[John]

Instead of flaming logos, why not congratulate him? He's been able to turn a mud which is predominantly a hobbyist platform into a successful business. I only know of a handful of muds that have been able to be successful from commercial muds.

Your arguing that no way in heck (use to posting on boards with strict anti-swearing policies ) will people be able to pay for the Rapture liscence and make a profit from it. Well Iron Realms Entertainment has done this. That's a fact. I don't see why everyone is getting so worked up.

Would I personally play on a commercial mud? Naaah. But it doesn't mean I go around flaming commercial muds claiming there is no way to turn a profit from them.

I think it's safe to say Iron Realms has been successful. The fact one of it's muds is always at number one shows that they have a large player base, and the fact they're (possibly?) working on a Feist mud in the future shows they've made a name for themselves (now a Raymond E. Feist inspired mud may be something I check out )

Logos: Do all your muds have a strong political side to them? If so, how do you sustain a high political aspect without having RPIs?

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by Instead of flaming logos

I have not flamed him. I have disagreed with the practicality of what he is offering. There is a difference.

Originally Posted by I only know of a handful of muds that have been able to be successful from commercial muds.

Exactly. And why do you think that is?

Originally Posted by Your arguing that no way in heck (use to posting on boards with strict anti-swearing policies ) will people be able to pay for the Rapture liscence and make a profit from it.

I'm saying that I don't believe such a mud would be able to recover the required expenditure within any sort of realistic timeframe, particularly when a substantial chunk of the income is used paying off royalties.

Originally Posted by Well Iron Realms Entertainment has done this.

No, Iron Realms Entertainment owns the engine. It didn't buy a license (from itself!), nor does it pay "substantial royalties" on its income. Furthermore it has taken six years since it opened for Achaea to reach the level of popularity that it has today, and from what I've read the early days were not easy.

[John]

Originally Posted by I have not flamed him.

I didn't mention you, but IMO some of these posts have been pretty flamatory. Guess I'm use to calmer boards *shrug*

Originally Posted by Exactly. And why do you think that is?

Because it's primarily a hobbyist area. But so what? If muds can buy a liscence for Rapture and make a profit then what's the problem? You keep saying it's unlikely, but aside from the royalties aspect, Iron Realms did exactly that. It spent $10,000 on an engine and has become successful.

I don't know if the royalty aspect will make THAT much of a difference, guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Originally Posted by Furthermore it has taken six years since it opened for Achaea to reach the level of popularity that it has today

You think 6 years isn't a realistic time frame? Besides, it'd be interesting to find out how long it took Iron Realms to gain a profit (I'm assuming it hasn't only just recently started gaining a profit).

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by Exactly. And why do you think that is? Because it's primarily a hobbyist area. But so what?

I doubt that has much to do with it. I suspect the most likely reason is that it's such a niche market, there's not a great deal of money to be had. Running a successful mud is not easy, and that is even more the case when your livelihood depends on it.

Originally Posted by aside from the royalties aspect,

Which is the primary point I've been talking about. The "signifant royalties" will be a constant hole in the pocket of the mud owner.

Originally Posted by You think 6 years isn't a realistic time frame?

Without having to pay significant royalties, it's a realistic time frame.

[Molly]

Originally Posted by I understand that you're a bitter person and fundamentally have something against commercial muds (god knows you've demonstrated it enough times in your posts)

Well, actually you are wrong about that. I don't have anything against commercial muds, as long as they charge their players per month or per hour or whatever - as long as it lets everyone start from the same platform.

What I DO have a problem with is Muds that sell In-game benefits for RL money, because that DOES defeat the purpose of the game.

And that's what you are doing, regardless of the smokescreens you try to put out.  If the players didn't get actual benefits from it, they obviously would not pay good money for those credits. And judging from the way you brag about your successful business idea at every possible occasion, you are making quite a good profit from it too.

I think you probably run a good Mud, but somewhere along the line your interest in profit took over all other aspects of it. (god knows you've demonstrated it enough times in your posts).

[Delerak]

I wonder where the mudding community would be if the creators of DikuMUD didn't realease their code and decided to copyright it and sell it? Probably not where it is today.

-Delerak

[malaclypse]

Originally Posted by I'm saying that I don't believe such a mud would be able to recover the required expenditure within any sort of realistic timeframe, particularly when a substantial chunk of the income is used paying off royalties.

Originally Posted by The "signifant royalties" will be a constant hole in the pocket of the mud owner.

Pretty bold statements considering you have no facts on which to base those conclusions. Why don't you spare everyone your speculative stabs in the dark.

Originally Posted by You think 6 years isn't a realistic time frame?

Originally Posted by Without having to pay significant royalties, it's a realistic time frame.

What do the royalties have to do with the feasibility of a timeframe for returns on investment? When you finally break even, the numbers on accounting statements (like royalty payments) won't change the fact that you broke even.

Originally Posted by I wonder where the mudding community would be if the creators of DikuMUD didn't realease their code and decided to copyright it and sell it? Probably not where it is today.

Today? You mean inundated with identical stock muds run mostly by children who left their previous muds on tantrums, swearing to make the most l33t mud ever? Yeah, probably not.

- Ryan

[Stilton]

KaVir:

Originally Posted by There are other perfectly good engines which could be used - there's no reason why a company would need to develop their own unless they need it to do something which isn't feasible with the currently available engines.

I'm quite aware of many good bases to work from for a hobbyist.  As logos noted, none of these have a proven track record of years in a commercial environment supporting several hundred simultaneous users.  Am I missing something?

I imagine that, with royalties, you also get continuing support/development.  This may be much, much cheaper in the short term than hiring a coder (in the fully paid sense).

Originally Posted by However unless the mud owner plans to run a "stock Rapture" mud, they're still going to need to invest a huge amount of time and effort in order to turn it into a decent mud.

I don't believe that either of us has enough information to make that statement.  I believe that there are content development tools written in Rapture, and for all I or you know they're included.

Originally Posted by And where will the players for these new Rapture muds come from?

I respect a lot of your opinions, but now you're claiming "it'll never work" to someone (logos, not me) who HAS made it work, past tense, and shows every sign of continuing to make it work.

Stilton

[Stilton]

KaVir, responding to malaclypse:

Originally Posted by "Well Iron Realms Entertainment has done this. " No, Iron Realms Entertainment owns the engine.  It didn't buy a license (from itself!), nor does it pay "substantial royalties" on its income.

Iron Realms now owns Rapture.  To get started,  Achaea LLC LICENSED Hourglass and then Vortex, and paid royaltie.

logos has in fact done what malaclypse proposes to do, and you claim above that he hasn't: start a company with a licensed engine and make it a success.

Stilton

[Delerak]

Stilton that depends on your definition of success. Making lots of money? Sure. A success in my eyes? No, just a game that is making sales off poor saps who buy into it. I can deduce that at least 70% of the people who play Achaea (I am hypothesizing here) are not older and mature gamers, most likely they are younger, teenage kids who use their parents money or their allowance to buy their "credits". No it's not a fact, but it's just my guess, and that is why it is having 'success'.

-Delerak

[malaclypse]

Originally Posted by (Molly O'Hara @ Sep. 30 2003,09:29) Well, actually you are wrong about that. I don't have anything against commercial muds, as long as they charge their players per month or per hour or whatever - as long as it lets everyone start from the same platform.

The argument that has been posted to this board time and time again is that money is just another OOC commodity that can affect a mud. The other major one is time. Is it fair that in a diku the guy with nothing to do all day can beat the pants off a professional who can only log in the evenings? Not particularly.

And so it could be argued that by allowing more than one commodity to be used, it is actually more fair than your standard diku. Now the guy in his parents basement can play all day (giving back to the game community, thereby earning credits), and the professional can buy a few credits to save himself some time. They can both achieve.

Of course, if you're simply railing against capitalism, you wouldn't want it to be fair for the professional anyways. If thats the case (and the more you post the more it seems that way), then lets just agree to disagree.

Originally Posted by What I DO have a problem with is Muds that sell In-game benefits for RL money, because that DOES defeat the purpose of the game.

I'd like to see you try to qualify that statement.

Originally Posted by If the players didn't get actual benefits from it, they obviously would not pay good money for those credits.

Obviously they get benefits from their purchases. But, as Matt pointed out earlier in this thread, the point of the game is not to acquire the things the company sells, the point of the game is the interaction between the players.

- Ryan

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by What I DO have a problem with is Muds that sell In-game benefits for RL money, because that DOES defeat the purpose of the game.

Wow, so, as far as I can tell, you've never spent any significant time in our games and yet you're already acquainted with the various purposes that players play the game for. Are you psychic?

If your idea of good mudding fun is item and skill acquisition then yes, you can buy success in our games. Can't say I know many players playing our games for whom that is true though and, in fact, our games would be awfully boring if you're playing for the purpose of getting skills or equipment.

You may have a difficult time processing this but all muds are not the same and all mud players aren't looking for the same thing.

Originally Posted by And that's what you are doing, regardless of the smokescreens you try to put out. If the players didn't get actual benefits from it, they obviously would not pay good money for those credits.

Of course they get benefits from buying credits. What's your point though? They buy those credits because it increases their enjoyment of the game, just like I might subscribe to a game because it's more fun than just looking at the website. I'm not sure what your problem is with that. Just don't buy them if you don't want them. *shrug*

--matt

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (Delerak @ Sep. 30 2003,14:08) Stilton that depends on your definition of success.  Making lots of money?  Sure.  A success in my eyes?  No, just a game that is making sales off poor saps who buy into it.  I can deduce that at least 70% of the people who play Achaea (I am hypothesizing here) are not older and mature gamers, most likely they are younger, teenage kids who use their parents money or their allowance to buy their "credits".  No it's not a fact, but it's just my guess, and that is why it is having 'success'. -Delerak

Ahh, speculation in the absence of any information is wonderful isn't it?

The average age of our players is 24.

--matt

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (John @ Sep. 30 2003,07:56) Logos: Do all your muds have a strong political side to them? If so, how do you sustain a high political aspect without having RPIs?

Yep, they all do. I'm not sure if you want to call it roleplaying or not but it is definitely very immersive and players take the political aspects of the game -very- seriously. They write constitutions, sets of laws, have trials, elections, conspire to throw people out of office, etc. It's great fun if you're really involved in the political side, whether that's at the religious, guild, or city level.

So, if I'm a member of the Shamans guild, which is not getting along with the city it is chartered in (Hashan) and I have a guild meeting to formulate a strategy to stack the Hashan ruling class with either Shamans or people sympathetic to us, but mention that I saw last night's Daily Show and found it funny, am I RPing? That's what I mean when I say I don't know (or care) if it's what people consider "RP". I'm just happy to see players taking the world and their positions in it seriously.

--matt

[the_logos]

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Originally Posted by (John @ Sep. 30 2003,09[img http://www.topmudsites.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif[/img]7)]You think 6 years isn't a realistic time frame? Besides, it'd be interesting to find out how long it took Iron Realms to gain a profit (I'm assuming it hasn't only just recently started gaining a profit).

We've been making a profit since 1998.

What's funny about this entire discussion is that every point the naysayers bring up seems to be based on either incorrect information or no information.

--matt

[Delerak]

I'm not a naysayer, I just personally don't like people who make money off of muds, something that was never meant to be a money-making business, yet it is turning into one sadly enough. Maybe I will slip my dungeon master a 20$ and he'll give my dwarven fighter 200 gold. Sounds good.

-Delerak