[Estarra]

Do you enjoy the concept of fantasy ships that fly through weird dimensional space, encountering extraplanar monsters and pockets of strange realities? Look no further than Lusternia!

Continuing the tradition of being one of the leaders in innovative gameplay, Lusternia is very proud to announce the release of Aetherships--constructs that travel within the space between the planes of existence. This latest feature provides for players to transform their aethermanses (customizable player houses) into aetherships, which are part-vessel and part-extradimensional creature. Players also receive a new skillset called Aethercraft, which one must know in order to operate these ships. Captains can add on modules to further design their aetherships, such as battle turrets to combat extraplanar monsters, or an empathic grid to heal the ship and communicate great distances. In order for players to successfully operate aetherships, they must form crews that work harmoniously together. Overall, it’s a fresh approach to ships both in theme and mechanics.

[Baram]

Congratulations!

A very nice system, something I'm sure your players will love.

[the_logos]

Very cool and well-done, Estarra. They seem to be the source of a lot of excitement even on the other IRE game forums.

--matt

[prof1515]

Originally Posted by An aethership is actually a creature known as an extradiminesnional (sic) algontherine entity. These entities do not have physical bodies, but rather reside within the aetheric shells. Since an aethermanse is basically an aetheric shell, an algontherine can be hatched within, whereupon it will immediately bond with the aethermanse owner. This turns the aethermanse into an aethership, capable of traveling through the aetherways. Once an aethership is created, other modules may be then added. The owner of the aethership is always considered the Captain.

(emphasis mine)

Given that this is all make-believe, it would probably have been more creative and easier on the eye if every second term didn't include "ae". It's aenoying aes haell to see aevaery other word aend phraese include the same two-laetter combinaetion. It'd also make it a lot easier and less silly to try and repeat in a conversation, and I'm sure the terms will pop up in RP.

No doubt this will be taken as a flame when it's meant as friendly advice. It's your world to design, so why not put a bit more effort and care into it? Also might want to spell check your help files before you link them (unless of course the misspelling of "extradimensional" was deliberate to make people do a double-take thus increasing interest in the game, but I think we both know that's not the case).

Jason

[Estarra]

Originally Posted by (prof1515 @ Feb. 04 2006,17:27) No doubt this will be taken as a flame when it's meant as friendly advice.  It's your world to design, so why not put a bit more effort and care into it?

It's hard not to view your "advice" as a flame or bit of trolling when you frame things in such a condescending manner.

But thanks anyway for the advice!

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by (Estarra @ Feb. 04 2006,10:13) Do you enjoy the concept of fantasy ships that fly through weird dimensional space, encountering extraplanar monsters and pockets of strange realities?

Sounds like Spelljammer - it was a very cool D&D setting, and I've often thought it would work well in a mud. I know of two or three other muds working on something along these lines as well, but it's cool to see someone take it beyond the design phase. Other forum discussions have talked about combining the idea with an Elite-style trading system - are you thinking of taking that route as well?

[Estarra]

Originally Posted by (KaVir @ Feb. 04 2006,18:39) Sounds like Spelljammer - it was a very cool D&D setting, and I've often thought it would work well in a mud.  I know of two or three other muds working on something along these lines as well, but it's cool to see someone take it beyond the design phase.  Other forum discussions have talked about combining the idea with an Elite-style trading system - are you thinking of taking that route as well?

I must admit that Spelljammer was part of the inspiration!

I hadn't had any plans on a trading system but players have been mentioning it since ships were released. I'm not familiar with an Elite-style trading system. Anywhere I can go to check it out?

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by (Estarra @ Feb. 05 2006,00:48) I hadn't had any plans on a trading system but players have been mentioning it since ships were released. I'm not familiar with an Elite-style trading system. Anywhere I can go to check it out?

The Wikipedia entry gives a pretty good general overview.

Basically each world would have a space station, and you'd travel between space stations buying and selling in order to make a profit (eg buy computers at a high tech world, take them to a low tech world and sell them, then buy food and take them elsewhere). Some products were illegal in certain worlds (firearms, drugs, slaves, etc, were usually illegal, while other things like furs might also be illegal depending on the world) - illegal products resulted in more cash, but were also riskier to deal in. Then you'd have to deal with pirates, bounty hunters (if you were a smuggler), and so on.

To really break it down to the basics, the game consisted of: Buy X, fly to A, sell X, buy Y, fly to B, sell Y, buy Z. The game them threw in other things to keep you busy along the way.

It's an old game (published in 1984) and conceptually very simple, but it had a lot of replay value.

[Milawe]

I love trade-style games. Anyone remember Oregon Trails and such?

How do you balance this in a mud setting, though, unless it was the entire focus of the game? Wouldn't you have to have a money sink involved? Otherwise, you could make an obscene amount of money at little to no risk, right?

[Baram]

3-->

Originally Posted by (KaVir @ Feb. 05 2006,08[img http://www.topmudsites.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif[/img]3)] Originally Posted by Estarra,Feb. 05 2006,00:48 I hadn't had any plans on a trading system but players have been mentioning it since ships were released. I'm not familiar with an Elite-style trading system. Anywhere I can go to check it out? The Wikipedia entry gives a pretty good general overview. Basically each world would have a space station, and you'd travel between space stations buying and selling in order to make a profit (eg buy computers at a high tech world, take them to a low tech world and sell them, then buy food and take them elsewhere). Some products were illegal in certain worlds (firearms, drugs, slaves, etc, were usually illegal, while other things like furs might also be illegal depending on the world) - illegal products resulted in more cash, but were also riskier to deal in. Then you'd have to deal with pirates, bounty hunters (if you were a smuggler), and so on. To really break it down to the basics, the game consisted of: Buy X, fly to A, sell X, buy Y, fly to B, sell Y, buy Z. The game them threw in other things to keep you busy along the way. It's an old game (published in 1984) and conceptually very simple, but it had a lot of replay value.

Sounds like the old BBS game... who's name I knew when I hit the qoute button... grr, I'll find the name again I used to play that an LORD every day...

EDIT: Hit submit and I remember the name Planets: The exploration of sapce(Planets:TEOS). Really fun game, something modeled after that could be interesting to see, but more balanced, TEOS had a few guarenteed wins.

[Lisaera]

I loved the Elite games, and as I told Estarra when I was espousing their virtues, used to have the universe map from Frontier: Elite 2 on my bedroom wall. There's actually a current MMOG in the style, called EVE Online. I haven't had a chance to really play it (got a free trial but also got hired on Lusternia at the same time) but from what I've heard it keeps the spirit of the original space trader games quite well.

We've been talking about a trading system and whether it would be good and how to implement it if so, to complement the quests that exist in the planar bubbles inside the aetherways.

[Threshold]

The Elite games have had such an enormous impact on the gaming industry. It is amazing how many games still, to this day, capitalize on the basic-Elite style concepts. Why? Because they are fun.

Older games that were in that style included such classics as Starflight and Star Control. Newers games include Freelancer, EVE Online, and EA's failed Earth & Beyond.

Something is definitely *right* about the basic gameplay concept.

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (prof1515 @ Feb. 04 2006,17:27) No doubt this will be taken as a flame when it's meant as friendly advice. It's your world to design, so why not put a bit more effort and care into it? Also might want to spell check your help files before you link them (unless of course the misspelling of "extradimensional" was deliberate to make people do a double-take thus increasing interest in the game, but I think we both know that's not the case). Jason

My guess is that you don't understand the difference between the word 'aether' and 'ether'. 'Ether' has too many strong modern connotation, as despite being used as far back as classical times, its common use is now almost entirely 'modern.'

Ether is a class of organic compounds, as well as a specific, very flammable liquid. It's also one spelling of the word used, since classical times, to describe the medium that makes up space, being used later on to be described as the medium through which electro-magnetic waves travel.

Aether on the other hand, is not only a more faithful translation of the Greek 'aither' or the Latin 'aether' from which both words derive, but has much more appropriate meanings. It was used by the ancients to describe both the medium that makes up the heavens as well as the rarified upper air that the Gods on Olympus breathed.

So, the choice was between 'ether' which has a host of modern, scientific meanings, or 'aether' which has only 'ancient' meanings. I'm sure it's clear to most people why 'aether' was chosen.

--matt

[prof1515]

Originally Posted by (the_logos @ Feb. 05 2006,16:03) Originally Posted by (prof1515 @ Feb. 04 2006,17:27) No doubt this will be taken as a flame when it's meant as friendly advice.  It's your world to design, so why not put a bit more effort and care into it?  Also might want to spell check your help files before you link them (unless of course the misspelling of "extradimensional" was deliberate to make people do a double-take thus increasing interest in the game, but I think we both know that's not the case). Jason My guess is that you don't understand the difference between the word 'aether' and 'ether'. 'Ether' has too many strong modern connotation, as despite being used as far back as classical times, its common use is now almost entirely 'modern.' Ether is a class of organic compounds, as well as a specific, very flammable liquid. It's also one spelling of the word used, since classical times, to describe the medium that makes up space, being used later on to be described as the medium through which electro-magnetic waves travel. Aether on the other hand, is not only a more faithful translation of the Greek 'aither' or the Latin 'aether' from which both words derive, but has much more appropriate meanings. It was used by the ancients to describe both the medium that makes up the heavens as well as the rarified upper air that the Gods on Olympus breathed. So, the choice was between 'ether' which has a host of modern, scientific meanings, or 'aether' which has only 'ancient' meanings. I'm sure it's clear to most people why 'aether' was chosen. --matt

And your guess is wrong. I'm an ancient historian who was at one time a biology major long ago and well-versed on the definition of both ether and aether. I was commenting on the over-use of the word aether attached to every term (aetherspace, aethership, aethermanse, etc). There's no reason it need be. One may drive an automobile, but they don't drive it on an autohighway while sitting in the autoseat and steering with the autowheel and listening to the autoradio to drown out the sound of the autoengine which is louder than it should be because the automuffler isn't functioning properly. The terms don't have to all use the same prefix even if related to the same activity. Repitition of that degree is annoying to read. Made all the worse is the fact that you're using a word that utilizes a double-vowel like "ae" which some don't always know how to pronounce (yeah, shouldn't be difficult, I agree, but language comprehension skills in this country suck).

While only a small sample, I polled five people (all MUDders) and four agreed that the use of the prefix "aether" before every term was not only unnecessary but annoying. One of them thanked me for saying something because they were on the verge of doing the same. The term "aether" itself is a good term to use, but there's simply no reason that it has to be attached to every related word.

Take care,

Jason

[prof1515]

On a side note, one of the people I polled (reference above) said they thought it was curious that a Spelljammer-like concept would appear on an IRE game after Chad McHenry, aka Traithe, left the IRE project he was working on and announced he was starting a MUD essentially based on Spelljammer called Etherea.

I said I had no idea what the timeline was on the development of either project so I couldn't say which came first. It did spark my interest though. Were these two projects a case of independent creation or a race to outflank competition?

Take care,

Jason

[Rivalyn]

Earth and Beyond (mmorpg) was tailored around the trade system too wasn't it? Not that it exists anymore, but I remember beta-testing it and enjoying it quite a bit.

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by And your guess is wrong. I'm an ancient historian who was at one time a biology major long ago and well-versed on the definition of both ether and aether. I was commenting on the over-use of the word aether attached to every term (aetherspace, aethership, aethermanse, etc). There's no reason it need be.

Ok! Everyone's entitled to his or her opinion. We disagree, and we'll just leave it at that. Somehow, I suspect Lusternia will do just fine under our direction.

Originally Posted by On a side note, one of the people I polled (reference above) said they thought it was curious that a Spelljammer-like concept would appear on an IRE game after Chad McHenry, aka Traithe, left the IRE project he was working on and announced he was starting a MUD essentially based on Spelljammer called Etherea.

Chad didn't leave. We cancelled the project (well, delayed it really, which left Chad without a job) and then started it again a number of months later, which left Chad having to commit to law school for the next year (as he was going to do one or the other).

Originally Posted by I said I had no idea what the timeline was on the development of either project so I couldn't say which came first. It did spark my interest though. Were these two projects a case of independent creation or a race to outflank competition?

I couldn't say who decided to start first. Aetherships were Estarra's idea and she's been working on Lusternia in fiction for over a twelve years. I dunno if the aetherships were historically part of the Lusternian universe or not or not.

In any case, I'm guessing Etherea died a handful of months after it started, and before development on aetherships even began. The last post on their forums is from August 26th, over 5 months ago.

--matt

[Estarra]

Originally Posted by (prof1515 @ Feb. 06 2006,13:05) On a side note, one of the people I polled (reference above) said they thought it was curious that a Spelljammer-like concept would appear on an IRE game after Chad McHenry, aka Traithe, left the IRE project he was working on and announced he was starting a MUD essentially based on Spelljammer called Etherea. I said I had no idea what the timeline was on the development of either project so I couldn't say which came first.  It did spark my interest though.  Were these two projects a case of independent creation or a race to outflank competition? Take care, Jason

Since I designed the aethership feature, I can tell you that the basic model was laid out sometime in 2004 (before Lusternia was even released). Indeed, it has always been a pet project that I've wanted to do.

I had no idea what Traithe was planning until you posted, so the projects were definitely independently developed.

[Threshold]

Originally Posted by (prof1515 @ Feb. 06 2006,12:59) While only a small sample, I polled five people (all MUDders) and four agreed that the use of the prefix "aether" before every term was not only unnecessary but annoying. One of them thanked me for saying something because they were on the verge of doing the same. The term "aether" itself is a good term to use, but there's simply no reason that it has to be attached to every related word.

I keep wondering: if your intentions were indeed as altruistic as you claim, why didn't you just send her a PM?

[prof1515]

Originally Posted by (Threshold @ Feb. 06 2006,19:17) I keep wondering: if your intentions were indeed as altruistic as you claim, why didn't you just send her a PM?

Actually, I don't like using the PM system since I often forget to check it or get sidetracked when I do. Felt bad after the last person who PM'd me had to wait about three weeks before I checked it.

Take care,

Jason

[prof1515]

Originally Posted by (Estarra @ Feb. 06 2006,13:55) Since I designed the aethership feature, I can tell you that the basic model was laid out sometime in 2004 (before Lusternia was even released). Indeed, it has always been a pet project that I've wanted to do. I had no idea what Traithe was planning until you posted, so the projects were definitely independently developed.

Cool.  Was just curious since someone asked me which was developed first and I couldn't provide them an answer.

As for my confusion over Traithe leaving IRE, there have been numerous rumors, none of which I'd heard had been confirmed or denied by him, as to what happened with the project (supposedly on account of a non-disclosure agreement).  Thanks for the clarification, Matt.

Take care,

Jason

[Ilkidarios]

Well, this sounds pretty cool.  But still, I'm never going to play an IRE game so I guess the point is moot.

[Estarra]

I just wanted to share what a very dedicated player has been doing: mapping aetherspace (which believe me is a mindboggingly difficult task). Check out the Avaerin Aether Cartography Project. I must say I'm impressed!

[the_logos]

Damn dragons!

--matt

[Anitra]

Estarra @ Feb. 09 2006,19:31

Originally Posted by I must say I'm impressed!

Well, this time I am impressed too.
The other examples of IRE maps that someone posted looked pretty mundane to me. This one is more like it. Can't say how accurate it is of course, but it's a really cool map, decorative too.

Just out of curiosity; is the base for it a grid, and if so how large?

[Richter]

Quite amazing how something new and innovative (as well as time-consuming in the coding department) can be instantly bashed. I guess I'm just used to people with a tad more civility.

In any case, the link to Elryn's page seems to be not working, so I'll give you the map of Aetherspace here. This one isn't as cool, because on Elryn's you could click a space and it would zoom it so you could see the individual characters, but you can get a general sense of space by looking at the black spots (which were monsters that his automapper skipped over). Those are each one character, one space, and where your ship can be.

And as far as we know, it's completely accurate, as he used a program to map it, bit by bit.

It's quite a fantastic addition!

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by I guess I'm just used to people with a tad more civility.

Your're a MOD of the Lusternia forums so I know that isn't true.

[Spazmatic]

Originally Posted by Quite amazing how something new and innovative (as well as time-consuming in the coding department) can be instantly bashed.

Okay, let me recap here...

As I see it, there are four main threads of discusison under this topic.

1) Similar systems elsewhere (ala Spelljammer, Elite, etc).
2) Repetition of the "ae" prefix.
3) Maps.
4) Source of inspiration.

The first was certainly not bashing anything - in fact, I think, when most people see "aether" or "ether" ships in fantasy, they think Spelljammer. Either way, it was an interesting romp through history.

The second was phrased kind of... condenscendingly, but he does have a point - check his automobile example for a reasonable comparison. That said, at least some players do enjoy having "aetherships" with "aetherengines" and "aethersails", and said system has other positive aspects as well. In the end, a judgement call without a definitive answer, stated rather non-objectively, but it was really nothing so terrible.

The third point was generally positive, so, yeah.

The fourth point did imply that Lusternia's feature may or may not be original, and so forth, but it seemed pretty mild. It did not attack the feature itself, however, just its intellectual genesis, and it never really did so directly.

In the end, I don't see anywhere in here that someone actually bashed the feature. Nobody said, "Omgz0r, lame and stoopid!!!111"

Half the threads are either tangential or positive, and the remaining two consist of one individual stating a difference in position and a question with some iffy implications. Neither time did he discuss the feature itself, just its genesis and the way it is documented/marketed, and both are rather mild by any measure.

So, please, don't trash the forums, don't trash its denizens, and certainly don't masquerade behind a veil of civility. TMS has its sad times (many, in fact, most of which are derived from a handful of very touchy subjects), but this is not one of them.

[Estarra]

Some of you may remember Lusternia's Aetherspace release, a ship system where players design their own ships and purchase modifications and upgrades to travel through the aetherways to explore new worlds and realities. Many of you suggested that a trade system would really round out the design. We took the ideas presented here of an Elite-style trade system, as well as input from our players, and implemented a trading system for ships! It's been running for over a month now and players seem to be really having fun with it.

Originally Posted by Glaetherial Dust and Aetherholds: When aether creatures die, they leave behind traces of glaetherial dust. Aetherships that are equipped with an aetherhold can collect glaetherial dust by a qualified pilot. One aetherhold can hold up to 50 tons. Ships can have unlimited holds (though only one hold per room). Glaetherial dust quickly decays while in the aetherhold. Glaetherial dust can only be used to trade with the gnome merchants. An implosion will destroy the hold and release any gathered glaetherial dust into aetherspace. Gnome Merchants: Gnome merchants travel the aetherways in trade ships and can be found throughout aetherspace. These gnome merchants will trade special commodities for glaetherial dust. These commodities have absolutely no use to anyone except gnomes and are stored in aetherholds. Gnome merchants will then in turn purchase these commodities for gold. Different merchant ships will buy these commodities at different prices, so it is possible to find lucrative trades by transporting commodities among the different gnome merchants. Gnome merchant ships generally stick to their own sectors of aetherspace, though some gnome merchants travel more widely than others. Experienced aetherspace travellers will come to know what locations to find these Facility, a commonly known aetherbubble.