[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by Threshold Not to mention the fact that every other MUDder thinks he/she can make their own MUD.

This is true and is similar to anyone thinking they can write a book or in our day of HD Cameras for mere thousands, every college student thinks they can make a movie. Unfortunately, thinking you can make a movie or write a book and actually making a good movie or book are hugely different as shown in a review of any film festival and the millions of books rejected by publishers.

Just go see "The American" for an example of complete crap produced by a big production company and an A-list actor.

[Elvarlyn]

Originally Posted by Newworlds This is true and is similar to anyone thinking they can write a book or in our day of HD Cameras for mere thousands, every college student thinks they can make a movie. Unfortunately, thinking you can make a movie or write a book and actually making a good movie or book are hugely different as shown in a review of any film festival and the millions of books rejected by publishers. Just go see "The American" for an example of complete crap produced by a big production company and an A-list actor.

Yes, except the difference is:

Imagine if when you rocked up to your local cinema, every wannabe college student could put up a poster for their movie alongside the Hollywood blockbusters and screen it.

[Aeran]

Originally Posted by Newworlds Just go see "The American" for an example of complete crap produced by a big production company and an A-list actor.

I haven't seen the movie but it seems to get decent score on The American (2010).

Does getting a book rejected by a publisher actually suggest the book is bad? Would e.g EA reject one of the top MUDs if it tried to be published?

[Milawe]

Originally Posted by Aeran Does getting a book rejected by a publisher actually suggest the book is bad? Would e.g EA reject one of the top MUDs if it tried to be published?

EA would definitely reject one of the top MUDs if it tried to get published simply because the numbers aren't there. Even with EA's marketing power, I'm not sure that a mud could pull more than a couple thousand players at a time. (Unfortunately, you gotta know how to read to play MUDs.)

And some of the top authors have had their first books rejected over 100 times before they get published because the publishing world operates in a very specific way. Most manuscripts are rejected without ever having been read. This creates the necessity for agents who represent good manuscripts and go to the publishers to get them published. It's a pretty inefficient way of doing things, and of course, the person who loses out on their cut to the agent is the author, not the publisher.

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by Aeran I haven't seen the movie but it seems to get decent score on The American (2010).

Go see it. You will laugh (because you think it's a comedy), cry (because you find out it's not), and hurl (because you wasted 10 bucks).

Originally Posted by Aeran Does getting a book rejected by a publisher actually suggest the book is bad?

Yes. At least bad for marketing. Won't bring the numbers, uninteresting to the market at the present time.

[Newworlds]

It seems I need to clarify my post about books and movie production and how it relates to MUD creation. My point was not that only professionals can write a book or create a movie. My point is that it takes a lot of commitment, experience, and talent to do so with quality.

[Aeran]

Originally Posted by Newworlds It seems I need to clarify my post about books and movie production and how it relates to MUD creation. My point was not that only professionals can write a book or create a movie. My point is that it takes a lot of commitment, experience, and talent to do so with quality.

So MUDs have more developers than the graphical RPGs. Sounds like a good thing. Not everyone has to be at the top of the skill level.

I think what should be worried about more than low quality MUDs is how projects like MudStandards break down. It is projects like that that move the games forward.

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by Aeran So MUDs have more developers than the graphical RPGs. Sounds like a good thing. Not everyone has to be at the top of the skill level. I think what should be worried about more than low quality MUDs is how projects like MudStandards break down. It is projects like that that move the games forward.

This is true. Having a standard and minimum quality is a good thing. As for more developers, I would say not, but probably more singular projects, yes.

[Lasher]

Originally Posted by Milawe EA would definitely reject one of the top MUDs if it tried to get published simply because the numbers aren't there. Even with EA's marketing power, I'm not sure that a mud could pull more than a couple thousand players at a time. (Unfortunately, you gotta know how to read to play MUDs.)

Jagex (the makers of Runescape) approached EA and other large publishers and didn't get very far:

Jagex: We Had to Self-Publish | GamePolitics

[shadowfyr]

Originally Posted by Molly I've been sceptical to statistics ever since i read a book titled 'How to lie with statistics'. It seems people - politicians in particular - can and do twist statistics to fit whatever they prefer them to show.

If you want to get technical, the facts can't and don't lie, unless someone is doing something stupid, like collecting them wrong. Most polls are a bit like this, intentionally creating ambiguity with the answer they *don't* want, then presenting it, when ever possible, to people in areas where they feel that its likely to a) get responders with the *right* answer, and b) little or no responders who are willing to give the ambiguous one. This is often seen either in a skewing of the poll in favor of the *right* answer, or a large number of people in the "I don't know" category, due to it being the least offensive response, for anyone not already biased towards giving a thumbs up to the poller's intentional distortion on the issue. Its also why online polls are completely idiotic, since you can't, usually, prevent people you *don't* want to have answer it showing up in huge numbers to screw up your pre-intended result. lol

That said.. What you are dealing with is a bit like Books vs. TV vs. videos, with obvious differences. Used to be, a lot of people owned a few favorite books, you went to very specific places to find them, and wanting something obscure was a good thing. More to the point, you didn't rely on some "top 20" book shelf in Walmart to pick a good book. TV came on the scene and "everyone" bought TVs, though many people also still read books. However, at the same time, you started getting "top 20" lists/shelves in pretty much any store big enough to also have a magazine rack, and true enthusiasts **don't buy from those**. Everyone else... picks up the latest bit of drivel from the "big names". Muds have such "lists", but they don't have their product scattered every damn place people look, trying to "sell" those. So, unlike books, you don't see a whole lot of people running around looking to pick up some "light mudding". lol WOW is the TV of the game world. Its accessible to every one, you don't really need to spend anything, other than time, on it, and a lot of people that would never spend the basic time needed to do newbie quests in a mud *will* play WOW. Some of the newer ones get more like the video store. You buy what you want, when you want, how you want, and you are not semi-passively leveling to the max over 48 hours, like you have in WOW. Heck, ones like Eve Online, you can't do much more than get shot flying through a bad neighborhood in 48 hours.

Then you have things like SL, when it worked well, or when you are on a grid that manages better than Linden does. You get to write the story, design the theme, dress up any way you want, etc. Its books + TV + video store + amateur pron, all rolled into one, and the fact that it does the first "a lot" more poorly, due to lack of resources going to helping do that, than any mud can, its **still** going to be more accessible than looking for the 1942 edition of "Some book I want", written by Somedude, of which only one copy is known to exist, in Stix, Middleofnowhere, Zimbabway. Unfortunately, for most people, muds *are* that book, and its not going to change when the next generation of virtual worlds comes out, and that turns out to *include* something like MUD/MUSH code, as a means to do the thing SL, and the like, do only barely, right now. Why spend time looking for a good book, if you can buy a bad one easier, or join up with like minded people and write one? Better yet, why read, if you can watch the video, as almost ever high school student has almost always thought, every time they got an assignment. lol

I am not sure how you solve the problem, without getting people in the industry to admit it hasn't become some fringe at this point, or giving up on pure text, and making WOW II, instead.

[Newworlds]

Wow, that was like reading a book, reading that post.

Originally Posted by shadowfyr I am not sure how you solve the problem, without getting people in the industry to admit it hasn't become some fringe at this point, or giving up on pure text, and making WOW II, instead.

Here's the difference. MUDs have longevity. I think much moreso than WoW. WoW will be gone as the novelty wears out, just like others that have come and fade as time goes on and a new fad comes around. Many more people have cell phones and text eachother and text on Facebook than play WoW and all other graphic online games combined.

Think about that and how to tap into this texting market.

[shadowfyr]

Originally Posted by Newworlds Wow, that was like reading a book, reading that post. Here's the difference. MUDs have longevity. I think much moreso than WoW. WoW will be gone as the novelty wears out, just like others that have come and fade as time goes on and a new fad comes around. Many more people have cell phones and text eachother and text on Facebook than play WoW and all other graphic online games combined. Think about that and how to tap into this texting market.

No, WoW will vanish because the company can't make money off it any more. Look at EQ I. There are servers that, up to the point, run a near complete emulation of the original *and* a number of them that have created entirely new content, not to mention some that have even added in their own graphics. Project EQ and EQEmulator The original isn't even dead yet, but there are servers running that both emulate and extend much of its content. If WoW dies it will be because no one has emulated the server, and like others, some of them with far better server designs, the box in the shelf will become nothing more than a collectible, for obscure people that like software they can't even *ever* run any more.

But, if someone does... What most MMOs lack is a simple way to set them up, for your own use. EQEmulator pretty much removes that barrier. Without that barrier, there is no justification for claiming that MMOs are "just fads", unlike MUDs, and won't still be around quite a ways into the future.

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by shadowfyr No, WoW will vanish because the company can't make money off it any more. Look at EQ I. There are servers that, up to the point, run a near complete emulation of the original *and* a number of them that have created entirely new content, not to mention some that have even added in their own graphics... What most MMOs lack is a simple way to set them up, for your own use. EQEmulator pretty much removes that barrier. Without that barrier, there is no justification for claiming that MMOs are "just fads", unlike MUDs, and won't still be around quite a ways into the future.

From 1.5 Million players to 1,500 on emulation? Yeah, EQ is pretty much dead. That would be like NWA going from 150 players to 1/10th of a player. I'd call that permadeath.

[shadowfyr]

Originally Posted by Newworlds From 1.5 Million players to 1,500 on emulation? Yeah, EQ is pretty much dead. That would be like NWA going from 150 players to 1/10th of a player. I'd call that permadeath.

1506 "average", 3882 "max", if you want to be technical, not including servers that are "unregistered" or "private", and none of which indicate how long they have been around. This is, again, for a game that *still* is updating for the original Sony servers. And, that is one of the big differences. Most of the "original" muds that where out, well.. they don't exist either, anymore. And, not one of them managed 1.5 million players. Until the original servers shut down, until/unless the people from them decide to just move on to the next game, without looking to replay the content, you can't say dead. By that standard, muds died too, a long time ago, since they are keeping a tiny fraction of the possible players. Its the whole point of the thread.

Most of these servers have not been around for more than 4-5 years, a few maybe 10, and they seem to manage to have attracted, and keep on, 487 -> 982 players, just looking at the "original" server, only including the ones that are in *their* server list, and which are not running on people's own networks, or possibly using other means to direct players to them.

Its like a car. Yeah, one from 1960 is rare, but if all you want is a car from the company, you can still buy a 2010 model, it just won't be the 1960 one. It won't be custom modded, it won't have been owned by someone famous, etc. You are complaining that, "Well, people are not buying the new X brand as much, and the old one isn't sold any more, so, the entire line is dead." Show me a mud that, while the original was still running, had over 982 players, and for which there are **no** derivatives. Then you can tell me how EQ I qualifies as "dead".

Otherwise, its like whining that Diku is dead, based on the fact that there are more Diku muds run by some slub with 3 friends and a cat, who never **see** 150 players either, never mind nearly 1,000.

But, neither of us is going to know for sure, for years, possibly decades, and certainly not while who ever is *still* playing the original Sony servers are still playing on Sony accounts, using the original Sony version.

[Aeran]

Originally Posted by shadowfyr If WoW dies it will be because no one has emulated the server, and like others, some of them with far better server designs, the box in the shelf will become nothing more than a collectible, for obscure people that like software they can't even *ever* run any more.

Have you read Private server company forced to pay Blizzard $88 million ? The question is: who would dare to setup an emulator when it can cost them 88M USD? Things like that probably push developers away from emulation.

Also isn't it in the best interest of the MMO owners to get the pirate servers closed down? Even if the original owners don't run the game it could still be a competition to their new game. To me it looks like making/running an emulator is a high risk project.

[shadowfyr]

Originally Posted by Aeran Have you read Private server company forced to pay Blizzard $88 million ? The question is: who would dare to setup an emulator when it can cost them 88M USD? Things like that probably push developers away from emulation. Also isn't it in the best interest of the MMO owners to get the pirate servers closed down? Even if the original owners don't run the game it could still be a competition to their new game. To me it looks like making/running an emulator is a high risk project.

May depend a lot of how you do it, and if the people running the original are... nice about it. One of the things about the EQ one is that it only works with the client up to about Titanium edition, which means the last 2-3 years, or so, of content is "not" in emulation at all. I am guessing that the WoW people a) had less of a sense of humor, and/or b) the people doing it tried to do something stupid, like using their own server *and* client, or something like that. But, that is only a guess.

But, you are right, emulation, in all cases, even for games where the original company doesn't exist and no one knows who, if anyone, bloody does have the rights any more, is potentially risky. Some companies will guard something that 4 people want to play, based on the theory that *maybe* some where down the line they will use the title, or remake (usually badly) the game. You get the same thing in the movie industry, with something like 80% of everything ever made either being permanently lost, or sitting in some warehouse, slowly decaying, beyond recovery, because the company who have the warehouse don't give a damn, until someone says, "Heh, if you are not going to do it, can we?", and they go, "Sure.. for $20,000." Apparently... cockroaches must pay a lot of rent or something, otherwise I fail to grasp how charging some people with almost no funding so much they can only restore about 3 movies a year makes a damn bit of sense, when 50 movies degrade beyond the point of recovery each year, due to being sat on by the owners.

Point is, there is something profoundly stupid about the whole thing. But, someone deciding to emulate a game... they have to do something sufficiently stupid, legally questionable, or just to the wrong company, to get nailed for something that Sony obviously doesn't seem to think is quite as big a deal as Blizzard did. Makes me seriously wonder what the issue actually was, and on whose side. I am better though that it was one of two things - WoW may keep some things on the server end, more than EQ does, which would make for a problem, since it would be using their "content", not just emulating the stuff that controls it. Or, they tried to make their own client, which would constitute "using Blizzard's intellectual property, without permission". Buying a client legit, then using that, isn't the same thing. Making **entirely** your own graphics, and using the servers as a base, but none of the quests, zones, etc., would also be acceptable. Its using their graphics, in your own client that is a major issue.

BTW, that is another reason Sony is probably not too worried. How many copies of Titanium edition EQ I do you think are out there, at least legitimately? And, you can't use the patched or newer clients (at all). But, again, as long as you stripped 100% of the Sony material out, there is no reason you couldn't also build your own client to for the servers either. Its just not what they "intended" to do, at this point, with the exception of those "custom content" servers in the list.

Still, you are right. It would be safer to build such a server, and the client, and not touch anyone else's content while doing it. But, that takes a "lot" of development time. A lot more than just working out how to talk to a non-patched, old, copy of someone's legit client.

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by shadowfyr BTW, that is another reason Sony is probably not too worried. How many copies of Titanium edition EQ I do you think are out there, at least legitimately?

The reason Sony or any company is not worried is the same reason Tolkien doesn't care about Shadows of Isildur, no big money is changing hands. As soon as that changes, a sworm of attorneys will be happy to collect their fees.

[Aeran]

Originally Posted by shadowfyr Still, you are right. It would be safer to build such a server, and the client, and not touch anyone else's content while doing it. But, that takes a "lot" of development time. A lot more than just working out how to talk to a non-patched, old, copy of someone's legit client.

I think the first versions of Eternal Lands was made by a team of 1-2 people. (btw isn't it funny how the discussion has moved from health of MUDs to a discussion about graphical MUDs?)

[shadowfyr]

Originally Posted by Aeran I think the first versions of Eternal Lands was made by a team of 1-2 people. (btw isn't it funny how the discussion has moved from health of MUDs to a discussion about graphical MUDs?)

Hmm. Was thinking something more.. complex than Ultima 6 though. lol Still, my point in talking "graphical" ones is that its a bit like expecting people to go back to SNES games, when someone just released Halo: Reach. The core remains the same, on some level, even in newer ones (though the comparison for SNES might be better if it was to the newest Final Fantasy). I don't think you can separate the core design from the mere fact that it *has* graphics, then whine about whether there is some threat for muds. The people doing so do not mean "muds", they mean, "Our old, retro style, muds." They still make stuff *today* that looks like old SNES stuff. And, some people still play them, but its just not reasonable to assume that, with all the options out there, there is really a vast sea of untapped players, who want to play a game with the text client, no graphics at all, in most cases, etc. Hell, half the posts on the Mushclient forum have ranged from making the mapper it finally has work with different muds, to using its new graphics supporting mini-windows to create inventory systems (in at least one case, a graphical one). Its not far from that to someone going, "Hmm. I wonder if I could "design" rooms to display, which showed what was actually here. Heck, my own thought had been to use a sort of SDL, which could send, as plain text, the data needed to produce a 3D image of a room, without having to store all the data to do that local.

Mind, that idea would require making it work with like OpenGL or something, and a fast connection, so all the data could get there in a sane time frame, but.. if your normal players are thinking of graphics enhancements, even *while* playing text...

[Newworlds]

Originally Posted by Aeran btw isn't it funny how the discussion has moved from health of MUDs to a discussion about graphical MUDs?

Or the health of graphical MUDs which is even funnier.