[thehulk]

Can anybody tell me if mud adminstrators know if you are multiplaying or not? Is there a way for them to check all ISP addressess for people on-line? Are there other ways that they check for multiplaying?

[prof1515]

Yes, yes and yes. There are plenty of ways, including those you mentioned to detect multi-playing. Sure, they might not notice, but it's entirely within their ability to detect it if they want. So, if it's against a MUD's policy, don't do it. You're a guest on any MUD unless you directly own it. As a guest, you should behave like one and be respectful of the rules set down by those who own/run the game. Doing something they've asked you not to is not only rude, but deserving of an ass-kicking off of the said MUD.

Take care,

Jason

[Hajamin]

It is amazingly easy to catch multiplayers, even without checking IP's. Always entertaining to hear the excuses when they get caught though.

[KaVir]

Mud adminstrators cannot know for sure if you are multiplaying or not, but they can tell if you're connecting from the same IP address as other players. Some will act on that alone, blissfully ignorant of the fact that they're banning people for connecting from the same university or public library. Others will investigate further by monitoring your activities, trying to see if the suspect characters appear to be acting independantly or not.

A player who really wishes to multiplay will do so from multiple IP addresses, so this sort of heavy-handed "enforcement" does little to discourage the real problem. It might catch out a few clueless or careless multiplayers, but the people who'll suffer the most are those who connect through the same gateway as other players. Getting banned isn't the most fun way to discover that someone else at your university plays the same mud as you...

[Fishy]

Instead of debating multiplaying...
Players: Choose a mud where multiplaying does not help you.
Coders: Make it so that multiplaying doesn't really help... unless you plan to allow multiplaying.

On a side note: some players love to script (I did once aswell, although I got permission for my little bot). So while it might not sound like much fun for the average player but maybe there is some interest in making a game where not only is scripting allowed, but necessary to survive (or winning a fight at any rate). However I can see a problem with the learning curve for something like that, maybe if you began with some pre-written in-game scripts?

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by (Fishy @ Dec. 10 2005,14:39) Instead of debating multiplaying... Players: Choose a mud where multiplaying does not help you. Coders: Make it so that multiplaying doesn't really help...

Easier said than done. The only type of mud I can think of where multiplaying wouldn't help would be some sort of highlander-style pure PK mud, with no character advancement, and where combat could only ever be one-on-one.

You can make it so that multiplaying is less viable, but unless the mud is highly specialised it's always going to provide an advantage.

[Alexander Tau]

If a game is essentially a competition, then people with multiple characters can have a significant advantage. For games that are really about the Role Playing, and Grand Storylines, the advantage is very little.

I have always allowed people to play more than one character if they ask for permission first. When people choose to violate this rule it is only a matter of time before they get caught. As GameMasters we watch everything, and all it takes is one little slip for the truth to become known.

And I just have to say that site banning someone, without checking on the rest of your playerbase, is just sad.


Fishy,

About scripts, and other tech tools...

I have always thought that a Player has the right to 'play' anyway they want unless they (1) Somehow are ruining the fun for others or (2) Violate one of the few Game Laws. I personally am tired of things you have to do many, many, many times and do not put them in my games anyway.

I see the computer interface as a poor substitute for you really 'being there' in the Mud. The controls, even with a powerhouse Terminal like Zmud, are fairly weak and clunky. So anything you might do to make the game more fun for you, is probably ok.


A.T
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[Richter]

I've found that anything you do in a MUD, there's usually a way to tell. If you've told someone something about so-and-so's grandmother a month and two days ago, they'll find it.

And when I was a newbie to MUDding, and multiplayed before I read the helpfiles on Aetolia, I got caught and had it explained. There's aaalways a way for them to check in on you...

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by (Richter @ Dec. 24 2005,22:31) There's aaalways a way for them to check in on you...

No, there is not. Mud admin can guess, they can logs things and try to work it out, but multiplaying is not something that can be proven. As I said before mud admin can catch out a few clueless or careless multiplayers, but the people who'll suffer the most are those who connect through the same gateway as other players.

[Chayesh]

That's not entirely correct. While it is true that most codebases only show connections from the same IP (which is not always a multi) we do have ways of "testing" to see if it is truly two people who share a gateway or one person running two characters.

And as already stated, it's pretty easy to tell.

[Alexander Tau]

Guess? Are the realms of RP and not RP so different? When I have suspected people of illegal multiplay in the past I have always found it reasonably easy to be sure before I took any actions.

My favorite technique, set a watchdog that scans everything they say/tell/chat/emote. Have it look for just a couple of short phrases and spit those out to a log. 'I'm' 'It's' and the name of the original, legal, character.

Sooner or later they all tell somebody, and this gets the vast majority of them when they do.

There are other steps besides a site ban of course, deletion of all characters is pretty painful.


A.T
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[KaVir]

Originally Posted by (Alexander Tau @ Dec. 25 2005,02:41) Sooner or later they all tell somebody, and this gets the vast majority of them when they do.

Once again, as I said, you can catch out the clueless and the careless. But you won't catch a careful multiplayer, and you're only fooling yourself if you believe otherwise.

[Alexander Tau]

I agree with you if we are talking about a H&S game where you can play and not have to interact much. Which as far as I know are the kinds of game you favor.

But in an RP enviroment things are different. It is a rare person who can get away from it for long if you have an active Staff who pays attention. It takes people skills, along with tech support of course, but few people can keep it up for that long.

All it takes is the wrong phrase, or even just how they structure their sentances to figure it out. When people are surprised, or challenged, they tend to revert back to their normal behavior.

Now multiplay has never been a big problem on my games because I have always allowed it with permission. Most people would rather ask than risk loseing their Characters. But there are always a few who wish to flout the Rules.

I remember catching one because in a moment of stress he let go with an particular exclaimation that I knew was a favorite of another character. This got me looking, and in a short time the pattern of logons/logoffs between the two characters cinched the deal. I put a full log on both characters and the proof was not long in comming.

Now I also grant that most do not have my knowledge of people (I have been a counselor for years) and that would make the job a whole lot tougher.

So perhaps in your experience you have run across a lot of people who are very skilled in deception and have managed to get away with it for a long time. My experience is different.



A.T
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[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (Alexander Tau @ Dec. 30 2005,12:17) But in an RP enviroment things are different. It is a rare person who can get away from it for long if you have an active Staff who pays attention. It takes people skills, along with tech support of course, but few people can keep it up for that long. So perhaps in your experience you have run across a lot of people who are very skilled in deception and have managed to get away with it for a long time. My experience is different.

Given that the only ones you know about are the ones you catch, you have no way of actually judging how effective you've been at catching multplayers. Is it possible to catch many of them? Sure. Is it possible to know what percentage of them you've caught? No.

--matt

[Threshold]

A few thoughts on multiplaying:

1) I generally prefer allowing it, but only with permission so at least you know who is who and can help protect against abuses. Of course, even with this allowance, some people will choose to multiplay without getting permission. That is where the remaining thoughts come into play.

2) It is always easy to catch the stupid and the careless. They are almost not even discussing. On a game where multiplaying is allowed with permission, a huge percentage of those who choose to multiplay WITHOUT permission fall into the stupid and careless category. There is a good correlation between people who break game rules and people who are stupid. The intelligent gamer who also likes to break the rules is far less common that your general numbskull wanker who breaks rules because he or she is too stupid to understand that rules generally make for a better game.

3) Of the remaining types of "illegal" multiplayers, it is indeed hard to catch them... in the short run. But in the long run, it is once again EASY to catch them. Why? Because everyone makes mistakes, and eventually they will say the wrong thing to the wrong person, or do the wrong thing, or trip a log of some sort, etc.

4) There is a certain elegant beauty to the fact that getting away with multiplaying is easy in the short run, and hard in the long run. The longer the cheater plays his/her characters, the more he has to lose. So when the person DOES eventually get caught, they have much more to lose in terms of characters, time investment, etc.

[xotl]

Originally Posted by (KaVir @ Dec. 24 2005,18:01) Originally Posted by (Richter @ Dec. 24 2005,22:31) There's aaalways a way for them to check in on you... No, there is not.  Mud admin can guess, they can logs things and try to work it out, but multiplaying is not something that can be proven.  As I said before mud admin can catch out a few clueless or careless multiplayers, but the people who'll suffer the most are those who connect through the same gateway as other players.

If I suspect someone's multiplaying, I sometimes give them a phone call when both accounts are logged on and talk to both of them. Helps to have a free long distance package.

It's actually quite a fun thing to do if you like people, neat to hear their voice, and they hear that you're a human being too and not some sophisticated AI program they are out to find loopholes in.

It's worked so far, but the active playerbase at Accursed Lands is about 50 a day, 100 a week right now. We're going through a dev cycle.

You could also fly out and knock on their door.

[Thore]

I used to play on a LAN with a friend and was once asked about multiplaying (which is illegal on the mud). We were given a simple test of saying the alphabet at the same time. I know it wouldn't be _that_ hard to fake it as a single player, but if you're not prepared I think it's an effective way to catch people.

I've only really played one mud but I don't see why multiplaying would ever be allowed. Don't most muds contain different races 'n such? Wouldn't it be detrimental to allow players to be logged onto a character of each race? Or even two of the same race... warring factions etc. Just doesn't make sense to me I guess. =)

The mud I play at has instated a policy of LAN registration. So if you know you're playing on the same LAN as someone you have to submit character names and to which players the belong to, this has helped a ton. And I'm sure most game adminstrators wouldn't be too hasty to ban an entire IP because they suspect one person of cheating. I assume most game owners would want to keep players and at least investigate the situation a little more.

[Alexander Tau]

Originally Posted by I've only really played one mud but I don't see why multiplaying would ever be allowed.

There are a wide variety of styles of Muds, many are based on competition but many are not. It really depends on how the owners of the game want to see it played.

Many games have a somewhat limited amount of content so the Staff does not want to see someone fly thorough it all too fast and then get bored and quit. Others want to see each player compete equally with everyone else and they feel that multiplay gets in the way of that.

Personally I make games so that players can come in and and much as possible play in a way that makes them happy. It is the same sort of issue with things like Bots. Many games make them illegal as well, I do not. If it makes someone happy to have some code run their character and they enjoy that, fine with me. The line for me is hit when what one player does somehow ruins the fun for others.

There is a lot of ego tied up in most games. For many people it is the only time in their life that they are totally in control of something and quite often it goes to their heads. But on the flip side there are also plenty of games run by people who want to see their players enjoy themselves and who put a lot of time and effort into making a game that is fun to play.

For me I see people with real RP skills as a rare thing, and if someone like that wants to play more than one character I am more than happy to allow them to do so.

The real problem that can happen with multiplay is when someone uses a secondary character to do things which violate the spirit of the game. As you mentioned many games have factions, Clans, or some other kind of grouping. If your main character is a member of one group and you make a second character simply to inflitrate a rival group and sabotage them it tends to cause hurt feelings.

When a player(s) get their feeling hurt in this way they have a tendency to quit playing. Because of this potential most games prohibit multiplay. So like many things in life, a few dishonest people ruin it for everyone.



A.T
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