[Ashon]

Originally Posted by I have always known that The Mud Companion costs more to make that my subscription covered. I could have received free copies because I had an article in every issue. I didn't though, because I felt bad because I knew that Thoric sunk a very large amount of money into the magazine to get it started. I also very strongly suspected that he never made that money back. I never realized the full extent of his losses. To be honest, I never asked, because I didn't really want to know.

While I applaud the move to try and make a published magazine, I'm glad at this point that I did not subscribe to it. I thought about, read the website, but never saw any snippits of articles that made me want to purchase the subscription. But on the other hand what Thoric tried to do was make money on a hobby. This is not a bad thing. But he did it without a solid business plan. One in which they could see the magazine grow. Or when shown to someone else, they could see it grow.

The main problem with the business plan was that he tried to base it on existing magazines, where the advertisers carried most of the cost. The following is an assumption and I may be wrong, please let me know if it is. The majority of the advertisers were planned to be muds, and mud related resource sites, mud hosts, and possibly MMORPGS. The fault with this strategy is the following: Most muds are not P2P, and cannot afford advertising, most resource sites, barely make enough to keep the server running, mud hosts are probably the most profitable, but the magazine is targetted at administrators that already have servers, and MMORPGS have marketing departments, that probably aren't aware of the magazine.

If I were to subscribe to the magazine, I would be happy to pay $20US for a yearly subscription. As long as the product was relevant to me. I stopped my Subscription to Dragon, because it focused too much on FR, and not world development.

Originally Posted by Everyone seems to want things for free, but they aren't willing to help in any way. All of the mud magazines are dying because people want to read them, but don't want to contribute to them. I can count on one hand the number of unsolicated articles that I received for The Art of Building in its five years of existance. That works out to one article per year. I never received any unsoliciated articles for the Builder's Bazaar section of The Mud Journal. I bet Mish is still having the same problem. I would not be surprised if Imaginary Realities died for similar reasons.

I wrote 8 Unsolicited articles for IR. Yes a couple of them were a day or two late. Behind Selina Kelley (An Editor) I was the most published writer there. I think the reason the IR died was because lack of time on the part of the Editors. And not having as many articles as they really wanted. I give back to the community the way I feel is best for me. I guide my own development, and talk to people who talk to me. The last Mudwide community thing I did was fill out an interview for Orion for his site. I am prolific enough to be found, and hopefully respected enough, all someone has to do is ask. Other then that I sit back, read, reply to comments, and hack away at my own code.

Can you really ask for anything else from a community of hobbyist on the internet?

[Neranz Laverani]

Originally Posted by I wrote 8 Unsolicited articles for IR. Yes a couple of them were a day or two late. Behind Selina Kelley (An Editor) I was the most published writer there. I think the reason the IR died was because lack of time on the part of the Editors. And not having as many articles as they really wanted. I give back to the community the way I feel is best for me. I guide my own development, and talk to people who talk to me. The last Mudwide community thing I did was fill out an interview for Orion for his site. I am prolific enough to be found, and hopefully respected enough, all someone has to do is ask. Other then that I sit back, read, reply to comments, and hack away at my own code. Can you really ask for anything else from a community of hobbyist on the internet?

What I am asking for is for people who do nothing but criticize to contribute instead, to do something constructive with their energy. There is nothing wrong with quietly sitting back coding and stepping up when asked. That is constructive not destructive.

If we want good global resources, we can only have them by contributing. They don't just happen on their own.

[Thoric]

Originally Posted by Nearly all publications have to endure being in the red for awhile until they can garner a sufficient readership to attract enough advertising to support it. The ownership of The Mud Companion's "crime" was not in any ill-intention, but simple naivete about the costs of starting a magazine. It sounds to me like he wasn't prepared for the almost guaranteed period of unprofitability.

Unprofitability isn't as big a problem as incurring loses you aren't able to maintain. Although the bigger problem was lack of community support in general -- extremely disappointing was the lack of response from purchasers of zMUD.

I had expected that a good number of the people who were willing to pay for a MUD client would be willing to pay for a MUD magazine. I was sadly mistaken. Of the thousands of free magazines that got sent out, only a small handful ended up subscribing.

Originally Posted by Regardless however, he did take people's money and hasn't so far delivered on what he took the money for. Whatever his intentions were in putting out the magazine, he did take money in return for a service he hasn't so far provided. It's not really incumbent on the consumer to care what the financial difficulties of the content provider are once the consumer has paid for the content.

A yearly subscription of a quarterly magazine means that you get four magazines per year. It doesn't guarantee that you will get them on an exact date.

The main reason that most of the issues came out late was because we received the articles and advertisements late. I'm sure we could have put the magazine out on time missing half of its content if that is what would have been preferable to the subscribers.

Technically I could mail out a four page leaflet for issue #5 and #6 and still fulfill my obligation. Nothing guarantees the number of pages or quality of the magazine. Even though I say, "Full color cover", I could scribble on the cover with a crayon and not be breaking any obligations.

Very few people have offered me continual support in this endeavor. The ones that have know who they are, and it should be quite obvious by looking at the magazines.

I had a vision of producing something to unite and liberate the MUD community. To give them their place in history in concrete form.

I certainly didn't do it for money, and you'd have to be insane to think that was any part of it. I did everything I could to make both advertising and subscription prices as rock bottom as possible, and had special discounts for non-profit sites.

I provided an outlet for people in the MUD community to show off their talents, be it coding, building, drawing or anything MUD related. I gave people the chance to get their work in print -- something to show their friends and family.

I wanted it to be professional looking, and impressive enough so that people could feel proud to hand the magazine to someone and say, "This is what I do."

Originally Posted by Still, it sounds to me like most people are only out a couple bucks, which is not a big deal by any stretch.

As I said, there was no time guarantee. As for what it said on the website, it said, "Mailing starts next week". That didn't say that mailing would be finished that week.

Most people are only out a few months of receiving their magazine. The magazines will be shipped, and in the case that we don't have enough magazines to fill subscriptions (i.e. we don't make any more issues), I will refund the difference.

[Winddancer]

Hi. I am a subscriber from Europe. Since I know from my own tabletop club how much problems a fan-magazine can cause and what effort is put in it, I was quite ok waiting.
However, I would have at least expected an answer to my numerous emails to the subscription email. I mean, I am ok waiting, if I know it will come, one day. *eg*

[Ntanel]

Patience is a virtue!

[Ashon]

Originally Posted by (Neranz Laverani @ Nov. 04 2002,3:47 pm) What I am asking for is for people who do nothing but criticize to contribute instead, to do something constructive with their energy.  There is nothing wrong with quietly sitting back coding and stepping up when asked.  That is constructive not destructive. If we want good global resources, we can only have them by contributing.  They don't just happen on their own.

You're asking for a lot from a community that looks down upon it's own an awful lot.

Administrators look down on players as twinks, cheaters, and headaches. With the of exceptional ones.

Players look at administrators as power freaks, children, and fun stoppers. With the exceptional ones.

In a community that has so much infighting and is disfragmented it becomes difficult to get contributions to the community. It is the exceptional ones that step foward. And there are only a handfull of those. I bet we could make a list that would number a little under 50 of people who are considered, exceptional in our community. And that's in a community of thousands.

What we need are people who try to build a community of exceptionals. There have been tries but no one has been able to do it. I think IR, MCM, TMC, TMS, are all examples of places where these exceptionals come to congregate, and exchange ideas.

Just my thoughts of the matter.

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (Neranz Laverani @ Nov. 04 2002,2:10 pm) There is still the issue that people want good magazines and websites, but don't want to help create them by contributing, then rag on the sites or magazines creators because the sites or magazines aren't timely or don't succeed.  Many more people seem willing to take than to give.  If everyone takes, nothing can be created.  The "community" is devouring itself.

The subscribers contributed by paying their money. In return they have the right to expect to get what they paid for. It's not the responsibility of the consumer to do anything beyond that.

--matt

[Orion Elder]

Thoric, the definition of a quarterly magazine is one that comes out every quarter. Does it mean you'll get it by a specific date? No, does it mean it'll be mailed out approximately every three months? Yes.

To quarter something is to create four equal pieces. To do 3 months, 3 months, 3 months, 7 months (or however long it has been) is not quarterly. You should change it to state that Mud Companion is a MUD magazine, and that a subscription is for four issues, however often they may come out.

Further more, you DID set specific dates by saying that the issues 'will be mailed this week.'

No offense, but you seem to have ignored my posts entirely, aside from the part about it being quarterly.

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (Thoric @ Nov. 04 2002,4:34 pm) [Unprofitability isn't as big a problem as incurring loses you aren't able to maintain.  Although the bigger problem was lack of community support in general -- extremely disappointing was the lack of response from purchasers of zMUD. I had expected that a good number of the people who were willing to pay for a MUD client would be willing to pay for a MUD magazine.  I was sadly mistaken.  Of the thousands of free magazines that got sent out, only a small handful ended up subscribing. A yearly subscription of a quarterly magazine means that you get four magazines per year.  It doesn't guarantee that you will get them on an exact date. The main reason that most of the issues came out late was because we received the articles and advertisements late.  I'm sure we could have put the magazine out on time missing half of its content if that is what would have been preferable to the subscribers. Technically I could mail out a four page leaflet for issue #5 and #6 and still fulfill my obligation.  Nothing guarantees the number of pages or quality of the magazine.  Even though I say, "Full color cover", I could scribble on the cover with a crayon and not be breaking any obligations. Very few people have offered me continual support in this endeavor.  The ones that have know who they are, and it should be quite obvious by looking at the magazines. I had a vision of producing something to unite and liberate the MUD community.  To give them their place in history in concrete form. I certainly didn't do it for money, and you'd have to be insane to think that was any part of it.  I did everything I could to make both advertising and subscription prices as rock bottom as possible, and had special discounts for non-profit sites. I provided an outlet for people in the MUD community to show off their talents, be it coding, building, drawing or anything MUD related.  I gave people the chance to get their work in print -- something to show their friends and family. I wanted it to be professional looking, and impressive enough so that people could feel proud to hand the magazine to someone and say, "This is what I do." Originally Posted by Still, it sounds to me like most people are only out a couple bucks, which is not a big deal by any stretch. As I said, there was no time guarantee.  As for what it said on the website, it said, "Mailing starts next week".  That didn't say that mailing would be finished that week. Most people are only out a few months of receiving their magazine.  The magazines will be shipped, and in the case that we don't have enough magazines to fill subscriptions (i.e. we don't make any more issues), I will refund the difference.

Originally Posted by Unprofitability isn't as big a problem as incurring loses you aren't able to maintain.

Nod, that's what I meant by running in the red.

Originally Posted by I had expected that a good number of the people who were willing to pay for a MUD client would be willing to pay for a MUD magazine. I was sadly mistaken. Of the thousands of free magazines that got sent out, only a small handful ended up subscribing.

Well, and this is intended only as a constructive comment, not as criticism, but the reason I didn't subscribe to it is because a paper magazine aimed at text MUDs seems out of place, and superfluous. It's not a medium that lends itself well to a glossy magazine, because there's no way to take a screenshot of your imagination, which is the canvas a MUD is painted on. There's also inevitably going to be a lack of quality content. I'm not trying to criticize anyone, but nearly all the articles written about text MUDs in particular (as opposed to virtual spaces in general) come off as somewhat amateurish. That's fine in the sense that most of the people doing the writing are hobbyists, but at the same time, it clashes with your goal of a glossy magazine. I really just think a website is a better medium for the information and target audience.

The reason I didn't advertise in it is because I didn't think it would get sufficient circulation, due to the above reasons. It wasn't about supporting anything to me, but about where to best place our advertising budget.

Originally Posted by A yearly subscription of a quarterly magazine means that you get four magazines per year. It doesn't guarantee that you will get them on an exact date.

Sure, I'd agree with that.

Originally Posted by The main reason that most of the issues came out late was because we received the articles and advertisements late. I'm sure we could have put the magazine out on time missing half of its content if that is what would have been preferable to the subscribers.

Understandable, though from a strictly commerce point of view, the buck stops with you. If the ads and articles aren't ready, it's your fault from the consumer's point of view. (I wasn't a consumer and have nothing against you at all. Fault doesn't have to carry negative ethical implications.)

Originally Posted by Technically I could mail out a four page leaflet for issue #5 and #6 and still fulfill my obligation. Nothing guarantees the number of pages or quality of the magazine. Even though I say, "Full color cover", I could scribble on the cover with a crayon and not be breaking any obligations.

Yep. You wouldn't look good, but hey, #### happens. If you formed a corporation or limited partnership/LLC to do it, you could simply shut down and not suffer any personal legal liability. Sole propietorships are cheap to declare and maintain, but the risk is greatly increased.

Originally Posted by I wanted it to be professional looking, and impressive enough so that people could feel proud to hand the magazine to someone and say, "This is what I do."

Check out www.mogonline.com. It's put out by Versus, but only covers graphical MUDs really (though Eternal City is listed on its list of games for some reason, oddly enough).

So I was going to guarantee a loan for someone when I was a bit younger, and went to the bank with my friend to talk to the loan officer. The loan officer wanted to speak to me alone, and once my friend was out of the room, he said to me (and I'll never forget this, as it was sound advice), "Matt, we're in the loan business. We're successful in the loan business. If your friend's credit isn't good enough for us, why is it good enough for you?" I poo-pood his advice saying I knew my friend better than the bank's credit scoring algorithm does and guaranteed the loan. My friend, of course, defaulted about 9 months later, leaving me to pay it or ruin my credit. He didn't do it with any malice. One just can't get blood from a stone, as the saying goes.

In other words, if Versus and Prima, who are very successful at doing printed game-related material, don't see the text MUD market as being able to support a flashy magazine, why did/do you? I mean, I'm not saying that they're automatically right. They may not have considered it (unlikely I'd say. They were just waiting for the online market to get big enough generally to support one), or may simply be slow in taking advantage of an opportunity, giving you the chance to do it first. But more likely, the reason is that they know the market isn't there to support the kind of magazine you want/wanted to do.

Anyway, I wish you luck, but my (unsolicited and therefore possibly rude) advice is to cut your losses now, and perhaps turn your attention towards a website.

--matt

[the_logos]

Ugh, sorry about that long superfluous quote from above.

--matt

[Neranz Laverani]

Originally Posted by (the_logos @ Nov. 04 2002,6:25 pm) Originally Posted by Anyway, I wish you luck, but my (unsolicited and therefore possibly rude) advice is to cut your losses now, and perhaps turn your attention towards a website. --matt

So it can be torn apart like Game Commandos was?

Why even bother?

Your form of criticism is for a printed magazine. There are many others willing to criticize websites put up by people trying to help. I've been called an elitist, overblown, arrogant person who believes my way is the only way much more than I have been complimented for trying to help the building community. Caring about the community, wanting to help it, leaves you open to these attacks. These attacks are what drive people who care away, thus lessening the community.

I still think the magazine is an excellent concept and could grow with time.

I thought I had calmed down a little. I guess I haven't.

[Orion Elder]

Well, in a discussion with some others about the idea of a printed magazine, I pointed out why most people don't submit articles. This is a hobbyists magazine, that is true, but there is no real compensation for articles submitted.

The only compensation offered to authors is a free issue. While that's all good and well if the author isn't subscribed to the magazine, but why would one want a free issue of a magazine to which they are more than likely subscribed? If you tack the free issue onto their subscription (which very well may be how it is done, I don't know), that likely helps, some... but it still isn't much. For submitting an article, I get a $2.50 magazine that I'd more than likely have bought anyway?

Offering some sort of compensation for articles printed is the only way to get people sufficiently interested in submitting.


Just my two cents.

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (Neranz Laverani @ Nov. 04 2002,8:59 pm) So it can be torn apart like Game Commandos was? Why even bother? Your form of criticism is for a printed magazine.  There are many others willing to criticize websites put up by people trying to help.  I've been called an elitist, overblown, arrogant person who believes my way is the only way much more than I have been complimented for trying to help the building community.  Caring about the community, wanting to help it, leaves you open to these attacks.  These attacks are what drive people who care away, thus lessening the community. I still think the magazine is an excellent concept and could grow with time.

Who cares if it is torn apart? The point is to garner enough readership to support itself. If some loudmouths don't like it, tough beans for them. If you can't take attacks on your product, don't start, because they are inevitable. Besides, the angry kids that rant about everything on this site and others are to be ignored. There's no reason to care about their opinions, as they don't represent anyone but themselves, and they are a trivial percentage of people who play MUDs.


And what I gave isn't an attack but constructive criticism. The difference is enormous. It's well and good for you to believe that he should continue to invest thousands of dollars, but it's his money that's being wasted, not yours.

A text MUD magazine might be an excellent concept, but it's not a particularly financially feasible one.

--matt

[Robbert]

Two thoughts, simply to satisfy my need to speak my mind:

a: First, no matter what semantic twist you put on it - quarterly issues or four yearly issues, the result is the same: a product was purchased with the understanding that between August 2001 and August 2002 four issues would be received.

b: The angst towards Mud Companion comes, not from the failure of obligations to (a) above, but from the lacadaisical response to genuine questions about the status.

As I said previously (and, by the by Thoric, I think it's great to see you responding to this thread) - all it would have taken to placate me was something as simple as a "Hey, got your mail, and can't respond right now".

Despite the best efforts of the post office, electronic mail remains a free service.

And, while we're on that thought, here's an idea: dual-cast the magazine. That is, publish it in hard copy, but also include a digital version, viewable to paying members. This allows you leeway in distributing the printed copy at your leisure. Heck, you could even hold them in abeyance and do bulk mailing annually. This gives you the medium you wanted for subscribers to show "This is what I do" still, while at the same time allowing for content to be easily distributable to those who are paying.

I'd be willing to pay double the current price for something like that. Providing there was active response to concerns, such as is now occuring on this thread, when they were aired.

[Ashon]

I am an avid defender of Game Commando's. Ilya and Natalia were wonderful additions to our community. The gave insight in meaningful ways, they were always open to discussion, and they were just downright nice.

I still remember the day that I found the notice posted on their site. It was a sad day indeed. And to show that I was going to miss them, I purchased a Game Commando's T-Shirt.

But to the topic at hand,
Maybe if MCM went the way of many D20 publishers and offered it in a PDF for 2.50 a magazine, and print for a limited run for 7.50 an issue. The Security on PDF's have increased, and you can expect more readers, as they can see an immediate return for their investment. (Plus they can buy back issues at no extra cost for you the publisher). Having taken a more indepth look at the MCM page, the magazine had a good start, it had some big hitters writing for it, and it had a couple of articles that interested me. But the difference between the first and fourth article astounded me. Yes there was more content, but bygolly give me quality over quantity any day of the week.