[the_logos]

Originally Posted by KaVir Graphical muds are still a fair way behind text-based muds, except for the actual graphics and sound. The good old "book vs movie" comparison still holds true.

I'm not sure what you mean by the book vs. movie comparison. Books are not inherently better than movies or vice-versa, nor are they exploring the same space. Film is better at some things than books and books are better at some things than film. It's an apples and oranges comparison, much more so than text vs. graphical MUDs which are, fundamentally, the same thing just with a different front-end (whereas books and movies are fundamentally different mediums).

As far as text vs. graphical MUDs go, I would have agreed with you 5 years ago. Now, I'm not so sure. Few text MUDs attempt anything that is anything but a re-tread of what's already been done, while some graphical MUDs are pushing boundaries by opening up to new demographics (Club Penguin), taking advantage of the scale of playerbases in a way no text MUD has ever had the opportunity to (Eve Online), tying together real-world and virtual-worlds in ways no text MUD ever did (Second Life, Entropia Universe), and so on. When people talk about advances in text MUDs though, I mainly just hear the same concepts being thrown about that were a decade ago.

I'm not trying to bash on text MUDs (obviously!) but I just don't see too many people actually trying to make more than the tiniest of incremental leaps forward in text MUDs these days.

--matt

[Newworlds]

Bah, Logos you lack faith friend. And Aeron, Good Lord, do you even play Text Muds or are you playing WoW all day talking about Guitar Hero while you kill off a Level 25,000 Dragon?

Let me break it down for you all a little more clearly. GUI Muds will Never replace Text Muds and Text Muds will never replace GUI Muds but we are in competition and we can gain our fair share of the market. How you ask? Here are some ways.

Roleplay vs. Hack/slash
1. Textual interaction on a GUI game. Someone claimed GUI games have textualization which equates to roleplay on a Text Mud. Bah, this is not Roleplay, never was and never will be. Some GUI games "claim" roleplay but they will never achieve it anywhere near an RP Text Mud. Frankly, the market doesn't want it as shown in who plays the games. I guaranty you can't find an Gui Mud that is anything comparative to the environment of an RPE Text Mud.

2. Voice chat. HAHAHA, that is worse than running IM while playing a mud and talking about your dinner or the latest movie while your adventuring. Again, will NEVER be roleplay. What are these people going to do, pretend they are talking in Elven? Let's be serious. Voice chat was just introduced as a way to not have to be on the cell phone while gaming.

3. The players that play GUI Muds are not and never will be looking for roleplay on those games. They are not looking for imagination, they are looking for the bells and whistles of the graphics and sound. Text Muds will never compete or draw people looking for such things except as shown below.

---------
Market Base.

Who are we really trying to bring to Text Muds? I don't know about you, but NW doesn't care about the 12 year old that couldn't roleplay out of a 3rd grade play, but can blow the hell out of a Demi Lord with his prototype Uzi Plazma Rifle.

I'm looking for the more mature audience that wants an in depth experience different than Gui Muds. I'm looking for those that seek to immerse into imagination and fantasy.

Who are these people? True gamers, possibly D&D style table top gamers. Readers of Books, imaginative people, those that attend Shakespeare Festivals, but more over it is people that do not want to or cannot install WoW's Huge Prog on their computer which brings us to item number 4.

4. GUI GAMES are rarely if ever playable from a schools, librarys, or work environments. THIS is owned by our domain of Text Muds. Whether you are a hack/slash Text Mud or a Roleplay Enforced Text Mud. Your target market are people on these computers. Go get them. No matter what Gui Muds do, they will never capture this market like we can. And like most who have played Gui Muds and find themselves hooked on Text Muds, they will then bring the Text Mud home and play.

So, all told, concentrate on target group 4. And while we will never come close to holding a market like the GUI games have now, bear in mind, None of them have lasted as long as we have.

GOOD LUCK and SUCCESSFUL HUNTING!

[Aeran]

Originally Posted by Newworlds Bah, Logos you lack faith friend. And Aeron, Good Lord, do you even play Text Muds or are you playing WoW all day talking about Guitar Hero while you kill off a Level 25,000 Dragon?

Who knows . Is that how you in general see WoW players(and I assume other graphical mmrpg players as well)?

Let me break it down for you all a little more clearly. GUI Muds will Never replace Text Muds and Text Muds will never replace GUI Muds but we are in competition and we can gain our fair share of the market. How you ask? Here are some ways.

I agree that GUI Muds won't replace text Muds. What I mean is that they'll simply continue dominate them. We can laugh at voice chat but you need to remember that these things are in their beginning and it will become more advanced.

Your three comparisons are all related to roleplay. While roleplay can be good to encourage is it really something that draws a lot of players? You say roleplay on these mmrpgs is poor, but is that really the case?

Looking at US Realm Stats - WarcraftRealms.com I noticed that, assuming I read the table correctly, the roleplaying realms of WoW are quite popular. It is possible what they are calling roleplay there is some silly odd "roleplay". Still I would be careful with underestimating them.

About case (4) I am not sure if targetting that group is something to be that very proud of. These are people who play text MUDs because they can't use any other alternative without getting caught gaming on work time, or because their computers are too poor to run any "advanced" games. The MUD might be their last resort.

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by Newworlds Bah, Logos you lack faith friend.

I do indeed lack faith. I'm more into reason!

Let me break it down for you all a little more clearly. GUI Muds will Never replace Text Muds and Text Muds will never replace GUI Muds

Was that under dispute? I don't think anyone was suggesting that text-based MUDs would die out. They clearly provide something that graphical MUDs do not (ie a text-based environment).

Roleplay vs. Hack/slash 1. Textual interaction on a GUI game. Someone claimed GUI games have textualization which equates to roleplay on a Text Mud. Bah, this is not Roleplay, never was and never will be. Some GUI games "claim" roleplay but they will never achieve it anywhere near an RP Text Mud. Frankly, the market doesn't want it as shown in who plays the games. I guaranty you can't find an Gui Mud that is anything comparative to the environment of an RPE Text Mud.

That's true. The few thousand people who are interested in a hardcore roleplaying environment as I'm guessing you define it are probably better off in text MUDs (or even better off in pen & paper roleplaying campaigns or good LARPs).

2. Voice chat. HAHAHA, that is worse than running IM while playing a mud and talking about your dinner or the latest movie while your adventuring. Again, will NEVER be roleplay. What are these people going to do, pretend they are talking in Elven? Let's be serious. Voice chat was just introduced as a way to not have to be on the cell phone while gaming.

You're pretty focused on roleplaying, but roleplaying is only one aspect of MUDs, and is hardly the end-all, be-all. It's just a feature that can be implemented/encouraged to a greater or lesser degree (like combat or fishing or gambling or anything else really).

Further, I'll point out that just as people may pretend to be talking in Elven while speaking in English, players pretend to be communicating in Elven while typing in English (or Finnish or whatnot) on text MUDs.

I also get the idea that you've never actually participated in the activities you deride. Voice chat is used primarily as a tool to efficiently and quickly organize large groups of people. Text MUDs rarely have enough players to require 40 players to work closely together in real-time. Running a high-end raid in WoW without voice chat is painful.

3. The players that play GUI Muds are not and never will be looking for roleplay on those games. They are not looking for imagination, they are looking for the bells and whistles of the graphics and sound.

You're definitely incorrect there. Many of them are looking for roleplaying. The definition of roleplaying differs from person to person though and what you consider roleplaying is not what someone else may consider roleplaying.

And they are definitely looking for an imaginative environment.

Who are these people? True gamers,

"True gamers." Anyone who plays games is a true gamer as far as I'm concerned, whether that game is a text MUD, Monopoly, or Bejeweled. The idea that someone who plays an RP game is more of a gamer than someone playing Go is completely arbitrary in my opinion.

4. GUI GAMES are rarely if ever playable from a schools, librarys, or work environments. THIS is owned by our domain of Text Muds. Whether you are a hack/slash Text Mud or a Roleplay Enforced Text Mud. Your target market are people on these computers. Go get them.

What? Have you ever spent time actually watching people play in libraries or schools? I'm guessing not! Runescape and AdventureQuest/Dragonfable (the latter two aren't MUDs/MMOs but present themselves as one) are overwhelmingly present there.

Text MUDs that don't require a client install have an advantage over graphical MMOs that do have a client install, but some of the most popular MMOs do not require an install and are quite playable from libraries, schools, work, and so on. That trend is only going to increase as well with things like the (admittedly probably somewhat weak at first) upcoming Flash 10's inclusion of 3d capabilities.

No matter what Gui Muds do, they will never capture this market like we can.

They can and did years ago.

--matt

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by Aeran Who knows . Is that how you in general see WoW players(and I assume other graphical mmrpg players as well)?

Yes. I have yet to play one (And have played through most of the more popular (Ultima Online, WoW, Elf Quest) that shows me anything but hack/slash Halo style gamers on them.

Originally Posted by Aeran About case (4) I am not sure if targetting that group is something to be that very proud of. These are people who play text MUDs because they can't use any other alternative without getting caught gaming on work time, or because their computers are too poor to run any "advanced" games. The MUD might be their last resort.

Very few computers lack the ability to play advanced games. And what is the difference between "serfing the web" from these locations and playing a mud in spare time?

My main argument is that I laugh at the roleplay and imagination of players of Gui Muds just as quickly as they laugh at the lack of graphics on Text Muds. It is really that simple. But despite the laughter, both games have their appeal and unappeal, pros and cons. And both are viable entertainment.

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by the_logos Further, I'll point out that just as people may pretend to be talking in Elven while speaking in English, players pretend to be communicating in Elven while typing in English (or Finnish or whatnot) on text MUDs.

You can't be serious with this statement. Please tell me a Gui Mud with voice activation where people are talking in elfish languages or roleplaying over the voice channel. I'd really love to sit in on that.

Originally Posted by the_logos Text MUDs rarely have enough players to require 40 players to work closely together in real-time. Running a high-end raid in WoW without voice chat is painful.

Perhaps on WoW. I assure you that on NW we have had groups of 5, 10, and 15 regularly and armies of 20 to 40 numerous times for massive adventures, story driven events, and raids. It is chaotic and wild and the players on NW call it "the choas of battle"

Originally Posted by the_logos You're definitely incorrect there. Many of them are looking for roleplaying. The definition of roleplaying differs from person to person though and what you consider roleplaying is not what someone else may consider roleplaying. And they are definitely looking for an imaginative environment.

This is a good point and perhaps I was a bit hasty on that. I'm likely slightly jaded in that I have looked for RP on such environments and found little to none. I was invited to be a lead programmer on a new Gui Mud built entirely on programming. I declined and after 2 1/2 years and $250,000.00, the project closed when the financers couldn't build the playerbase. Effectively none of the teenage players wanted Forced RP.

Originally Posted by the_logos What? Have you ever spent time actually watching people play in libraries or schools? I'm guessing not! Runescape and AdventureQuest/Dragonfable (the latter two aren't MUDs/MMOs but present themselves as one) are overwhelmingly present there.

Yes and have never seen these types of games played there. The only games I've seen at libraries and schools are Java script driven run from Internet Explorer. Perhaps these types you are referring to?

Originally Posted by the_logos Text MUDs that don't require a client install have an advantage over graphical MMOs that do have a client install, but some of the most popular MMOs do not require an install and are quite playable from libraries, schools, work, and so on.

Name them. Show me the Gui Mud that is playable without an install. I'll be happy to check it out. Again, I maintain that the only ones playable from these locations are Internet Explorer (java) style games.

The reason for this is that powerful GUI games need localized graphics/sound/movie clips, to run. Thousands of Megabytes of data that you can't run effectively through a net stream. While Gui and Text Muds are very similar in O/S operation and data streaming, without the graphics localized you have to stream them to the client. This is a huge bottleneck and would mean that every graphic image or sound you see would have to stream to your client (in this case internet exployer).

[Newworlds]

While we're on this topic, I wanted to add another reason why I enjoy Text Mud World over Gui Mud World and that is the diversification of choices in games. There are literally hundreds of different Muds to choose from and some very unique and creative ones. Far more so than will every be inherited on the GUI side of things. The reason again is that GUI games are very difficult and expensive build, market, and run. You can't maintain one with a 10 player base.

The ability to find so many choices in the Text Mud Realm I think is very imporant.

I just take a quick grab of exciting games here like Archae, God Wars II, Threshold, 4 Dimensions, Armeggedon, Zombie, Dark Forces, Toril, 2 Towers, and others and you see very different, yet compelling environments. And there are hundreds more.

Game On TEXT MUDDERS!

[Ide]

Originally Posted by Newworlds You can't be serious with this statement. Please tell me a Gui Mud with voice activation where people are talking in elfish languages or roleplaying over the voice channel. I'd really love to sit in on that.

That's kind of not the point though. People on RP muds don't type in Elvish, do they?

Name them. Show me the Gui Mud that is playable without an install. I'll be happy to check it out. Again, I maintain that the only ones playable from these locations are Internet Explorer (java) style games.

Don't forget about Shockwave and Flash, though. For example:

Free MMORPG at Maidmarian.com - Free Massive Multiplayer Online Web Games

While Gui and Text Muds are very similar in O/S operation and data streaming, without the graphics localized you have to stream them to the client. This is a huge bottleneck and would mean that every graphic image or sound you see would have to stream to your client (in this case internet exployer).

This simply is not as a high a barrier to entry as it once was -- see the above link.

While we're on this topic, I wanted to add another reason why I enjoy Text Mud World over Gui Mud World and that is the diversification of choices in games. There are literally hundreds of different Muds to choose from and some very unique and creative ones. Far more so than will every be inherited on the GUI side of things.

I don't see why this necessarily is the case. There is nothing stopping the pool of graphical muds from diversifying more than text muds. In fact I would argue that with the public profile of graphical games so much larger than text games, more talent will flow to graphical muds, and text muds will be less diverse due to lack of development.

Currently I think text muds have two main distinguishing features -- they are text based (duh), and a small team can create an awesome text mud without a lot of resources. It seems much harder to do the latter with a graphical mud, though surely the tools for that will improve in the future.

Nevertheless I think for people who like to read, a developer on their own could create a really unique and fun game with a text mud, and this is what we should stress as the 'strength' of the text mud medium, not that a text game is better at RP or whatever.

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by Newworlds You can't be serious with this statement. Please tell me a Gui Mud with voice activation where people are talking in elfish languages or roleplaying over the voice channel. I'd really love to sit in on that.

As Ide said, neither are people typing in elvish languages. They're typing in English. No different from speaking in English from that perspective.

Perhaps on WoW. I assure you that on NW we have had groups of 5, 10, and 15 regularly and armies of 20 to 40 numerous times for massive adventures, story driven events, and raids. It is chaotic and wild and the players on NW call it "the choas of battle"

Yes, of course you CAN do it without voice chat. It's more efficient with voice chat. It's why soldiers in real battles prefer voice over typing to each other.

Yes and have never seen these types of games played there. The only games I've seen at libraries and schools are Java script driven run from Internet Explorer. Perhaps these types you are referring to?

Yes, exactly. MMOs like Runescape, which is the most popular MMORPG in the western world.

Name them. Show me the Gui Mud that is playable without an install. I'll be happy to check it out. Again, I maintain that the only ones playable from these locations are Internet Explorer (java) style games.

You're asking me to point you to GUI MUDs playable without an install and then admitting that you're familiar with them. I'm confused. Again, I'll point you to Runescape, which is THE most popular MMORPG in Europe and North America and is playable from libraries, schools, etc. It's not as if using a particular rendering or client technology changes whether something is a MUD or not.

The reason for this is that powerful GUI games need localized graphics/sound/movie clips, to run. Thousands of Megabytes of data that you can't run effectively through a net stream. While Gui and Text Muds are very similar in O/S operation and data streaming, without the graphics localized you have to stream them to the client. This is a huge bottleneck and would mean that every graphic image or sound you see would have to stream to your client (in this case internet exployer).

Yes, I'm aware of how this works. I run a company that's developing 3d MMOs (and one that's developing text MUDs). Again, Runescape is the best example here, as what you describe is exactly what they do. Same with Sherwood RPG, Club Penguin, Habbo, etc. Also worth pointing out that Raph Koster's company, Areae, is using Flash as their initial rendering technology for Metaplace.

Betting on ubiquitous access as some sort of advantage for text MUDs is a bad bet. 5 years ago, not too bad a bet. Today, bad bet as Flash, Java, and Shockwave MMOs are only going to proliferate in the face of the absolutely massive success of some of the titles I've mentioned.

--matt

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by Ide Currently I think text muds have two main distinguishing features -- they are text based (duh), and a small team can create an awesome text mud without a lot of resources. It seems much harder to do the latter with a graphical mud, though surely the tools for that will improve in the future. Nevertheless I think for people who like to read, a developer on their own could create a really unique and fun game with a text mud, and this is what we should stress as the 'strength' of the text mud medium, not that a text game is better at RP or whatever.

I completely agree with that. The only real advantage text MUDs have is that the "rendering" technology hasn't changed in a loongggg time and the content is very easy to create. This has been driven home to me every day for the last 2 years (during which most of my time has been running the team creating Earth Eternal). Text is freaking easy and cheap to build in by comparison. No worries about crap like seams and normal maps and video memory space, etc. It makes me sad how much less we can accomplish even given nearly a $1 million budget than we could on 10% of that in text.

--matt

[lovechiefs]

Your comments and specifically the one about voice comm are part of the reasons why MUDs have a hard time attracting players other than MUD addicts.
MUD owners need to be open to new ideas,new features.Voice comm are very important to clans/guilds. The only way MUDs will get new players and attract players from Normal mmorpgs is by adding features such as graphic images,voice comm and not requiring roleplaying or creating secondary worlds for non rp players

Originally Posted by Newworlds Bah, Logos you lack faith friend. And Aeron, Good Lord, do you even play Text Muds or are you playing WoW all day talking about Guitar Hero while you kill off a Level 25,000 Dragon? Let me break it down for you all a little more clearly. GUI Muds will Never replace Text Muds and Text Muds will never replace GUI Muds but we are in competition and we can gain our fair share of the market. How you ask? Here are some ways. Roleplay vs. Hack/slash 1. Textual interaction on a GUI game. Someone claimed GUI games have textualization which equates to roleplay on a Text Mud. Bah, this is not Roleplay, never was and never will be. Some GUI games "claim" roleplay but they will never achieve it anywhere near an RP Text Mud. Frankly, the market doesn't want it as shown in who plays the games. I guaranty you can't find an Gui Mud that is anything comparative to the environment of an RPE Text Mud. 2. Voice chat. HAHAHA, that is worse than running IM while playing a mud and talking about your dinner or the latest movie while your adventuring. Again, will NEVER be roleplay. What are these people going to do, pretend they are talking in Elven? Let's be serious. Voice chat was just introduced as a way to not have to be on the cell phone while gaming. 3. The players that play GUI Muds are not and never will be looking for roleplay on those games. They are not looking for imagination, they are looking for the bells and whistles of the graphics and sound. Text Muds will never compete or draw people looking for such things except as shown below. --------- Market Base. Who are we really trying to bring to Text Muds? I don't know about you, but NW doesn't care about the 12 year old that couldn't roleplay out of a 3rd grade play, but can blow the hell out of a Demi Lord with his prototype Uzi Plazma Rifle. I'm looking for the more mature audience that wants an in depth experience different than Gui Muds. I'm looking for those that seek to immerse into imagination and fantasy. Who are these people? True gamers, possibly D&D style table top gamers. Readers of Books, imaginative people, those that attend Shakespeare Festivals, but more over it is people that do not want to or cannot install WoW's Huge Prog on their computer which brings us to item number 4. 4. GUI GAMES are rarely if ever playable from a schools, librarys, or work environments. THIS is owned by our domain of Text Muds. Whether you are a hack/slash Text Mud or a Roleplay Enforced Text Mud. Your target market are people on these computers. Go get them. No matter what Gui Muds do, they will never capture this market like we can. And like most who have played Gui Muds and find themselves hooked on Text Muds, they will then bring the Text Mud home and play. So, all told, concentrate on target group 4. And while we will never come close to holding a market like the GUI games have now, bear in mind, None of them have lasted as long as we have. GOOD LUCK and SUCCESSFUL HUNTING!

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by lovechiefs Your comments and specifically the one about voice comm are part of the reasons why MUDs have a hard time attracting players other than MUD addicts. MUD owners need to be open to new ideas,new features.Voice comm are very important to clans/guilds. The only way MUDs will get new players and attract players from Normal mmorpgs is by adding features such as graphic images,voice comm and not requiring roleplaying or creating secondary worlds for non rp players

Wrong. 1 out of 5 players (20 percent) came to NW from Graphic Games.

And what kind of comment is: The only way Text Muds will attract players from Gui Muds is to become a Gui Mud. *chuckle*

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by the_logos I completely agree with that. The only real advantage text MUDs have is that the "rendering" technology hasn't changed in a loongggg time and the content is very easy to create. This has been driven home to me every day for the last 2 years (during which most of my time has been running the team creating Earth Eternal). Text is freaking easy and cheap to build in by comparison. No worries about crap like seams and normal maps and video memory space, etc. It makes me sad how much less we can accomplish even given nearly a $1 million budget than we could on 10% of that in text. --matt

If you are talking about rendering only, you still need the engine on the client side. If not you are spewing rendered images in a stream. You aren't going to get a 350k Rendering engine. AND you aren't going to be able to play DOOM style rendering however. Because you keep spouting about Runescape and its popularity, I'll happily go check it out for the ability to play without a client and no downloads.