[Spoke]

Originally Posted by (Molly O'Hara @ Dec. 07 2004,11:17) 1. I don’t really see fan-fiction as very wrong, although we don’t exactly encourage our builders to do it. The Starwars zone that the_logos and Jazuela keep bringing up is one of the oldest in our game; it was written before I joined the staff even. But I really don’t have any problem keeping it, as long as the Lucas Company don’t approach us with a formal request. Then I would of course remove it immediately. Comment: We did actually try to contact them about it several years ago, but never got any reply. I think many muds in a similar situation have done the same, and like us settled with the thought that the company in question probably doesn't mind very much, but won't formally give their consent, out of fear of setting an unwanted precedence.

It is always amusing to read any reply from Molly to the_logos and most of the times the ones going in the other direction. Really, eventhough the self-glorification of logos in many of the posts he write may get a little tiring, he usually states his point clearly and very often gives some kind of feedback about what is being written. On the other hand, the incandecent flame wars started not with a post of the_logos, but people making a whole drama because he was adverticing and helping some kind of non-profit organization in the process. Then, when the thread was being gotten back to its original purpose by Molly, at least partially, I saw a few good-intended and full-of-feedback and support posts by the_logos (the_logos post Dec. 02 2004,14: 05) . Now, in his post of (Dec. 03 2004,14: 07) the_logos states his opinion, from his point of view, and in not a single word of his post a personal attack is issued. On the other hand, flame-starter-Molly promptly makes everything that follows to become Tokyo-while-Godzilla-is-paying-a-visit (Dec. 04 2004,04:49).

Now, after the brief summary, I think a point must be highlighted. Molly, eventhough you keep claiming that there is a difference between the two attitudes followed by the two muds in discussion, yours and Medievia, you clearlly say also that

Originally Posted by 1. I don’t really see fan-fiction as very wrong, although we don’t exactly encourage our builders to do it.

this sends the message that eventhough you see what you do as something wrong, you do not think it is very wrong, at which point you are making your personal opinion to prevalece over the intent of the copyright. Even if there are lesser and more serious ways to break a license (steal, strip credits and put own, make money out of someone else's work, ...) it does not mean that doing the lesser thing (putting the area up for the fun of the fans) is any better. Therefore, if someone calls you hypocrite for condemning the first but promoting the second, they are at least close enough in their appreciation.

Now, as for the intention of the Mud promotion. The idea of putting stories together sounds very good, I saw Angie linking it to an art board discussion for MUDs which would make a very good mix, since as Hephos pointed out, good graphic material would be needed. The whole idea seems like a nice effort, but I would still pay attention to the advice of trying to monitor wether or not it yields the desired adverticement effect. The good part about this idea, I think, is that you are trying to build it in such a way that all material used is being given by people willing to help and who have no problems with that, so, even if the results are not the ones expected (on a free internet site for example), you could probably easily take a further step and try to publish some kind of periodical issue, or a single issue with the best of what you recollect, and try an approach as the one described by Brody and the novel he wrote.

[Dulan]

-sigh-

And watch the amazing results of not handling trolls like trolls.

Meh.

Albeit, Jazuela, a bit of a case of pot calling the kettle black? You can't really preach about IP issues when the main place you play has IP issues, eh? S'really sad - of course, I'd paint it as characteristic selective memory and whatnot, but that'd require follow-up posts. Too much effort.

Oh yeah. Hey Spoke - alternate account of Mihaly's? Or did he drag you into this? Either way, you've managed to accuse Brody of things you shouldn't, as has Mihaly and Jazuela I note . Equating Brody to Medthievia is sort of insulting, neh? Unlike Molly, he actually runs a MUD based on Star Wars.

-goes back to lurking-

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (Dulan @ Dec. 07 2004,14:19) Oh yeah. Hey Spoke - alternate account of Mihaly's? Or did he drag you into this? Either way, you've managed to accuse Brody of things you shouldn't, as has Mihaly and Jazuela I note . Equating Brody to Medthievia is sort of insulting, neh? Unlike Molly, he actually runs a MUD based on Star Wars.

Dulan, I realize that you're not big on reasoning vs. flaming, but it's only insulting if you consider using IP you don't have permission to use wrong. I'm not addressing that question as I have come to recognize that there are a plethora of legitimate different opinions on the validity of the very idea of intellectual property to begin with. If you notice, I have not condemned the use of other people's IP on this thread. I don't care, as long as it doesn't involve any of Iron Realms' IP or any of Feist's IP. I, personally, would take immediate action against someone using IP I own or control without permission, but that's my choice and certainly not an imperative.

I was merely pointing out that Molly should clean her own house before acting like Medievia is doing something she's not. Brody, you'll notice, isn't slighting Medievia. (and my god, name-calling is so juvenile. "Mercthievia." Grow up.)

I understand the arguments about fan fiction, etc, but from my own POV, it doesn't matter whether someone is making money off the IP or not. I think you could also look at it from the perspective of the value of the IP being taken. The DIKU IP has very little value. Even the owners don't care enough to make an effort to protect it. If someone wants to steal a rock out of my front yard and somehow turn around and make some money out of it, I don't really care. It doesn't hurt me, except perhaps my ego. On the other hand, if someone steals my car, which has a lot of value, I'm going to be quite upset. Yes, of course these analogies (like all analogies) are not perfect. Someone using someone's IP doesn't prevent the owner from also using it, unlike stealing a car.

At the end of the day, the DIKU owners have sent a very clear message that the IP isn't worth enough to bother protecting. Lucas has sent a similar message, though probably more along the lines of, "As long as they gain no public profile they can't really damage the brand very much, so who cares." If Brody's star wars MUD became super-popular, with a couple thousand people online, you can bet Lucas would take note, regardless of whether it's non-commercial "fan fiction" or not. (And as we've already pointed out, Lucas already prohibits the use of his IP except in a private, non-commercial venue, so there's no question that MUDs using his IP are in violation of the Lucas license. Whether violating licenses is a big deal is another question.)

I don't really expect those of you who use terms like "Mercthievia" to read this with anything approaching an open mind though, as you're on a crusade and any other point of view is heresy that must be crushed. I'm willing to look at Medievia as a mud that entertains a LOT of people. I don't like seeing them ostracized, because they clearly have a fair amount of knowledge and skill at running a MUD. (and let's face it, the code, which has, no doubt, been hugely altered by now, does not make the MUD. A MUD is as much about the service you provide as the code you have. That's why the Ultima Online emulators never even approached a fraction of the playerbase of the commercial service.)
--matt

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (Spoke @ Dec. 07 2004,12:05) Originally Posted by (Molly O'Hara @ Dec. 07 2004,11:17) Comment: We did actually try to contact them about it several years ago, but never got any reply. I think many muds in a similar situation have done the same, and like us settled with the thought that the company in question probably doesn't mind very much, but won't formally give their consent, out of fear of setting an unwanted precedence.

Right, you assumed. On the other hand, you could just go read the Lucas license, where it very clearly states that you cannot use his IP unless it's non-commercial AND private. No need to make assumptions, because it prohibits it right there, in black and white.

You're obviously just going to pull out justification after justification for why you don't feel bound by the license whereas you feel Medievia should be bound by their DIKU license.
--matt

[Jazuela]

Originally Posted by (Dulan @ Dec. 07 2004,14:19) -sigh- And watch the amazing results of not handling trolls like trolls. Meh. Albeit, Jazuela, a bit of a case of pot calling the kettle black? You can't really preach about IP issues when the main place you play has IP issues, eh? S'really sad - of course, I'd paint it as characteristic selective memory and whatnot, but that'd require follow-up posts. Too much effort. Oh yeah. Hey Spoke - alternate account of Mihaly's? Or did he drag you into this? Either way, you've managed to accuse Brody of things you shouldn't, as has Mihaly and Jazuela I note . Equating Brody to Medthievia is sort of insulting, neh? Unlike Molly, he actually runs a MUD based on Star Wars. -goes back to lurking-

Dulan, what the heck does Brody have to do with this, and why are you claiming I"m taking potshots at him? This is the first time I've even mentioned his name in this thread, and I have no idea what you're talking about.

As for "pot/kettle/black" and IP issues, as far as I know, Armageddon has none. But then, since I'm not an administrator or IMM there, and I've never heard ANYONE accuse them or even question them other than you and KaVir, I have no reason to know.

Though you might believe you're really important, and though KaVir might believe he's really important, neither of your opinions mean diddly regarding any of this. I'll repeat:

I WAS POINTING OUT AN IRONIC STATEMENT MADE BY ONE PERSON WHOSE GAME HAS WITHIN IT COPYRIGHTED MATERIAL FROM ELSEWHERE, WITHOUT ACQUIRING PERMISSION TO DO SO, WHOSE STATEMENT WAS TAKING A POTSHOT AT SOMEONE ELSE WHO HAS BEEN PROVEN TO DO THE SAME THING.

I have no opinion on the matter. I don't really care if Medievia steals stuff from DIKU. I have no stake in it one way or another. I don't care if Molly got permission or not from Lucas, because I have no stake in that either. I made a comment. Shall I go back and edit the comment, and delete it like some people do, and then be accused of being a moron for deleting posts that are taken out of context for the express purpose of insulting the poster?

I'll be glad to retract the statement and let y'all return to your usual flame fests without me if it give you the hard-on you seem to be aching for.

[Angie]

Originally Posted by I'll be glad to retract the statement and let y'all return to your usual flame fests without me if it give you the hard-on you seem to be aching for.

Congratulations! You have gained this flame war a new level! It is now eligible to enter the sexual insults field.

Originally Posted by (the_logos @ Dec. 07 2004,15:45) I was merely pointing out that Molly should clean her own house before acting like Medievia is doing something she's not. Brody, you'll notice, isn't slighting Medievia. (and my god, name-calling is so juvenile. "Mercthievia." Grow up.) .... I don't really expect those of you who use terms like "Mercthievia" to read this with anything approaching an open mind though, as you're on a crusade and any other point of view is heresy that must be crushed. I'm willing to look at Medievia as a mud that entertains a LOT of people. I don't like seeing them ostracized, because they clearly have a fair amount of knowledge and skill at running a MUD.

You know Fagin had a pretty successful business going too.

Now you started a forum where the Mercthievians are welcome and anti-Mercthievian speech is censored. If you want flame free discussions with Soliel and Vyce concerning muds you know where you can take them. Don't bother trying to sell that new corporate brand of "open-minded" morals free censorship thing as appropriate. That's really gay. It's sooooo totally gay it's juvenile. Annoyingly gay and immature. A young whippersnapper like yourself shouldn't be so "closed-minded" to the wisdom of elders who have many years of experience with dealing with degenerates and neer'do'wells the likes of those who run Mercthievia.

Show some tolerance for Christ's sake.

[Jazuela]

Originally Posted by (Angie @ Dec. 07 2004,16:50) Originally Posted by I'll be glad to retract the statement and let y'all return to your usual flame fests without me if it give you the hard-on you seem to be aching for. Congratulations! You have gained this flame war a new level! It is now eligible to enter the sexual insults field.

Aww thanks Angie. I've always aspired to bring discussions to new heights. Tune in next week, when I add "insulting peoples' pets" to the fray. I have a bunch of one-liners just itching to appear.

[Estarra]

Copyright law regarding fan fiction is pretty muddy, but Stanford Law updates a pretty good primer on the subject. Start by reading the analysis of J.K. Rowlings' cease and desist letter regarding Harry Potter Adult Fan Fiction.

(Note to self: Shelve the Harry Potter Sex MUSH project.)

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (Tyche @ Dec. 07 2004,16:56) Now you started a forum where the Mercthievians are welcome and anti-Mercthievian speech is censored.   If you want flame free discussions with Soliel and Vyce concerning muds you know where you can take them.

Actually it was a forum where people who run MUDs that have achieved a minimum level of popularity were welcome, and flaming was not welcome. Turned out not to have critical mass.

Is there anybody else that'd love to see an open (ie anyone is welcome) MUD forum where flames are simply not allowed?

--matt

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by (the_logos @ Dec. 07 2004,23:46) Is there anybody else that'd love to see an open (ie anyone is welcome) MUD forum where flames are simply not allowed?

Actually the flaming had pretty much stopped here until you came back.

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (KaVir @ Dec. 07 2004,18:21) Actually the flaming had pretty much stopped here until you came back.

Not my fault that Dulan, Molly, and company feel the need to flame me. Blame the source, not the target.

[Hardestadt]

Originally Posted by (Dulan @ Dec. 08 2004,00:19) -sigh- And watch the amazing results of not handling trolls like trolls. Meh.

Dulan, you are SO not able to criticise people for trolling. Pot calling the kettle black, indeed.

-H

[Hardestadt]

Originally Posted by (the_logos @ Dec. 08 2004,03:46) Is there anybody else that'd love to see an open (ie anyone is welcome) MUD forum where flames are simply not allowed? --matt

Absolutely.

-H

Originally Posted by (the_logos @ Dec. 07 2004,17:46) Is there anybody else that'd love to see an open (ie anyone is welcome) MUD forum where flames are simply not allowed?

Hey well there's always mud-dev.

Here's a serious professional sample of serious professionals discussing something...

"In order for any profession to mature, a profession-specific nomenclature has to develop that professionals can use to talk about profession-related topics intelligently and with sufficient specificity. For instance, if somebody says "mob" in the context of our profession, I know exactly what they're talking about, even though someone from outside our profession might be thinking "pitch forks and torches." If we haven't decided on a name for the things that our profession works on (something that would seem to be a fundamental building block for any such nomenclature), then it seems to me that further discussion. is warranted to at least come to some general consensus."

"I use the term "multi-user virtual world" IF the world is a prominent aspect of the system. I am not objecting to the term
"virtual worlds", after all I did argue for it while you still wanted some other term. I am objecting to over-extending it. There are other terms too, of course..."

"I would not have guessed the discussion of the effect of newbies would migrate into a debate on definitive minutiae and use of the term "virtual world." Without a more formal taxonomy and phylogeny of "virtual worlds" within a stronger committee-based context (ie. authorative society), the discussion can wander far, far away."

"Personally, I tend toward "virtual world" when pressed. I'd like to find something better -- "virtual" equates to "hopeful" or even
"nebulous" and "world" has grandiose connotations. Not good things when talking to skeptical investors, publishers, or potential partner/customers who don't know a mob from a noob."

Serious and professional. Did I say professional? You can watch professionals argue over the definition of MUD just like 14 year old n00bies for only the price of an email. No extra charge for the 11-letter professional sounding words. Serious professional high signal stuff with nary a mention of women's breasts and no farting. Well not a whole lot of fun either.

Exerpted and names ellided to avoid embarassing the professionals.

Originally Posted by (Hardestadt @ Dec. 07 2004,21:26) Dulan, you are SO not able to criticise people for trolling. Pot calling the kettle black, indeed. Absolutely. -H

Hey I noticed you don't have an avatar.
Here's a suggestion

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (Tyche @ Dec. 07 2004,21:40) Hey well there's always mud-dev.

Yeah, unfortunately, mud-dev got hijacked by people purely interested in the largest possible commercial graphical MUDs possible quite awhile ago.

Terranova is not bad but again, they're focused almost exclusively on larger graphical worlds. I'm talking text MUDs only really.