Originally Posted by (the_logos @ Dec. 06 2004,04:58) Ahh right, it's ok for you to make a post shunning Medievia and implying they're horribly unethical, but can't have anyone pointing out that you do the same thing can we?

The Mercthievia staff are horribly unethical. Liars and thieves.. They ought to be shunned. They deserve a good shunning and a smack everytime they open their prevaricating gobs.

[Jazuela]

Just as an FYI, I googled over to the official Star Wars website, to see if I could find any actual policies. I found some.

Edited to add: Bold emphasis mine.

Originally Posted by STAR WARS, STARWARS.COM; STAR WARS: EPISODE ITHE PHANTOM MENACE; STAR WARS: EPISODE IIATTACK OF THE CLONES; STAR WARS: EPISODE III; STAR WARS: EPISODE IVA NEW HOPE; STAR WARS: EPISODE VTHE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK; STAR WARS: EPISODE VIRETURN OF THE JEDI; and all logos, characters, artwork, stories, information, names, and other elements associated thereto are the sole and exclusive property of Lucas. Any use of any of the materials on this Site other than for private, non-commercial viewing purposes is strictly prohibited. The sale, auction, lease, loan, gift, trade or barter, or use of any of the text, graphics, photographs, audio and/or video material or stills from audiovisual material or any other materials contained herein, for any other purpose, in any form, media or technology now known or hereafter developed, including the use of any of the aforementioned materials on any other Web site or networked computer environment, without a prior written consent from Lucas, is expressly prohibited.

Seems pretty clear to me that anyone offering a Star Wars-themed game to the public (meaning, not for private use) without getting permission from Lucasfilms is violating the copyright of Lucasfilms' Star Wars.

Whether they choose to enforce the copyright is another matter entirely, but I kinda agree - if you are violating the rights to someone else's property, you really have little call to criticise someone else for doing the same thing.

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by (Jazuela @ Dec. 06 2004,15:10) http://ginka.armageddon.org

Anyone know what Wizards of the Coast's policy is towards usage of their campaign settings, out of interest? Just curious, as Armageddon certainly borrows a lot from Dark Sun (certainly far more than just an area based on the theme, like 4 Dimensions does with Star Wars).

[Sanvean]

The game did start with a Dark Sun setting, which we've acknowleged, but over the past decade since I've come on staff, we've tried to move the game away from that for precisely that reason, going through and removing references where we can without tampering with the flavor of the game, and I think we've gotten much farther away from it than many of the MUDs who share D&Dish type origins.

I'm not sure how this has turned into a "let's get ****y about Armageddon's origins because one of its players said something about Star Wars" thread, but I've pretty much given up on trying to steer it back into something useful. Molly, if you want, I'm sure we've got some good fiction to contribute - most of them are listed at here. Perhaps we could set up some sort of collaborative group for this - I'm hoping Brody might be interested as well. If people interested in that sort of collaboration to promote mudding through essays, fiction, etc, want to email me at spezzatura@gmail.com, I'd be glad to set something up. I work with a couple of online writers' groups and this would be pretty similar.

[Sanvean]

Apologies for the double, but in going back to look at the thread, my offer's redundant since Molly's made it already. I'll email her.

[Molly]

Jazuela; 06 2004,09:10

Originally Posted by Any use of any of the materials on this Site other than for private, non-commercial viewing purposes is strictly prohibited.

I think the main keyword here is ‘non-commercial’. Using copyrighted material as inspiration in a NON-COMMERCIAL mud can in my opinion be equalled to looking at a StarWars video together with a number of friends in my home. The non-commercial Muds are not in any way making money from the copyrighted material.  They are also in no way HARMING the StarWars company - (or any other book/film company whose material they might be referring to) - financially in doing this. In fact they are rather doing them a favour, most likely sending some new customers their way every now and then. (I think one of the main reasons why the Lucas Company never has taken any legal action even against the numerous free Muds that are totally based on StarWars material is, that they are smart enough to recognise it for what it is; free publicity).  

Now, if the Mud using the same material happens to be COMMERCIAL, that would be another matter. Then they would actually be making a PROFIT on someone else’s work, without the consent of that person, and THAT I find unethical. That is what Medievia is doing with the Diku licence, and that is why I find what they are doing a lot worse than the existence of a number of Startroopers or hobbits in a number of free Muds.

It would also be another matter if the Lucas Company actually had plans on creating their own StarWars Text Mud. Then, and only then, would any free StarWars muds actually become a problem, because they might theoretically take some players from the company’s own Mud.

However, this issue has been debated to death already in another mega-size thread, (which I believe the_logos started with another flame, directed at The Shadows of Isildur that time). I see no point in hashing the same arguments over and over again. Anyone interested in what was said at that time, can just go and dredge that old thread up again.

Now, in a final attempt to get this thread back on topic again - thanks Brody, Angie, Eagleon and Sanvean for the offers of support and cooperation. I think if we all work together on this, we might be getting somewhere here after all. Perhaps Sanvean or Brody could set a mailing group up or something, so we can discuss some details without boring everybody on the list to death? I'm no good with that kind of stuff myself.

(Sidenote to Sanvean; I'll go view that site of yours now. I very vividly remember an absolutely fascinating story about the perils of succumbing to the deadly charms of the women in the main city of Armagéddon...

I hope I'll find it on that page...)

[Threshold]

Originally Posted by (Molly O'Hara @ Dec. 06 2004,12:10) Jazuela; 06 2004,09:10 Originally Posted by Any use of any of the materials on this Site other than for private, non-commercial viewing purposes is strictly prohibited. I think the main keyword here is ‘non-commercial’. Using copyrighted material as inspiration in a NON-COMMERCIAL mud can in my opinion be equalled to looking at a StarWars video together with a number of friends in my home.

It says "private, non-commercial."

That means it has to be both PRIVATE *and* non-commercial.

4 Dimensions is *not* private.

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (Molly O'Hara @ Dec. 06 2004,12:10) I think the main keyword here is ‘non-commercial’. Using copyrighted material as inspiration in a NON-COMMERCIAL mud can in my opinion be equalled to looking at a StarWars video together with a number of friends in my home.

Which would fall under private, non-commercial. As Threshold pointed out, 4 Dimensions is public, not private. What you're doing is the same as screening a Star Wars movie for the public, but just not charging them for entry, which is patently a violation of Lucas's IP rights to his movies.

But hey, don't let that stop you from slamming Medievia for supposedly doing exactly the same thing (I say supposedly because they don't actually openly advertise that they're doing it, unlike you.)

--matt

[Jazuela]

Originally Posted by (KaVir @ Dec. 06 2004,10:49) Originally Posted by (Jazuela @ Dec. 06 2004,15:10) http://ginka.armageddon.org Anyone know what Wizards of the Coast's policy is towards usage of their campaign settings, out of interest? Just curious, as Armageddon certainly borrows a lot from Dark Sun (certainly far more than just an area based on the theme, like 4 Dimensions does with Star Wars).

It's also important to bear in mind, KaVir, that I am not an administrator, owner, or even an IMM on Armageddon. I have no control over their policies and procedures, and the only input I am granted is that of a player.

I'd never even HEARD of Dark Sun until I started playing Armageddon, and even then had no idea it was the name of a WoC campaign - since I've never played any tabletop RPGs in my life and don't know anyone outside of the internet that has, or does.

I wouldn't know a Dark Sun reference in Arm if it slammed me in the face. So - quoting the link from -my- post, as though you are singling me out for daring to do so - is meaningless. I'm not a hypocrite because I have nothing to do with Armageddon, other than the fact that I play it.

Oh and it also supposedly shares a common theme, or similar somethings, with Dune, a book which I have never had any interest in reading. You can't really claim, imply, or even suggest that I am responsible for that, and therefore am a hypocrite - since I'm not on staff of Arm, never have been, and likely never will be.

[John]

While all this is well and good, it is fairly off-topic, but is important to who can write stories.

If you're going to work on getting stories together and then publishing them (especially if you're publishing them in print), you may want to not accept stories from muds that do infringe on copyright. Infringe is when they don't have permission (either specific permission or just general permission). If a mud does have permission to operate a mud (such as a certain Wheel of Time mud) then you still may not want to accept stories as permission to operate a mud is NOT the same as permission to publish stories. You need permission for any new thing you wish to do with someone's copyright (unless of course the permission goes along the lines of "you may use my copyrighted material" not "you may use my copyrighted material in your mud").

Although it may be safe enough to accept stories from muds that do infringe upon copyright as long as the story doesn't contain any of the copyrighted material.

However while getting permission from the author of the story is important, you may want to get permission from the mud itself.

There's a lot of legal issues to consider with this and I am not a lawyer.

But I'm pretty sure it isn't okay to create stories of a WoT based mud and publish those stories in magazines without permission from Robert Jordan, the mud owner and the story owner. You may not need permission from the copyright owner of the original work if muds only contain copyright infringements (such as Dimensions 4) but can be excluded from a story.

Yes, I realise this mean's Armageddon is excluded if you're going to create a stringent policy

Originally Posted by (Jazuela @ Dec. 06 2004,16:52) You can't really claim, imply, or even suggest that I am responsible for that, and therefore am a hypocrite - since I'm not on staff of Arm, never have been, and likely never will be.

Sure he can. If you think the Armeggedon property is copyright infringement then you're a hypocrite for continuing to play on it. I personally don't think it is, lest anyone misundertand the finer point. I don't play the mud because it's simply not my preferred style of roleplaying game, though if it were it would be one of three or four I'd play.

OTOH, Mercthievia is pirated warez. No if's, and's, or but's about it. The difference between Mercthievia and a Star Wars mud is the same difference between premeditated murder and an accidental shooting. Mercthievia has no legitimate defense. The latter does frankly because Lucas actively encouraged it.

Luckily, I can spread the love around freely on this issue without being charged with hypocrisy. *ROFL*

Originally Posted by (John @ Dec. 06 2004,17:56) But I'm pretty sure it isn't okay to create stories of a WoT based mud and publish those stories in magazines without permission from Robert Jordan, the mud owner and the story owner. You may not need permission from the copyright owner of the original work if muds only contain copyright infringements (such as Dimensions 4) but can be excluded from a story.

Good advice and I'd think that would go without saying. One definately doesn't want accept any "Luke Skywalker is a homo" stories. Though I'm suprised LucasFilms got the take down on that one. I'd have thought it would have been protected under parody. Then again, I can undertand why Star Wars would see that as tarnishing their image and a really gay thing to do to with their characters.

Originally Posted by (the_logos @ Dec. 06 2004,14:52) But hey, don't let that stop you from slamming Medievia for supposedly doing exactly the same thing (I say supposedly because they don't actually openly advertise that they're doing it, unlike you.) --matt

No, not the same thing. The little bastard Vryce stripped the copyright notices right out of the Diku code. Frankly I'm tired of the endless moral equivocation crapola between people doing non-commercial fan fiction and premeditated and blatant knavery.

Ah nevermind. There's enough red herrings around here to choke a seal colony.

[Traithe]

Originally Posted by (Tyche @ Dec. 06 2004,18:36) ... premeditated and blatant knavery ...

[red herring]

Whoa - that has to be one of the coolest phrases I've ever seen the word "premeditated" used in. I think I'm going to bust this one out on my crimlaw exam tomorrow. Mua!

[/red herring]

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (Tyche @ Dec. 06 2004,18:36) No, not the same thing.  The little bastard Vryce stripped the copyright notices right out of the Diku code.   Frankly I'm tired of the endless moral equivocation crapola between people doing non-commercial fan fiction and premeditated and blatant knavery.

Without casting judgements about it, to me they're both just using someone else's IP in a way they do not have permission to do so. There are legitimate moral systems that don't recognize any property rights, intellectual or otherwise. Happily for those of us creating our own IP, a lot of men in uniforms with guns and batons ultimately ensure we control our IP to some extent.

--matt

[Jazuela]

The derailed issue here..

Is that one administrator of a game that supposedly never got permission, or even asked for it, to use the property rights to someone else's product, is criticizing the administrator of another game, which supposedly never got permission, or even asked for it, to use the property rights to someone else's product.

I am neither the administrator of a game, nor the owner of a product being used by someone else.

In the issue at hand, I can in no possible way be construed as a hypocrite, because I have nothing at stake on either side of the arguement. I was merely pointing out an irony I noticed.

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (Jazuela @ Dec. 06 2004,18:48) The derailed issue here.. Is that one administrator of a game that supposedly never got permission, or even asked for it, to use the property rights to someone else's product, is criticizing the administrator of another game, which supposedly never got permission, or even asked for it, to use the property rights to someone else's product. I am neither the administrator of a game, nor the owner of a product being used by someone else. In the issue at hand, I can in no possible way be construed as a hypocrite, because I have nothing at stake on either side of the arguement. I was merely pointing out an irony I noticed.

No matter what they say about what you did after the War, Jazuela, I'll always be your fan. I know that Papa Joe was just too...####...sexy to resist. Hypocrite? Definitely not. Lover of mustachioed Russian men? Absolutely.

[Jazuela]

Wow, that went right over my head. I'm sure it's some kind of reference to something, but I have no idea what.

But just for the record: I was only 6 during the Viet Nam war, which the government insisted (at the time) wasn't a war - it was a "military action" (would a rose by any other name smell as sweet? Would a war by any other name smell as bad?)

As for Papa Joe, he's not Russian, nor is he anyone's Papa that I'm aware of. Certainly no whelp of mine, that much I can be sure of, since I eat my young.