[Realedazed]

I think I may be able to put an RPI into a the mix. Or something that -could- be considered a RPI.

There is a verison of Gemstone and DragonRealms that is Roleplay Enforced. It has the same machanics and features of the other games, plus a lot more. There, people play at least 50 dollars are more a month to play there. During my trail there, many, many people mentioned that they wouldn't mind paying and playing if the price was cheaper. I think at most 100 people may be online at once and maybe double that for event with the current price of $50. If the price was cheaper maybe that number could be 200 on the regular and 400+ for special event.

Well, its been a while since my free trail and I haven't really looked back since. But hopefully my numbers are not too way off.


Also, the reasons why I think most of the RPI's have low player bases is because most of the games that I know about cater to a certian genre.
Armagedon is a harsh, low-fantasy Dark Sun world.
Harshland - low-fantasy, Harn world (I think)
SoI- Toiken-based, (and low-fantasy, I think)

I lot of the players I've spoken to who play Lusternia, an IRE game say that they like the world and history. I agree and if I'm not mistaken it's high fantasy. If I'm thinking about starting a RPI, I would take these things into consideration: a likeable world with a history that is interesting, a world that could draw in almost any player and one that is open enough that the players could actually see themsleves at a part of that world. Also the game would have interesting and fun skills, spells, features, gods, etc. Maybe alternate ways to advance your character - through crafting, hunting, RPing or maybe gaining a small amount of experience for just being there in the game (no idling of course!.

Honestly, I've been searching for a game with those qualities what was also a RPI and I would not mind paying monthly for it.

[Fifi]

I think the problems with RPI's (for lack of any other fitting term, and it differs from and RP I, just so we're all talking about apples, rather than apples and oranges) as a commercial venture as nothing to do with quality rp, and everything to do with a) permadeath and b) no visible xp or levels. Gamers (again we can argue semantics, but I think we all understand what I mean) like levels. They want to be able to numerically measure their progress. No levels is a hard sell to that market. But commercially there are no options for players who don't enjoy the numbers game. Some of them find non-commercial games. Some opt to just go ahead and read, rather than play games.

The RPers who will like the lack of levels are likely to be the most resistant to permanent death. They're more likely to be emotionally invested in their pcs. I think once they've lost a couple of characters and see that the game is still fun, in fact, some would argue more fun, get past their resistance. But retaining them through that learning curve is, yes, unattractively problematic for those thinking about sinking money into a project.

I don't think just because Matt is the most commercially successful member of this particular community he has some obligation to make all our dreams come true. Likely, with his lack of enthusiasm he would be the wrong person. But this is an venue that could be successful commercially in the right hands.

To summarize, Matt says RPIs are not commercially viable. I'd argue that they are, but not for Iron Realms. For someone with capital, vision and passion for RPIs I think there is money to be made. After all, tanning salons and yoga clothing are also niche, but profitablem if not as wide-spread in appeal as a McDonalds franchise. It's a matter of creating a good product, funding it through its early stages, and marketing it well. If I had the capital, I'd do it.

[Realedazed]

Originally Posted by (Fifi @ Oct. 26 2005,17:29) I don't think just because Matt is the most commercially successful member of this particular community he has some obligation to make all our dreams come true. Likely, with his lack of enthusiasm he would be the wrong person. But this is an venue that could be successful commercially in the right hands. To summarize, Matt says RPIs are not commercially viable. I'd argue that they are, but not for Iron Realms. For someone with capital, vision and passion for RPIs I think there is money to be made. After all, tanning salons and yoga clothing are also niche, but profitablem if not as wide-spread in appeal as a McDonalds franchise. It's a matter of creating a good product, funding it through its early stages, and marketing it well. If I had the capital, I'd do it.

My post wasn't really aimed at Matt. What he does with his game is at the end his choice, no matter what we say or want. I just threw that though in for the sake of the discussion: Can RPI's be profitable? Or whatever it is. This topic as changed so much.

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (Fifi @ Oct. 26 2005,18:29) To summarize, Matt says RPIs are not commercially viable. I'd argue that they are, but not for Iron Realms. For someone with capital, vision and passion for RPIs I think there is money to be made.

No doubt money can be made. I said earlier that I'm sure we could make one that can at least pay the bills (ie is profitable). As you point out though, I don't have any particular passion for RPIs over any other sort of MUD though, so I wouldn't choose to have an RPI made when I don't believe it is likely to be nearly as profitable as another choice.

Also, capital isn't really required as long as you can put in sweat equity. I didn't have any capital when initially starting Achaea (which grew into Iron Realms), for instance. I did have a lot of free time I could dedicate to working on the game though.

--matt

[GuruPlayer]

I knew when I saw this thread there would be some interesting responses.  But the selling out for profit posters...

My dad always taught me if you want to be happy in life, make sure you're happy in your job.  What better way to make a living than being paid for doing something you love.

I'm a professional actor, but when I was an acting student, there was always someone who claimed "I'll never do a commercial! I'm an artist!!"  Then when you get out of school, & move away from home & have to pay bills, & the pay from one medium market ad that took one day to shoot matches the amount you earned all last year in the theatre...That's not selling out, that's survival, baby!

It wouldn't surprise me if the posters bitching about sell outs & profits still live at home with mommy & daddy...

Anyway, congrats to Traithe, & I'll be looking forward to the grand opening!

By the way, the posters that continue to bitch about IRE games being pay for perks games.  Jeez, give it a rest will ya, it's old news, they've always stated that they are commerical,  they're not going to change that policy, so quit wasting your flames!

[Fifi]

Originally Posted by (the_logos @ Oct. 26 2005,19:33) Originally Posted by (Fifi @ Oct. 26 2005,18:29) To summarize, Matt says RPIs are not commercially viable. I'd argue that they are, but not for Iron Realms. For someone with capital, vision and passion for RPIs I think there is money to be made. No doubt money can be made. I said earlier that I'm sure we could make one that can at least pay the bills (ie is profitable). As you point out though, I don't have any particular passion for RPIs over any other sort of MUD though, so I wouldn't choose to have an RPI made when I don't believe it is likely to be nearly as profitable as another choice. Also, capital isn't really required as long as you can put in sweat equity. I didn't have any capital when initially starting Achaea (which grew into Iron Realms), for instance. I did have a lot of free time I could dedicate to working on the game though. --matt

I'd love to have the opportunity to pick your brain about how to start a profitable game without much capital. Feel free to message me, if you'd be willing to have that sort of dialogue.

[prof1515]

Originally Posted by (Fifi @ Oct. 26 2005,18:29) I think the problems with RPI's (for lack of any other fitting term, and it differs from and RP I, just so we're all talking about apples, rather than apples and oranges) as a commercial venture as nothing to do with quality rp, and everything to do with a) permadeath and b) no visible xp or levels. Gamers (again we can argue semantics, but I think we all understand what I mean) like levels. They want to be able to numerically measure their progress. No levels is a hard sell to that market. But commercially there are no options for players who don't enjoy the numbers game. Some of them find non-commercial games. Some opt to just go ahead and read, rather than play games.

Many people who play Viagra (pay-to-play/perks) MUDs do so in order to have the opportunity to advance OUTSIDE of the game requirements, no matter how impotent they may be as a player. This is where such MUDs generate a good portion of their money, and why I call them Viagra MUDs. They generate their revenue off the poor slobs who want to compensate for whatever abilities and qualities they lack through the application of their currency. To flex their egos, overcome their insecurities, make themselves feel like they're something they're not.

Thus, I agree with Matt that a pay-to-play RPI would not be a very commercially-successful option.

Why? Because in an RPI environment, it's strict in-character role-play. If it isn't achieved through the game itself, and through acceptable and reasonable actions in-character, it's not something you can just plunk down cash for and receive. Commercially, unless you're simply paying to play and get animations any time you want, you're paying for something which free-to-play RPIs offer anyway. The only thing you'd really be paying for is the availability of staff. However, even there you can't manage sufficient staff to handle everyone WHENEVER they want. The only guaranteed way to do this would be to have such a high ratio of staff to players that you can ensure that if every player were online, they're be staff for every one of them. Maintaining such a high number of staff would be costly, and the cost of playing would have to reflect that. At some point, the cost becomes counter-productive to attracting players and your numbers would be lower, which would lead to less interaction. So, unless players were paying to constantly interact with a staff member, they'd find less opportunity for RP with others.

Originally Posted by I don't think just because Matt is the most commercially successful member of this particular community he has some obligation to make all our dreams come true. Likely, with his lack of enthusiasm he would be the wrong person. But this is an venue that could be successful commercially in the right hands. To summarize, Matt says RPIs are not commercially viable. I'd argue that they are, but not for Iron Realms. For someone with capital, vision and passion for RPIs I think there is money to be made. After all, tanning salons and yoga clothing are also niche, but profitablem if not as wide-spread in appeal as a McDonalds franchise. It's a matter of creating a good product, funding it through its early stages, and marketing it well. If I had the capital, I'd do it.

That doesn't mean it's impossible. It would most certainly be a very cool thing, if done properly. But if you're paying to play in an RPI world, the expectations of quality would have to be pretty high, since you're not paying for any perks aside from quality. Even then, most RPIs, like most MUDs in general, haven't got a perfectly-designed (some of them aren't even well-designed) world, and most players don't have the skills or knowledge to interact completely in it anyway (unless it were contemporary modern). After all, if I'm paying to play in an RPI medieval (to choose an example) environment, I'd expect anyone else I'm interacting with not to say "OK", much less "dude".

So what does one do when a player uses such inappropriate, in-character behavior? Do you ban them from a game they paid to play? If not, you risk losing other paying players. Either way, you're losing revenue, which sets into motion that spiral affect I described above.

In the end, there's probably a half-dozen admins out there with the ability to take on such a project, and a couple dozen players with the ability to play in such a world. Hardly the pool for a successful commercial venture.

It'd still be an awesome idea, but I agree with Matt that it wouldn't be a good choice for a commercially-successful one.

Take care,

Jason

[Realedazed]

I am curious too. I didn't want to ask because I may try it. It seems that my life is filled with one of my hair brained schemes after another. I don't think I need another. :/

[Daedroth]

Originally Posted by (the_logos @ Jan. 20 2005,15:36) Of course, it's easy for the ones criticizing you to do so, because none of the ones doing so have any ability and thus certainly don't have to worry that they'd ever be offered an opportunity like this. Thus they're free to scream and cry like little children, safe in the knowledge that they're losers and so have nothing to lose. They can't even lose touch with the real world, since that is a non-existent connection for them. They live in little teenage dreamworlds where mommy and daddy pay the bills and it's "selling out, man" to get paid to do what you love. I hope they have to flip burgers at McDonalds when they grow up, since doing anything enjoyable for a living is apparently a sin. Speaking for myself (and likely everybody else at Iron Realms), I'll continue having the World's Best Job and laughing it up while these ineffectual morons bitch and moan in their personal hells of frustrated, bitter jealousy. --matt

Sounds to me like youre kind of ignorant... You WANT people to grow up and work at mcdonalds? By the way, they dont flip burgers at mcdonalds anymore, perhaps you should look into things more before you speak...




ps: Are you drunk and just blabbering on? 0_o
Its what it sounds like...

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (prof1515 @ Oct. 27 2005,00:25) So what does one do when a player uses such inappropriate, in-character behavior?  Do you ban them from a game they paid to play?  If not, you risk losing other paying players.

That's definitely one of the reasons RPIs are less attractive commercially. It's a problem in any MUD (you can't just let people run rampant being huge abusive jerks, even if they're customers), but because there are more restrictions on a player's behavior in an RPI (ie he has to stick to pretty strict roleplaying standards), there's more to police for and more to punish for.

The stance I tend to prefer is that we punish for doing things (positive actions). Killing players without good reason, for instance. On the other hand, I don't like the idea of punishing players for -not- doing things (negative actions), and that's where RPIs create a problem in commercial MUDs. Not roleplaying can't be tolerated or soon you'll not have an RPI anymore. For whatever reason, people don't seem to get nearly as angry when their time is sacrificed as when their money is sacrificed, so being commercial magnifies the problem further.

--matt

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by (Fifi @ Oct. 27 2005,06:19) I'd love to have the opportunity to pick your brain about how to start a profitable game without much capital.

He just gave you his suggestion: Sweat equity.

I doubt you could ever start a profitable game without much capital. What you could do, however, is put a lot of time and effort into creating a mud, and then turn it into a profitable game.

For example, you might do something like:

Step 1: Download a free compiler.

Step 2: Spend a few thousand hours creating a decent mud.

Step 3: Find a host (you might even be able to negotiate a free one).

Step 4: Spend a couple of years building up a playerbase.

Step 5: Go commercial.

After that you could use the money for advertising, to get better hosting, and so on.

The hardest part is step 2 - it will require a lot of time, effort, perseverance and motivation. You'll also need vision and skill, not only to design a mud that people are willing to pay for, but also to be able to develop it.

[Lanthum]

Originally Posted by (KaVir @ Oct. 27 2005) The hardest part is step 2 - it will require a lot of time, effort, perseverance and motivation.  You'll also need vision and skill, not only to design a mud that people are willing to pay for, but also to be able to develop it.

I completely agree with KaVir on that part.  I don't think most people who want to start-up their own "profitable" MUD ever sit down and think about that.  I think somewhere along the line they think they can do it all, and still deliver a successful game within a short amount of time.

I know I did  

Even if it only takes 1500 hours exactly to code a feature-rich successful MUD - meaning profitable - (and I think it takes much longer than that), people should realize the average "hobbist" programmer, meaning one who has other commitments - to pay bills etc. - usually only has about 20 hours a week to program on their game.

1500 hours total / 20 hours a week = 75 weeks for completion, or about 17-18 months.

And that doesn't include design time, testing time, time to build a website to enhance the game, advertising, etc.   That's why I think most dreams of building a profitable MUD won't succeed - because people fail from the beginning to plan accurately.  And for whatever reasons, they don't want to join together in teams to get the job done.

[the_logos]

Kavir basically has the right of it.

The only real expenses involved in starting a MUD is human labor. Yes, you might license an engine from someone (what I did starting out), may have to get a server, etc, but those all pale in comparison to what you'd have to pay yourself if you were doing that.

I don't know your personal situation, Fifi, but what you can expect is to have no life beyond garnering money to live and working on your MUD, for a couple years. I tell you, I can't say I look back with great fondness on that period of my life. I often wasn't sure how I was going to pay my rent or eat next month, and lived in basically one room where I slept and worked...and worked...and worked. I had to teach myself to code too, as the last time I had done any coding was 5 years earlier, in high school, and then only in Pascal.

So...

1. Work work work work. Work some more. Sleep is for the weak.

2. Open as soon as you have a semblance of a MUD. Don't really advertise at first as you don't want lots of people seeing the rather poor MUD you'll probably have at this stage, but do get some people who are willing to help and maybe some people who just want to play with whatever you have there. Psychologically, I found that it was very difficult to spend literally almost all my time working on a MUD for a couple years without any player feedback. I started feeling like it was just NEVER going to open, and that's a difficult feeling to deal with when you're working by yourself. So, involve other people as soon as possible. Teamwork is more fun.

3. Work some more. Keep working. Most important thing is not to give up. You definitely will not succeed if you give up. You can be pretty darn sure of that.

4. Remember that you're there to serve players, not the other way around.

I realize that my advice is so general as to feel like I'm holding some secrets or "real" advice back, but I'm not. There are only a few factors: How much you're willing to work, how capable you are at performing that work, how much what you've worked on appeals to players, and how well you can get the word out to players it will appeal to.

--matt

[Fifi]

Thank you for the advice. I'm not a coder. Though, there is an argument for learning. Currently, I am very happily working on a non-commercial mud, obviously not in a coding capacity. We are using the public version of SoI's code, (I'm constantly amazed by the generosity of many brilliant people.) T

his is obviously not a ever going to be commercial, and I am fine with that. I suppose more than wanting to make a living from mudding (of course getting paid to do what you like is attractive, but in this case nothing I would want to have to bank on. ) I suppose my true interest in a commercial project (in a team setting, I'd imagine) is that I think a commerical rpi would be good for the rpi community over all. I don't know if I should say this in a mudding format, but what I think would really have public appeal and work as a beacon to all the people out there who love fantasy novels and don't like leveling is an rpi mmorpg. I think people initially find graphics more accessable. I think it would raise awareness of rpis, and some of these people would eventually look at text games -people who might not try muds without having tried a graphical game first.

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (Fifi @ Oct. 27 2005,19:25) I don't know if I should say this in a mudding format, but what I think would really have public appeal and work as a beacon to all the people out there who love fantasy novels and don't like leveling is an rpi mmorpg. I think people initially find graphics more accessable. I think it would raise awareness of rpis, and some of these people would eventually look at text games -people who might not try muds without having tried a graphical game first.

Frankly, a text RPI is a better proposition business-wise than a graphical RPI. Reasonably intense roleplaying graphical games have been tried, such as Lyra Studio's Underlight. They are MUCH less successful compared to successful graphical MUDs than text RPI MUDs are compared to successful text MUDs.

The thing is, people who like fantasy novels (and there are lots of them) generally don't care about roleplaying. Roleplaying in the RPI sense is just an incredibly niche pursuit, and the cost of producing graphics makes any graphical product a LOT more expensive to produce than a text product.

--matt

[Fifi]

My first gaming experience was Underlight. I was a die-hard player for two years. I think their lack of success has more to do with how they compared to the larger markets. Not that they're not a good game, if it's what you like. But they weren't competitive. Graphically. Staff-wise. Size. Options. And they're not really an rpi, nor do I think the emphasis on RP was their downfall.

[prof1515]

Originally Posted by (Lanthum @ Oct. 27 2005,14:14) Originally Posted by (KaVir @ Oct. 27 2005) The hardest part is step 2 - it will require a lot of time, effort, perseverance and motivation.  You'll also need vision and skill, not only to design a mud that people are willing to pay for, but also to be able to develop it. I completely agree with KaVir on that part.  I don't think most people who want to start-up their own "profitable" MUD ever sit down and think about that.  I think somewhere along the line they think they can do it all, and still deliver a successful game within a short amount of time. I know I did   Even if it only takes 1500 hours exactly to code a feature-rich successful MUD - meaning profitable - (and I think it takes much longer than that), people should realize the average "hobbist" programmer, meaning one who has other commitments - to pay bills etc. - usually only has about 20 hours a week to program on their game. 1500 hours total / 20 hours a week = 75 weeks for completion, or about 17-18 months. And that doesn't include design time, testing time, time to build a website to enhance the game, advertising, etc.   That's why I think most dreams of building a profitable MUD won't succeed - because people fail from the beginning to plan accurately.  And for whatever reasons, they don't want to join together in teams to get the job done.

Nice to see someone agree with me on this point as I've had a few question my decision to hold off on actually beginning the coding/building phase on my MUD until I'd finished a good amount of world design and for planning on at least 18-24 months between the start of coding/building and opening. I was told "anything more than six months and it will fail" but I honestly don't believe that dedicated people concentrating on thorough quality is a recipe for failure. The opposite, quick construction and release, seems far worse to me.

Some nice discussion has evolved out of an old thread though, and it's a shame a new one wasn't started. So, I'm going to start one on this topic.

Take care,

Jason

[Rivalyn]

Originally Posted by (Fifi @ Oct. 27 2005,19:25) but what I think would really have public appeal and work as a beacon to all the people out there who love fantasy novels and don't like leveling is an rpi mmorpg.

The assumption there being that those that read fantasy novels would like to create/work towards the story instead of simply reading it.

[Fifi]

Originally Posted by (Rivalyn @ Oct. 27 2005,22:51) Originally Posted by (Fifi @ Oct. 27 2005,19:25) but what I think would really have public appeal and work as a beacon to all the people out there who love fantasy novels and don't like leveling is an rpi mmorpg. The assumption there being that those that read fantasy novels would like to create/work towards the story instead of simply reading it.

Not all of them. But there are millions of them. Even a small percentage translates to big numbers.

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (Fifi @ Oct. 27 2005,22:59) Not all of them. But there are millions of them. Even a small percentage translates to big numbers.

This is genuinely intended constructive criticism: One of the classic mistakes people make when planning a business is to proceed based on exactly what you said. I have heard, from multiple professional investors, jokes before about how many business plans they've read that say, "There are <x> people in this market. If we just capture 1% of it, we'll be rich!"

The intersection of people who read fantasy novels, people who like hardcore roleplaying, and people who want to play graphical MUDs is not very big. That's your potential market, and of course, it's only really possible to capture a relatively small percentage of that small market. That's in return for a minimum $20 million investment in order to create a competitive graphical MUD. Minimum. WoW was about 60 million (at a bottom estimate) including worldwide deployment costs.

And I mean, if you're saying that Underlight is relatively unsuccessful because it wasn't competitive in terms of graphics, staff, etc, then you may as well just give up hope now. $20 million for a hardcore roleplaying product is impossible to justify financially.

--matt

[Janus]

There are significant differences between the Achaean issue system, and the Imperian one, though the process itself is nearly identical. The main difference is the volume of issues, Achaea's being larger, due to the number of players, the different rules and the actual differences between the realms themselves. However, judgements on issues are not biased, but based on history, behaviour and assorted other information available to the Administrators. Any punishment recieved is not personal, but generally deserved, but regardless of this it is almost always the case that the punished feels they were wrongfully dealt with, by someone who clearly must hate them.

It's quite natural to project bias onto a 'faceless' system, but ultimately if you screw up, you get punished, you deserve it. Out of all of those punished, ever, a good 90% will complain they were mistreated and their issue clearly dealt with by a biased Administration. The heads of whatever game this claim is made on always take care to make sure that an issue is dealt with impartially, and if there were some biased judgements made, those making them would be quite quickly dealt with.

Ultimately, follow the rules, and you won't be punished. If you are... you've been naughty.

[Valg]

Juganothion/the_logos: A page of posts about why Juganothion is (deservedly or undeservedly) banned from one of your games is more appropriate for private communication.  Take it there. I've truncated some existing posts.

[Fifi]

Originally Posted by (the_logos @ Oct. 28 2005,03:43) Originally Posted by (Fifi @ Oct. 27 2005,22:59) Not all of them. But there are millions of them. Even a small percentage translates to big numbers. This is genuinely intended constructive criticism: One of the classic mistakes people make when planning a business is to proceed based on exactly what you said. I have heard, from multiple professional investors, jokes before about how many business plans they've read that say, "There are <x> people in this market. If we just capture 1% of it, we'll be rich!" The intersection of people who read fantasy novels, people who like hardcore roleplaying, and people who want to play graphical MUDs is not very big. That's your potential market, and of course, it's only really possible to capture a relatively small percentage of that small market. That's in return for a minimum $20 million investment in order to create a competitive graphical MUD. Minimum. WoW was about 60 million (at a bottom estimate) including worldwide deployment costs. And I mean, if you're saying that Underlight is relatively unsuccessful because it wasn't competitive in terms of graphics, staff, etc, then you may as well just give up hope now. $20 million for a hardcore roleplaying product is impossible to justify financially. --matt

I see your point. Shame really.

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by (Valg @ Oct. 31 2005,22:04) Juganothion/the_logos: A page of posts about why Juganothion is (deservedly or undeservedly) banned from one of your games is more appropriate for private communication.  Take it there.  I've truncated some existing posts.

Fantastic. Nice to see some moderation around here.

--matt