[Threshold]

Originally Posted by Molly I think the only way to attract players in the content of the site, outside the ranking lists would be to offer things there that really interest them - and also to treat their posts and opinions with some basic respect. (In that context I don't see attitudes such as the one displayed by Threshold helping much).

You might want to try occasionally posting without attacking or insulting someone. Just an idea.

I didn't treat anyone without respect. I made an honest evaluation of what I see from players. I'm not just pulling this out of nowhere, incidentally. I've been doing this professionally for over 11 years now.

The evidence shows that most players really don't care about MUDs in general - they care about THEIR MUD specifically. Take the case of TMC. It has been around forever. It is probably the most popular general MUD site on the net. It has clearly tried to cater to "the player" from the beginning. And what is the result? A forum that also lacks significant traffic - and certainly pales in comparison to the forum of even a modestly populated MUD.

The same was pretty much true back in the usenet days of rec.games.mud.* (man I miss usenet... such a better interface than web forums... but I digress). The majority of the traffic was developers or aspiring developers.

As a group, it is only developers, coders, builders, etc. who are interested enough in muds generally to actually participate in general forums like the ones here. The fact that TMS caters more towards mud operators is the major area where it distinguishes itself from TMC and actually justifies its existence as a separate site. Take that away, and it no longer has a USP.

[Brody]

Originally Posted by Threshold As a group, it is only developers, coders, builders, etc. who are interested enough in muds generally to actually participate in general forums like the ones here. The fact that TMS caters more towards mud operators is the major area where it distinguishes itself from TMC and actually justifies its existence as a separate site. Take that away, and it no longer has a USP.

I don't think anyone is advocating "taking away" the facet of TMS that allows developers to chat about our pet issues. We're just advocating "adding" other facets that cater to general player interest where we can.

[Emil]

Originally Posted by Threshold You might want to try occasionally posting without attacking or insulting someone. Just an idea.

So making sweeping insults to a large number of posters is OK, but when someone points out the potential negative impact, it becomes attacking or insulting someone? Try going back and reading your own posts. Just an idea.

Originally Posted by Threshold As a group, it is only developers, coders, builders, etc. who are interested enough in muds generally to actually participate in general forums like the ones here. The fact that TMS caters more towards mud operators is the major area where it distinguishes itself from TMC and actually justifies its existence as a separate site.

I don't see any significant difference in the audience that frequents TMC from here. In fact, it seeme so be more or less the same posters and discussions in both places, except that TMC usually is a bit more active and has a slightly better review system. Does anyone else see this alleged difference?

[Fizban]

Originally Posted by Lasher Although it received great feedback on release, the new forum is getting very little use.

Originally Posted by Ide Perhaps if the forum posts were front-paged a little more prominently you would suck more people into the site.

I agree, I have actually recently heard people that asked me, "Topmudsites has a forum?", when I mentioned something about being in another window and reading a post here when they tried to talking to me on a mud while i was browsing the forum.

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by Threshold You might want to try occasionally posting without attacking or insulting someone. Just an idea.

Some of your comments in this thread:

"I occasionally read a few reviews off the front page here, and the overwhelming majority of them are still fanboy/flame reviews. They are complete garbage."

"Moderating them MIGHT reduce the most extreme offenders, but the ones that get through will still mostly be junk."

"You will still have given these kinds of misanthropes a forum to spread their lies for however long the review is up"

"But the majority of reviews get written by people who are unbalanced for one reason or another."

"The people who actually end up taking the time to write reviews are more likely to either be blatant suckups or enraged haters."

"The more normal folks with less virulent opinions can't be bothered to post."

"That is why MUD reviews that are not written by "staff" are doomed to always be mostly junk."

To which Molly remarked:

"I don't see attitudes such as the one displayed by Threshold helping much"

And you have the gall to accuse her of attacking and insulting you?

I think you've made it pretty clear what you think of players who write reviews. However Molly is correct - if Lasher wants this site to appeal to players, then referring to those players as "unbalanced misanthropes" who write "complete garbage" to "spread their lies" is hardly going to make them feel welcome.

You've made it more than clear that you want the forums to remain as they are, but it's becoming equally clear that many other posters favour change. Rather than attacking those posters, how about showing us some of this "professionalism" you keep talking about, and try presenting your views in a civil manner? You might be a big fish on your own mud, but on here you're just another voice among many, and losing your temper doesn't make your arguments any more compelling.

[Threshold]

Originally Posted by KaVir And you have the gall to accuse her of attacking and insulting you?

Yes, and it shouldn't be hard for you to understand why. I made general statements about the fact that most of the reviews are of the fanboy or flame variety. I did not name any names. Molly attacked me personally. That is a very significant difference and I shouldn't have to explain it.

Originally Posted by KaVir I think you've made it pretty clear what you think of players who write reviews.

No. I have made it clear what I think of the reviews. There is a big difference. I think actual players of MUDs tend to be of above average intelligence, are generally very creative, and are certainly superior (as a group) to the general game or MMO population.

Originally Posted by KaVir You've made it more than clear that you want the forums to remain as they are, but it's becoming equally clear that many other posters favour change.

That is another factually incorrect statement since I have actually suggested specific changes that might attract the interest of more players. I have also made clear my belief that catering to players will not accomplish much, and could actually have a negative impact on the developer community that actually DOES use these forums.

Originally Posted by KaVir Rather than attacking those posters

I did not attack any posters. That is what... the third patently false thing you have attributed to me in this one post?

Originally Posted by KaVir how about showing us some of this "professionalism" you keep talking about, and try presenting your views in a civil manner?

Fortunately, every post I have made has been completely civil and professional. Unlike some respondents, I have not attacked anyone personally and I have not lied about things other people have posted. This even includes my reply to your brazen flurry of attacks directed at me. Apparently your definition of "civil" and "professional" is "a post that agrees with KaVir's opinion."

Originally Posted by KaVir losing your temper doesn't make your arguments any more compelling.

I have no idea what you are reading, but I have not lost my temper here. That is just a silly and (yet again) false accusation.

Since we all make text games, I do not think it is too much for me to expect that people actually READ the posts they are responding to and avoid attributing things to posters that they never wrote.

This thread is a great example of the real reason these forums are not very active. I posted some opinions, and because other people disagree, they have to savage me personally, lie about the things I posted, and then accuse me of being unprofessional, uncivil, and of losing my temper.

No wonder people don't want to post here. God forbid you have a different opinion than KaVir.

[Valg]

Originally Posted by Threshold Fortunately, every post I have made has been completely civil and professional.

Putting on my moderator hat for a moment, I can't say I agree. Having re-read the thread, it seems like I am not alone in this interpretation of your posts. Take some of the fire out of them in the future.

Molly's point, which I think is worth (civil) discussion, is that if a diverse group of site users (here, players who take the time to write reviews) are often negatively labeled or ridiculed, they're obviously not going to participate in the future. It's reasonable to assume that new contributors (articles, interesting forum posts, etc.) would come from users who were, initially, casual users.

It's analogous to keeping a MUD newbie-friendly. Maybe a new player comes on, and makes some suggestions that you personally aren't fond of. If you publicly blow that player off and say something like "New players' ideas are complete garbage.".... well, you aren't going to retain as many new players as you could.

[Emil]

Originally Posted by Threshold That is another factually incorrect statement since I have actually suggested specific changes that might attract the interest of more players. I have also made clear my belief that catering to players will not accomplish much, and could actually have a negative impact on the developer community that actually DOES use these forums.

Even if those two statements seem to immediately contradict one another, I'd be interested in seeing which 'specific changes that might attract the interest of more players' you've suggested. I must have missed those while browsing the posts.
Please specify.

[Threshold]

Originally Posted by Emil Even if those two statements seem to immediately contradict one another, I'd be interested in seeing which 'specific changes that might attract the interest of more players' you've suggested. I must have missed those while browsing the posts. Please specify.

Here you go. From earlier in this very thread:

Originally Posted by Threshold I think the only way to get players posting on TMS would be if you took the suggestion someone gave and let MUD admins have a sub-forum for their mud. Make them the moderator of it, and let them have up to 2-3 categories. Then you'll get people coming here to post about THEIR MUD with people from THEIR MUD. Then perhaps they'll browse over to some of the more general categories.

I have some other suggestions as well, but I've honestly resisted posting them because of the nature of this forum community. Any idea that is contrary to the Ruling Clique gets shouted down and the poster gets attacked personally until they just leave.

[Threshold]

Originally Posted by Valg Putting on my moderator hat for a moment, I can't say I agree. Having re-read the thread, it seems like I am not alone in this interpretation of your posts. Take some of the fire out of them in the future.

Of course you aren't alone. There are cliques on this forum that shout down anyone who doesn't agree with them. That's part of the reason the forum is so dead. Rule #1 in the handbook is attack the Evil Commercial Mud Operators (ECMO) by name, and then accuse THEM of being the one on the attack. It works every time too, because after a few days the ECMOs simply can't afford the time to keep responding.

I didn't attack, insult, or criticize a single person by name, though multiple people responded by attacking me by name. Multiple posters outright LIED about things I have done or said in this thread. And yet somehow I am the one who had too much "fire" in their posts? And this is with your "moderator hat" on? If you really want to put your "moderator hat" on, perhaps you should start by removing posts that attack me personally and directly?

This kind of "moderating" is yet another reason why these forums are so dead (and will remain dead unless something changes).

Originally Posted by Valg if a diverse group of site users (here, players who take the time to write reviews) are often negatively labeled or ridiculed, they're obviously not going to participate in the future.

(obvious sarcasm)

Oh no! You mean there will be less horribly biased reviews spamming the system and causing nothing but arguments and flamewars on the forums? That's terrible!

Originally Posted by Valg It's reasonable to assume that new contributors (articles, interesting forum posts, etc.) would come from users who were, initially, casual users.

I don't think it is reasonable to assume that at all. I think most review writers have a very explicit agenda that has absolutely nothing to do with contributing to the forums or writing articles.

My evidence for that is the content of the majority of the reviews and the fact that most of those review writers are not posters on the forums and have not submitted articles.

What is your evidence to the contrary?

Originally Posted by Valg It's analogous to keeping a MUD newbie-friendly. Maybe a new player comes on, and makes some suggestions that you personally aren't fond of. If you publicly blow that player off and say something like "New players' ideas are complete garbage.".... well, you aren't going to retain as many new players as you could.

It isn't analogous at all, because new players are actually a valuable resource. People writing terribly biased, overly subjective, flame/fanboy reviews aren't. Who cares if the people writing those terrible reviews stop writing them? That would actually IMPROVE the site. I think the site would be better if they got rid of reviews entirely. That feature adds nothing to TMS and doesn't distinguish it at all from other sites that already have more traffic in that area (like TMC).

TMS is distinguished by its voting lists, and by the fact that it has a forum with good software, and a readable layout. TMC and some other MUD sites have forums that look more like a hacked up guestbook than an actual forum.

Now, TMS can play to those strengths, or it can try to duplicate features already present on other sites that are already known as "the place" for that feature.

If Lasher wants to improve the traffic on the forum, my suggestions are:

1) Remove all existing moderators and start over with new ones. Keep the ones that are NEVER involved in flame wars or controversies. Similarly, pick new ones who are never involved in flame wars or controversies.

2) Instruct them to moderate heavily: No personal attacks... period. No attacking people by name... whatsoever.

3) Squelch the clique mentality that currently dominates what is left of the forum.

I would love for TMS to become more popular and more heavily trafficked. It really bothers me that there are no MUD related sites out there that generate significant amounts of traffic and buzz. It would be great for all of us if TMS could up its profile and its usage. But there really isn't any hope of that happening unless Lasher can put a stop to the personal attacks and break the crippling clique mentality here.

[KaVir]

I made general statements about the fact that most of the reviews are of the fanboy or flame variety. I did not name any names. Molly attacked me personally.

You referred to players who write reviews as "unbalanced misanthropes" who write "complete garbage" to "spread their lies". Those are insults.

Molly said "I don't see attitudes such as the one displayed by Threshold helping much". That is not an insult, but it is a very valid statement, particularly within the context of this thread.

Attitutes like yours are indeed the sort of thing that will discourage players from participating on the forums. You seem to be terrified of the idea that players might be able to write reviews about your game, and now I'm starting to understand why.

Since we all make text games, I do not think it is too much for me to expect that people actually READ the posts they are responding to and avoid attributing things to posters that they never wrote.

Every quote I attributed to you came from one of your posts. It's rather pointless to accuse me of lying when anyone reading this thread can simply scroll back and look at your posts themselves to confirm that you really did say those things.

[Threshold]

Originally Posted by KaVir You referred to players who write reviews as "unbalanced misanthropes" who write "complete garbage" to "spread their lies". Those are insults. nd look at your posts themselves to confirm that you really did say those things.

Can you please cite the NAME of the exact person I insulted?

Oh right. You can't.

Are you denying that people post "lies" in those reviews? Are you denying that there are no reviews in there that are "complete garbage"? Are you denying that some of those posters have a personal axe to grind when they write their review? Are you denying that some of those posters write their review to kiss up to the admins of their MUD? Can you deny that any of those things are false or inaccurate?

Oops. You can't do that either.

It isn't an insult to post the truth, and it certainly isn't an insult when talking about a generalized phenomenon rather than an individual.

Furthermore, it is my honest opinion of what happens when you have open reviews that can be posted by anyone. You get junk.

You can't "insult" an amorphous blob that has no name. To say I was insulting people is just ridiculous when I never mentioned a single name of a single person.

Originally Posted by KaVir You seem to be terrified of the idea that players might be able to write reviews about your game, and now I'm starting to understand why.

And there you go again with your direct personal attacks and insults. You just can't help yourself.

I really am sick of having honestly given opinions and suggestions responded to with personal attacks and direct insults.

I am officially done with this thread.

You win KaVir. Your campaign to destroy and ruin these forums continues, and I really don't have the time to combat it.

[the_logos]

Originally Posted by KaVir You referred to players who write reviews as "unbalanced misanthropes" who write "complete garbage" to "spread their lies". Those are insults. Molly said "I don't see attitudes such as the one displayed by Threshold helping much". That is not an insult, but it is a very valid statement, particularly within the context of this thread. Attitutes like yours are indeed the sort of thing that will discourage players from participating on the forums. You seem to be terrified of the idea that players might be able to write reviews about your game, and now I'm starting to understand why.

That's really exactly what he's talking about isn't it? You're accusing him of being 'terrified' and implying that it's because he has something to hide. Molly was doing the same thing earlier in the thread, writing, for instance, "It boggles me why some mud operators are so afraid of reviews. If you have any confidence in your own game - which you should if it is a good one - what is there to be afraid of? People are usually not that easily fooled, they will see through the disgruntled-player flames as well as the fanboy fluff."

It's got nothing to do with fear, of course, as is clear, I'm sure, to everyone interested in seeing both sides of the issue, so how about we stop throwing around the insults and implying that people who hold a different opinion (one backed up by considerable experience in some of our cases) have some sort of nefarious motives, or that their games are "bad" because they're coming from a position that she doesn't understand.

I mean really, do you have any idea how much work it'd be to actually be nefarious? I, for one, am far too lazy to bother.

--matt