[the_logos]

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Originally Posted by (Brody @ Dec. 01 2004,16[img http://www.topmudsites.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif[/img]6)]Well, yeah, they'll do something about text if it's titillating and a little scandalous. They're unlikely to do something simply to remind people that these games exist, however, unless we appear to glorify drugs or something, it seems. Nothing against Achaea's coverage - publicity like that is awesome for a game. However, if the only way to get publicity from the mainstream game magazines is to push the envelope of cultural mores ... I dunno if that's the way we want to go to promote the genre as a whole. Still, considering the PC games that get a lot of mainstream press - Grand Theft Auto, Leisure Suit Larry and even all the hubub about the JFK Reloaded game - and maybe I'm just thinking too moderately!

Well, consider this: What else is a mainsteram gaming magazine going to talk about? You have to give them a reason to cover you. Those reasons are pretty unlikely to be most of what most text MUDs focus on: monster bashing, roleplaying, etc. Monster bashing in text is not interesting since the big graphical games focus on it. "Real" roleplaying (as opposed to the "roleplaying" you find in Everquest and company) is so niche it makes text look mainstream, so they're not going to talk about that. That covers the focus of most text MUDs right there. Monster bashing and roleplaying.

As far as Grand Theft Auto goes...it gets attention largely because it's an institution at this point. Leisure Suit Larry also was once mainstream.

The interesting one you listed is JFK Reloaded. They did not have much of a marketing budget, they certainly are not a mainstream game, and really, their game is minimal at best. Not a lot of breadth to it! They got LOADS of coverage though and are likely doing very well out of it all.  Same with like Kuma reality games, and their simulation of the John Kerry swiftboar missions.

My only point is that you have to give the media something interesting/new to talk about if you want to get covered by them. The fact that they can't even show worthwhile screenshots of text games is an added hinderance.

One of the things we're going to be paying this marketing firm to help us with is PR work, including stuff like Q&As on various games websites and so on. Even with bringing on professional help though, it's highly unlikely we'll be able to get any kind of predictable coverage in major games magazines. We talked about doing a press tour, but the marketers and we both agreed that it'd probably be a waste of money for Iron Realms, as the major gaming magazines simply aren't going to cover text muds without something extreme like gleam for them to focus on (and gleam is a gimmick really. Not, by any stretch of the word, a focus for any sort of gameplay, though going through withdrawl is pretty cool in a 'Holy **** this is disturbing' kind of way.)

--matt

[Brody]

Originally Posted by (the_logos @ Dec. 01 2004,16:51) Originally Posted by (Brody @ Dec. 01 2004,16<!--emo&[img http://www.topmudsites.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif[/img])]Well, yeah, they'll do something about text if it's titillating and a little scandalous. They're unlikely to do something simply to remind people that these games exist, however, unless we appear to glorify drugs or something, it seems. Nothing against Achaea's coverage - publicity like that is awesome for a game. However, if the only way to get publicity from the mainstream game magazines is to push the envelope of cultural mores ... I dunno if that's the way we want to go to promote the genre as a whole. Still, considering the PC games that get a lot of mainstream press - Grand Theft Auto, Leisure Suit Larry and even all the hubub about the JFK Reloaded game - and maybe I'm just thinking too moderately! Well, consider this: What else is a mainsteram gaming magazine going to talk about? You have to give them a reason to cover you. Those reasons are pretty unlikely to be most of what most text MUDs focus on: monster bashing, roleplaying, etc. Monster bashing in text is not interesting since the big graphical games focus on it. "Real" roleplaying (as opposed to the "roleplaying" you find in Everquest and company) is so niche it makes text look mainstream, so they're not going to talk about that. That covers the focus of most text MUDs right there. Monster bashing and roleplaying. As far as Grand Theft Auto goes...it gets attention largely because it's an institution at this point. Leisure Suit Larry also was once mainstream. The interesting one you listed is JFK Reloaded. They did not have much of a marketing budget, they certainly are not a mainstream game, and really, their game is minimal at best. Not a lot of breadth to it! They got LOADS of coverage though and are likely doing very well out of it all. Same with like Kuma reality games, and their simulation of the John Kerry swiftboar missions. My only point is that you have to give the media something interesting/new to talk about if you want to get covered by them. The fact that they can't even show worthwhile screenshots of text games is an added hinderance. One of the things we're going to be paying this marketing firm to help us with is PR work, including stuff like Q&As on various games websites and so on. Even with bringing on professional help though, it's highly unlikely we'll be able to get any kind of predictable coverage in major games magazines. We talked about doing a press tour, but the marketers and we both agreed that it'd probably be a waste of money for Iron Realms, as the major gaming magazines simply aren't going to cover text muds without something extreme like gleam for them to focus on (and gleam is a gimmick really. Not, by any stretch of the word, a focus for any sort of gameplay, though going through withdrawl is pretty cool in a 'Holy **** this is disturbing' kind of way.) --matt

Having worked as a journalist for 10 years, I totally understand what it takes to get a reporter interested in what you're doing. That's why I noted Achaea's hook for coverage: It was controversial, so it got attention. Grand Theft Auto wasn't always an institution - it got a lot of press for its violence, punching hookers, glorifying reckless driving, all that jazz. And while I think you did a fantastic job of snagging attention with gleam, I get the feeling there's only so many times text games can bark up that tree before it becomes 'same stuff, different day.' That said, I doubt we've exhausted the opportunities to draw attention ... it's just a matter of finding taboo/edgy things to offer and daring to do it

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by Brody,Dec. 01 2004,17[img http://www.topmudsites.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif[/img]2]

Originally Posted by That's why I noted Achaea's hook for coverage: It was controversial, so it got attention. Grand Theft Auto wasn't always an institution - it got a lot of press for its violence, punching hookers, glorifying reckless driving, all that jazz.

Yeah, I meant San Andreas. GTA 3 raised the bar for acceptable violence in mainstream video games and now it's kind of routine, so people don't cover the violence in San Andreas with anywhere near the same fervor they did for GTA 3 or Vice City.

Originally Posted by And while I think you did a fantastic job of snagging attention with gleam, I get the feeling there's only so many times text games can bark up that tree before it becomes 'same stuff, different day.' That said, I doubt we've exhausted the opportunities to draw attention ... it's just a matter of finding taboo/edgy things to offer and daring to do it

Oh, for sure. We can't just repeat the same thing in different forms over and over. I'd also add 'new-sounding' to taboo/edgy. So, for instance, a game like A Tale in the Desert gets a lot more coverage than you might think it would judging by its relatively small playerbase, due to its relatively unique style of gameplay. I think a lot of the text MUD world is handicaped there by downloadable codebases though. When you're starting with what's designed to be a monster bashing game (which most of the codebases are designed to be), you're probably (there are exceptions of course) going to end up with a monster bashing game. (And please for the love of god, can we not start a flamewar about downloadable codebases?) A single unique or new system is probably not enough to garner a lot of attention, beyond flash-in-the-pan type attention. ATITD gets ongoing attention because it's entire game is fairly innovative.

--matt

[Threshold]

I'd like to add that even getting a writeup in Computer Gaming Magazine has minimal effects.

Last year they did an "MMORPG Roundup" where they talked about all the current MMORPGs and those coming.

Threshold got its own little section and they talked about the fiercely devoted players, the RP focus, etc.

The affect of this writeup was hardly even noticeable in terms of new players.

I think I remember Logos mentioning somewhere that even the Gleam write ups did not have much effect in terms of actual users.

I think it would take a TON of mainstream write ups to help a text mud, or text muds in general. You need saturation.

Marketing experts know that it isn't until like the 5th or 10th or 100th time that you see some product mentioned that you actually become intrigued by it.

[Brody]

Originally Posted by (Threshold @ Dec. 01 2004,18:57) I'd like to add that even getting a writeup in Computer Gaming Magazine has minimal effects. Last year they did an "MMORPG Roundup" where they talked about all the current MMORPGs and those coming. Threshold got its own little section and they talked about the fiercely devoted players, the RP focus, etc. The affect of this writeup was hardly even noticeable in terms of new players. I think I remember Logos mentioning somewhere that even the Gleam write ups did not have much effect in terms of actual users. I think it would take a TON of mainstream write ups to help a text mud, or text muds in general. You need saturation. Marketing experts know that it isn't until like the 5th or 10th or 100th time that you see some product mentioned that you actually become intrigued by it.

That's not a bad point. You know, here's a fun experiment to try. I've recently joined the forums at SCI-FI Channel's website - http://www.scifi.com

So, what if a bunch of us join and put Top MUD Sites in our sig line? Post on-topic in threads that interest us - and try to do what we can about posting in the same threads, so our sigs pop up with more frequency. See if that starts drawing people toward TMS and our games

Thoughts?

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (Threshold @ Dec. 01 2004,18:57) I think I remember Logos mentioning somewhere that even the Gleam write ups did not have much effect in terms of actual users.

Right. The Gleam writeups didn't. The coverage they gave us on TechTV, on the other hand, did. TechTV has an absolutely massive following compared to the games magazines though.

--matt

[Molly]

Brody; Dec. 01 2004,04

Originally Posted by I doubt they'll post actual articles. But you could send letters to the editor to Computer Gaming World or PC Gamer (both have websites you can Google), and you might get some response. Some OtherSpace players did that last year and got published.

Hmm, my intent was actually to hit some Swedish magazines, (since after all Swedish is my first language). And I wasn’t planning on targeting Gaming Magazines either, rather culture, media or literature categories, as long as they have some kind of section for internet links. I’m not nearly as pessimistic as you are about the chances to get the stuff published either. I’ve worked quite a bit with freelance journalism myself, and my own experience is that most magazines happily accept freelance articles, as long as they are entertaining/amusing/interesting. They even usually pay for them, although payment wouldn’t be an issue in this case.

But, maybe you are right. Maybe it would be better to target some larger, English-language, international magazine instead. A lot harder to get the stuff in. But a lot better impact if you actually succeed. Guess I’ll give it some more thought.

Anyhow, Jazuela, Brody and Sanvean got me started along another line of thought. Maybe the idea I am toying with now is totally unrealistic, but I’ll toss it out anyhow and see how it flies:

What if some of us with ‘creative-writing talents’ joined forces and put together a number of short stories based on the quaint world of Text Muds. I am not talking about ‘promotional’ stuff now; I mean real short stories – funny, intriguing, thrilling, entertaining stories… Illustrations of what a good text Mud can offer its visitors. One perfect example of the kind of talent I am talking about is the silver-winning story from Mudworld’s Creative Writing contest 2004. The totally unexpected twist at the end of that story was hilarious, and very aptly illustrated the sometimes bizarre happenings on a mud, which I always found tremendously entertaining myself. (The story can be found on this link: http://www.mudworld.org/ImmU/contests/2004/story5.txt in case you want to refresh your memory. There was another story, written by an Armageddon player in a similar, earlier contest, which also was of the type and quality that I think the stories for this venture should have. Unfortunately I lost the link to that one, but I am sure someone on Armageddon remembers and can provide it).

So, let’s say we put together about 10 stories of similar quality (only preferably a bit shorter), and then offer them as a ‘package deal’ to some selected target, (perhaps the RPG Times that Brody, mentioned or some other magazine with reasonably broad coverage)? Let’s say we manage to get all the stories published over a year’s time, to achieve the repetitive effect that Threshold mentioned? At the end of each story would of course always be a couple of useful links; for TMS, TMC, the author’s own mud, and perhaps some other good Mud sites.

The best that might happen would be if we could get some kind of reoccurring column, maybe called something like ‘Last tales from the quaint world of Text Muds’. Then we could take turns writing up stuff for that column. The worst… well, I guess all writers get used to not always being published. And we could always recycle the stories somewhere else, perhaps on this site.

In any case this would be a project based solely on the contribution of time and talent, no money involved. Worth a try or not?

[Brody]

It's probably worth a try. I just finished writing an OtherSpace novel for National Novel Writing Month (the bit where you finish 50,000 words in 30 days) and published the book. In the back, where it has the About the Author stuff, I've included links for Top MUD Sites and The MUD Connector. So, hopefully, that'll do a little good.

I'd definitely recommend submitting fiction to places like RPG Times - they are ALWAYS hungry for new content.

And I'd be willing to coordinate the production of free-distribution PDF featuring stories based on some of our games. Each story could have a blurb about the author and their game, and the PDF book itself would contain information about TMS and TMC. Anyone else who wants to contribute a story, let me know. If there's enough interest, we can talk deadlines.

[the_logos]

Another couple of Sci-fi/fantasy literature sites:

sfcrowsnest.com
sffworld.com

Lusternia is advertising on both places right now, though not with very impressive results.

[Angie]

You can use my story if you want - I'm just not sure whether a non-mudder can even understand it...

[Molly]

Angie; Dec. 02 2004,18:28

Originally Posted by You can use my story if you want - I'm just not sure whether a non-mudder can even understand it...

That's the point of the whole venture; to make people understand the nature of text muds. We'd have to start out with some explanations about that of course, and make the explanations as funny as possible.

But thanks for the offer, your story is just perfect for what I had in mind...

Any more takers? Iluvatar? Brody? Jazuela? Anyone else?*poke* *nudge*

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (Molly O'Hara @ Dec. 03 2004,03:47) That's the point of the whole venture; to make people understand the nature of text muds. We'd have to start out with some explanations about that of course, and make the explanations as funny as possible.

While it's well-intentioned, I can't say I see a written story showing anyone the nature of text MUDs. I've never found that anyone understands the nature of text MUDs without sitting down and playing them. The idea of a real-time world being represented in text is so foreign to most people. Of course, the stories may get a few people interested enough to sit down and try out text MUDs, which would be good.

[Spoke]

Originally Posted by (the_logos @ Dec. 03 2004,14:07) While it's well-intentioned, I can't say I see a written story showing anyone the nature of text MUDs. I've never found that anyone understands the nature of text MUDs without sitting down and playing them. ...

You may be right on this point, but this is also true for almost any product you learn-of through adverticing, until you try it, it is all about what the add had to show.

If I remember right, your original intention when you started the thread was to somehow target people who did not know yet about text games, people who were not already hooked in one of the many existing muds. The whole idea of having people writting stories and somehow adding in some "mud-spice" sounds like a good way to achieve it. It was mentioned earlier in the thread that what was important about adds was catching people's attention long enough for them to think about what is being told to them. If you give someone a good story they can enjoy, and then put the story in a MUD context somehow (which Molly or the others would have to figure out anyway ) you can achieve this effect, and as you said, maybe have some of this people to try at least one MUD.

The important thing, I believe, is that after you catch one person outside the usual pool of people who mud, you will get the usual process of him/her telling his/her friends, family and others about it, and the ancient process of player adverticing will begin anew. Just keep in mind, most of those posting here at some point were told that those colored lines filling someone's screen were not a computer research program or part of someone's work, and we were amazed too at the idea of a text game ... and here we are, and over the years we have lured many into this exciting hobby (or bussiness ) so, lets hook one or two, and let the process begin its natural course

[Tezcatlipoca]

Couple of points:
-First I think many of us (myself included) are possibly a bit guilty of pushing off MUDs as too "foreign" or difficult for "normal" people, which means we need to pay special attention to advertising it in special ways to them. While I still haven't completely convinced myself of this NOT being true, I think it would be worthwhile to play devil's advocate with the notion.
The first computer game made was a text based game that, except for the multiplayer environment, bears a striking resemblance to the style of most text based MUDs out there (although I think we can agree that while they may LOOK like "Zork" or one if it's counterparts on the surface, it's better to equate "Zork," the 10mm Hydra viridissima, to it's current MUD brother, the 10m long fifty headed Hydra). The game of course had many single player variants. So many that, I'd be willing to bet that many people who spent their adolescence or teenager years during either the 80's or the 90's, and used one of many different computer types that were commercially active, can recall playing (and probably enjoying) either “Zork”, or a variant of it. True, I’m focusing in again on a smaller group of people (“…and used [a] … computer…”) which certainly was no where near the extent we have today, but I’ve personally been pretty darned surprised at the people I’ve found that used to play such games, and even those that used to play multiplayer text based games (not necessarily MUDs however) on the old acoustically coupled modems. I’m also (although less so as I’ve found more and more) surprised at the number of people (younger people then the afore-mentioned) who have in fact heard of and even played MUDs before in semi-recent times. The excuses for quitting are usually the same of course: “not enough time… I was too addicted… everything else in my life screeched to a halt…”
Really, from personal experience, the only large groups of people I’ve found that played or at least seen a MUD before, are those of the “new” generation (those that are teenagers now--you know, the ones that are most apt to become problem players for a while before they get bored). Interestingly enough, this generation is the most computer heavy generation of any so far, with strong focus on the Internet, and more importantly, games. The games they’re used to seeing ARE the flashy new games with huge intricate engines, massive attention to graphical detail and which tend to favor a short reaction time over an imaginative or quick thinking brain. These, although I’ve managed to pull a few in myself, tend not to be the most creative players. They also almost never have seen or heard of MUDs before. They might, in turn, not be the best people to focus on.
If the people we focus on are those that already are aware of MUDs, then what’s the point in advertising right? Well… I don’t think we can say that every person that has heard of a MUD is an ex-MUDder him or herself. A campaign for reintroduction of these people into the text-based genre may be advantageous. Starting with those who are most apt to jump ship in terms of time availability--college students.
But an overall reintroduction campaign I think might be worthwhile. It just needs to present to them both tasty morsels of MUDding that they now miss and can still get excited about, as well as presenting them with recent changes which take care of those problems they finally decided to bail out because of (as mentioned earlier by someone else, too much Rping, or too much H&S; not enough of a balanced fun, mix, or even alternate activities to both). It might also be worthwhile to tell them that they don’t NEED to spend every waking moment of their lives on the game anymore. With the mixed pay/free MUDs out there, money can be supplemented for time in terms of “getting somewhere” in the MUD world (although I understand and respect that some people here might not agree with that method of administration). Another option: with so many other styles of MUDs out there, I’m pretty sure (although I haven’t looked) that there exists MUDs that don’t require lots of time to play so much, as just a place to stop by when you have time and kick back for a few minutes or an hour, and yet STILL have fun, and maybe even still get somewhere because of quality playing during those few minutes.

-Second point (the first one started turning into a rant. I figured I probably should divide it up before I find myself with only one point). Spoke restates a great point; the best way of “advertising” is through word of mouth. Or at the very least, it’s been the mainstay of MUD advertising as I’ve seen it. It’s how I got into it probably closing in on 10 years ago now... I’ve honestly lost count… 10 doesn’t seem right, but I think only because it makes me seem older then I want to admit to myself. Either way, wherever I’ve been, the primary means of “advertising” the MUD was to get players to mention it to people they knew; friends, family members, online acquaintances, ect. I can’t say that they achieved earth-shattering results of course—there’s many reason for that I think—but I know it does work, as I’m a product of it working.

-Third point. This isn’t really a point I don’t think. In fact, I’m not sure any of these could be considered “points.” More like crappy advice. At any rate… posting “MUD Stories” is not a bad idea at all. But I’d suggest posting a mix of them. Most that I’ve heard mentioned are humorous ones. I’d suggest mixing those with tragic ones, violent ones, and all sorts of different kinds. Humor is an attractive device, but if you present nothing but humor, you might find people merely taking what you’re presenting as a joke. That and as great as the humor can be in MUDs (especially the ironies involved in some of your more run of the mill-MUDs, or those involved in H&S MUDs [the “good” aligned elf slaughtering eliminating whole populations of people just to gain a level]), the way we can spin some more tragic tales in can provide even more impact. The story that got me MUDing wasn’t necessarily a funny one (although I could find humor in it as I’m sure many others could) was one on a standard DIKU H&S variant: the protagonist was working with others in a clan. The antagonist stole something from him or some such. Either way it started a bit of a clan war. It wind down to him walking into the cathedral (I’m sure many of you know which I’m talking about) where the antagonist was sleeping, dragging him out by his collar, and hacking him apart there on the steps. In fact, this story is so generic that I’d be willing to bet half of us have been on both sides of that story multiple times. But it hooked me. The intrigue of being able to work WITH other people AGAINST other people in such an environment, even one with such loose RP as a H&S, was attractive, with no intended humor involved really.

I think I’m out of points but for those who think I write too much to get my point across (an acceptable opinion) here’s a condensed version:
1) Don’t necessarily bank on the idea that we’re an isolated group of gamers, surrounded by a larger group of generic gamers that haven’t ever heard of MUDs, and requires them to be explained. Many people KNOW MUDs are out there. Others that don’t, don’t necessarily need them explained, or need to understand them, in order to get them hooked.
2) “Networking,” although I find it personally abhorred when job searching, is effective in spreading the word of MUDs, as “proven” by most player’s histories.
3) Don’t focus on one aspect of MUDs. They’re too complex to stop there. Humor is great, but there’s a lot more then can be presented in a MUD-story format, just or maybe even more, effectively.

[Molly]

The_logos; Dec. 03 2004,14,07

Originally Posted by