain interested.

Mud Info : Add $ or no $ ? - Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
New Daedalus Project info	the_logos	MUD Administration	0	10-20-2005 02:41 PM
$ Info, le Poll	TG_Nek	Bugs and Suggestions	80	10-20-2002 07:35 PM
MUD-Con I Info	Orion Elder	MUD Announcements	1	10-15-2002 04:14 AM
The people or the info ?	Shao_Long	Tavern of the Blue Hand	7	05-14-2002 01:57 PM

10-02-2002, 12:13 PM	#1
hoop New Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 16	I was just thinking it would be helpful if there was some spot on each Mud's "Info" page that tells us whether they are a PAY ONLY mud, or whether they are FREE. And in addition to that, HOW MUCH it costs to play the mud. It would be helpful for players that have NO Money to spend to know right away when they look at the mud info page that this mud requires you spending some cash. That way, they don't need to go any further. And also, I guess, a searchable query to show FREE MUDS versus PAY MUDs. Hoop

10-02-2002, 01:14 PM	#2
Dulan Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 354	Eh. Please add $ on at least the rankings page. $ defining a MUD that "accepts donations in trade for stuff" or a MUD that is literally pay to play, that is. -D

10-02-2002, 01:48 PM	#4
Valg Moderator Join Date: Apr 2002 Home MUD: Carrion Fields Posts: 643	I'd go so far as to suggest an icon on the top level page. I can't think of a faster turnoff for me than having to pay, or playing on a game where RL money buys IC incentives. There's too many high-quality free games out there to bother with that, IMHO. In most cases, "pay for incentives" ends up being de facto pay-to-play, so I agree they should share the "$" symbol. Ditto for places that only let you play to a certain level, enter certain areas, etc. if you fork over cash. I have no problem with donations, so long as they are optional and don't influence the game's workings.

10-02-2002, 04:36 PM	#5
Ike Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Georgia Posts: 62	NO! I strongly disagree. We do not segregate other games for any other factors such as server speed or location!

10-02-2002, 04:51 PM	#6
Terloch Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Chicago, Illinois Posts: 152	Pay-to-play is a MUCH bigger factor than location or server speed, or anything else honestly for that matter, except maybe codebase. I'm all for something going on the ranking list as well as something easily readable in the mud info section. And honestly, as for the top level page, I'm thinking that it will be a moot point soon anyways as pay muds, spinoffs of pay muds, and sister sites of pay muds will soon dominate the top 10, and probably top 20, and you can just go to pages 2-5 for the non-pay muds... Sad huh?

10-02-2002, 06:55 PM	#8
CSmith_Fan Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 90	Well since the subtopic of "pay to play" has come up in other threads how about this - Have 2 seperate Top 100 lists. One for those that for whatever reason (other than donations) you have to pay to play and the other for "free" MU*s, etc ? As for the idea of segregation, bah! TMS has subtly done it since it's creation because if it never did it then there would be no "RP Enforced, Restricted PK. Extended Classes, etc" descriptions, so the post about segregating MUDs and future posts are really moot. If there were 2 seperate lists, then MUDs like Fuedal Realms can be # 1 in the Free lists and whatever can be #1 in the PtP lists. That way there's MORE room for newer MUDs to get on the lists instead of seeing the TMS version of NASCAR on the top 10 (NASCAR = Same 10 rednecks always win, TMS - Same 10 PtP MUDs are on top). With two lists you can actually double the listings, double the (possible) membership (because to vote you have to be registered right? And if your MUD is here, you'd want your players to be registered so they can vote for your MUD right?). With a larger registration base, word would get out..people would come here first over TMC and who knows? Maybe a mention of TMS on Extended Play (on TechTV) or in The MUD Companion or other gaming rags. Think about it...it could be beneficial.

10-02-2002, 06:57 PM	#9
Orion Elder Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 346	I think the point was that soon you won't need a $ symbol, you could simply jump to page two or three and get the same thing. As for pay MUDs being better, in some ways they are. Your average MUDder likes to see big numbers of people when they log in. Lots of people, must mean a good game (heh, sure), right? Then you've got the fact that it is pay. That many people, and it's pay to play? They must be doing SOMETHING right. So, people have to pay, yet they still flock to this game in droves. This game must be the best on the planet. The cashew-brained thinking that brings us the above also brought us the 1.6 gallon toilet, that supposedly saves water, by making you flush enough to cause a drought over most of the western hemisphere. But, that's just my opinion.

10-02-2002, 09:39 PM	#12
TG_Nek Posts: n/a	I'm suprised this topic wasn't generated as a poll, given the fact it has been brought up in other boards and lended itself to pages of discussion. Though I'm sure listing $ on front would win by a landslide. My personal opinion (everyone's got 'em, no?) is that there is as little need to segreate pay sites on the main page by putting a $ as there is to segregate them by their codebase on the main page. The main pages list, the Info button defines. American society being as spoonfed as it is, break the chain - if a MU* looks neat on the top 20 page DO SOME RESEARCH. Take an extra minute- click the Info button, check out the MUD's web site. Honestly, unless you're just into randomly trying MUs I find it hard to understand why you'd look for a new home without doing some research. Pulling up a MUs web site and seeing the button that says "Free Trial Membership" probably takes a shorter time to research than going through a properly offered Character Generation system and discovering once you've logged on. Perhaps a separate field in the Mud Info area isn't a bad idea, listing a few options a MU* can define itself to choose from (see other threads for people's concepts on that). This way the player loses as much time when researching a MU* as if they checked out the Info and went "Yuck, they didn't describe themselves as a WoT-themed MUD on the front page!" I think Ing pointed out many p4p do this in Features any way, but if it will help soothe the rest of the battered and bruised community... why not? Like I said, this is just an opinion. shrugs Opinions are like... y'know the phrase. Everyone's got 'em and no one wants to hear anyone else's. wink

10-02-2002, 09:39 PM	#13
TG_Hammar Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Plymouth, Indiana USA Posts: 30	I guess we all need to accept the fact that sooner, or later, Simutronics will have enough pay to play muds listed to dominate the top 20 all by themselves I would like to see some sort of icon in the rankings displaying which muds are pay to play. I have absolutely nothing against pay to play muds, but I do have some issues with pay to play muds competing with free muds for the free advertising the rankings can bring.

10-02-2002, 09:42 PM	#14
TG_Nek Posts: n/a	Hamm, you're fired. wink [Editted, added past this point] Actually, bringing up the making profit off of free advertisement is a valid point. The frame shop I work at has a "professional artist" working there that often works on her own work for resale later. This does irk me. While I'm still of my earlier opinion, I would think those promoting a p4p MU* would offer some compensation to a site offering "free" advertisements by perhaps purchasing a banner or something. God bless commercialism. Of course, that might not be a good idea because then we'd probably have debates on "Oh, look at the p4p's buying up all the advertisement space... blah blah blah" or people looking at donations as a form of seeking favoritism. Ah, there is no winning, is there? finishes up

10-03-2002, 01:22 AM	#16
MelissaMeyer New Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 16	For my part, I don't mind indicating that GS3 is a pay to play MUD. There's some suggestion that Simutronics' products are doing a disservice to the free MUDs by being here. I'd like to point out that since we joined this site, most of our users who have been voting have also taken the opportunity to investigate your games. This site is about sharing information about the available text-based games for the sake of the community of people interested in such. We're more than willing to let our thousands of users check out your games. Surely you can see the advantages of such an arrangement. Melissa Meyer GemStone III

10-03-2002, 01:32 AM	#17
TG_Hammar Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Plymouth, Indiana USA Posts: 30	Thanks Melissa. I know that I had never thought of reverse advertising, and I appreciate your bringing it to our attention. I would like to clarify that I am in no way bashing Simutronics and their family of pay to play muds that are sweeping the polls, but stating (rather jokingly) that ranks 1-20 will be mostly Simutronics games, then 21+ will be everybody else. In fact if I _was_ bashing, then very soon TG_Nek would have my hide for a welcome mat. shouts loudly "tarmun guydin rooools!" and then falls into a drunken stupor

10-03-2002, 02:05 AM	#18
Niktika New Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 2	I also think that there is really no need to put up dollar signs next to a MUD that is listed on this site. This is an open site to take a look at what people think is the best MUD in their own eyes. The cost, or lack of cost, has no real effect on what peoples opinion is on the game. If you are not willing to pay you can very easily just check out the next MUD listed. And its not as if the pay to play MUDs are tricking people into thinking it's a free game. Its very obvious that you have to pay when visiting the game's site or even by reading the information on each individual MUD provided here. Yes, people are beginning to see that the p2p MUDs do have more people. That has nothing at all do to with the price of the MUD itself. If you don't think the game is worth the money, you probably wouldn't pay for it at all. Looking at it from that perspective, the people who have been paying p2p MUDs that do not think it's worth the cost are given direct links to this site from the voting links located on the pages for the games themselves. That in the end could mean free MUDs end up getting more players from those people who have decided it's not worth it to pay for what brings them enjoyment or because they simply cannot afford it any longer. ~Nik

10-03-2002, 10:26 AM	#19
Jazuela Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: New England Posts: 706	There's only one thing I take issue with regarding these high-volume games (specifically Simutronics). There's DragonRealms there's DragonRealms: The Fallen and there's DragonRealms Platinum, which is independant of the original. Then there's GemstoneIII and GemstoneIII Platinum, with The Fallen supposedly on its way eventually. That's two games taking up to 6 different slots on the top list. I consider that rather unfair, because Simu knows that perhaps one other company's game can possibly compete with Simu in playerbase. I think Simu should place DragonRealms as a single offering on TMS, and GemStoneIII as a single offering on TMS, and the "info" button can explain the different versions of each. The same goes for Inferno, which has just recently split into Inferno: Classic and Inferno:Firestorm.

10-04-2002, 04:39 PM	#23
hoop New Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 16	Ok, some interesting topics here. When I began this post, it was as a suggestion to add the $ (dollar sign) or some other sign on the TopMuds listing pages so I would know (before I had to click 2 or 3 times) whether I had to PAY or not. To me: If I am a FREE mudder, it is a waste of my time to delve any deeper investigating any game - when the only way I can ever play it would be to shell out money from my pocket. Sure, I was very curious : who were these NEW mus added to TopMudSites that all of a sudden have 5000 votes in the 14 day time period? I was flabbergasted to think that a mu might have that many - in the past 8 months, I'd never seen ANYONE get that high! I was totally amazed... And then distraught when I found out that they were pay to play. Why? I don't know, I guess I still felt the way when I first started mudding back in 1991. I felt that the game was built by players, for players, and I didn't see the need to pay. But really, I just wanted some way to see : DO I have to pay to play this mud? Some EASY way, as if putting a $ on the very beginning of the TopMudSites page, next to their name. Would that really harm them? Would that stop the 1500+ players that these muds have from going to them? Doubtful. I would think it wouldn't stop or hurt those muds at all. I have nothing against pay for play muds - I think they're fine, and fantastic. Heck, they have some awesome web sites! And I guess its not about "competing" with them per se, but like someone else said, won't they be dominating the Top 20 very soon - if they haven't been already? Maybe even have some kind of search for just free muds - so those who are in high school, or college, or even out in the real world - with little enough money for basic CABLE each month - can search for a meangingful, FREE experience online? In my opinion, these muds have more players because they are probably better, bigger, more thought out than free muds. (no offense meant to anyone, so don't flame me on that! ) Why though? Well, if someone PAID me to help build areas on a mud, or paid me to help code a mud, or paid me to help build a website - wouldn't you spend more time, effort, energy working on that? On top of the advertising and other bonuses that come from having a source of income - better hardware, quicker access, 24/7 help lines, an answer desk - a way to pay with credit card? On the Free Muds - the workers and administrators are volunteer. They still have a life - have to put food on the table, goto school or pay the bills. If my 40 hour a week job was administrating a mud - wow - that would be a lot of fun - but also, I would do it a lot better than the 5 hours a week I spend doing stuff now, trying to "work it in" with my real job. Bah, maybe I'm off my original topic. All I wanted was to do a search for the TOP Muds in the FREE Category ONLY. Is that too much to ask? Hoop

10-06-2002, 03:28 AM	#24
Seraphina Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 49	It's not quite what you think it is at pay 2 play muds. In the one I play most of the staff is still volunteer. What the money does pay for is onsite staff and better hardware and they do pay some gamemasters. I agree with putting in a dollar sign because it is pertinent information. Some people might not want to pay, but others may want to check it out to see what they are like. From what I have been reading they are likely to have superior experience and combat systems, better systems in general. But, they also have a far larger population and many people might not enjoy that. The scroll can be tremendous in a busy room especially if you are not used to it. For the most part they don't offer the intimacy that smaller muds do. You make a circle of friends but there is no way you are ever going to know every player or character. I do think it is more important than things like server speed. Achaea doesn't mention they are a pay for advancement mud on the info page nor even anywhere I could find on it's web page. I even clicked on play and went into the character manager without any notification that there was anything to buy. I thought I read in the posts some where that it is P2P? Threshold mentions it in info. Armageddon looks free. The Eternal City doesn't mention payment on the info page or on the first web page you hit. There is no mention until you click create an account at which point they offer a free thirty day trial. At the very least I would like to see a specific slot on the info page where they must indicate whether or not there is any charge and if so a short description of it. (monthy or for access to wealth, training, experience, etc.) I don't see any downside to this.

10-06-2002, 06:07 AM	#26
GenmaC Member Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 68	To me, I'd say listing server speed would make more difference as to where I would want to play. Do I ever want to play a MUD hosted of some guy's cable modem? No. And it really does only take one or two clicks to find out whether a mud is p2p or not - if you can't afford 2 clicks, you need to a) get a better modem, or b) start aquiring a more realistic work ethic.

10-06-2002, 02:06 PM	#28
Azhon Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 50	I personally would never play a pay mud, but to each his own. However, I don't mind having pay mud listed as long as it is blatant that they are pay/donation/what-ever-they-try-to-call-it. It just is annoying to get in then find out half an hour later that they want you to pay them money. I support having a simple icon on whether it is pay or not so I can quickly go past it without bothering to look at it. Just my opinion

10-06-2002, 02:35 PM	#30
Seraphina Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 49	Thank you for that response Matt. I appreciate your explanation of the distinction between having to pay and having the option of paying as well as the distinction between offering experience verses potencially increased experience through items that offer a bonus during game play. An indication that a game is commercial would be fine by me. It seems different commercial games each have their own pricing set up which the potential player could then explore if they remain interested.

Bugs and Suggestions

Mud Info : Add $ or no $ ?