[locke]

A new copy of NiMUD is now available at http://nimud.org/ that has been released under the Artistic License 2.0/GPL. Content is distributed under CCA 2.0 BY-SA


[Moderator Note: Users are strongly recommended to read this whole thread and draw your own conclusions before using this software]

[Samson]

I can't say I'm surprised you'd choose to take such a clearly illegal step. Any fleeting hope you might have had for redemption in this community just vanished with such a brazen theft of other peoples' work.

[locke]

Originally Posted by Samson I can't say I'm surprised you'd choose to take such a clearly illegal step. Any fleeting hope you might have had for redemption in this community just vanished with such a brazen theft of other peoples' work.

Thanks, Judge. Oh wait, you're not a representative of the law. I guess it doesn't matter what you or anyone else who posts who is not a judge thinks. Goodbye, troll.

[prof1515]

Originally Posted by locke Thanks, Judge. Oh wait, you're not a representative of the law. I guess it doesn't matter what you or anyone else who posts who is not a judge thinks. Goodbye, troll.

It's the duty of any responsible citizen not to ignore a crime when they see it. You, sir, are an idiot and a thief.

[locke]

These irrational, unfounded claims will not be responded to. Goodbye, troll.

If I haven't made it clear:
YouTube - Elmo dies shut the **** up

[Davion]

I have an honest question. In the license you stated it has this clause

5. You may charge a reasonable copying fee for any distribution of this Package. You may charge any fee you choose for support of this Package ...

But in the diku license it explicitly states

You may under no circumstances make profit on *ANY* part of DikuMud in any possible way. You may under no circumstances charge money for distributing any part of dikumud - this includes the usual $5 charge for "sending the disk" or "just for the disk" etc.

Can you explain how these conflictions are resolved?

[locke]

Originally Posted by Davion I have an honest question. In the license you stated it has this clause But in the diku license it explicitly states... (something about no charge for duplication) Can you explain how these conflictions are resolved?

Sure. The Diku license deals with DikuMUD. NiMUD is not DikuMUD. I've chosen this license because it is similar in that:

"Freely Available" means that no fee is charged for the item itself, though there may be fees involved in handling the item. It also means that recipients of the item may redistribute it under the same conditions they received it. 1. You may make and give away verbatim copies of the source form of the Standard Version of this Package without restriction, provided that you duplicate all of the original copyright notices and associated disclaimers.

So, it will protect the credits and is basically free. It also stipulates that artists who use the software will be able to sell their areas. This was the justification for the sale of ROP's Emlen -- that they were charging for the 'game' as an artistic expression which included many, many area files. This makes sense since areas are not part of the source code and it really is the work of other people. Regarding sale of areas: it doesn't mean that they have to, or that anyone has the right to charge for someone else's area. Since the stock NiMUD areas are released under CCA-3 BY-SA, you can't license them in a derivative under a different license than CCA-3 BY-SA.

Also, the issue with duplication -- well, we live in a time when duplication is not really an issue. We all have the net now (who speak English). At the time of the writing of the Diku license, there was no gaurantee that people didn't use floppy disks. Also, Diku is pointing out "unreasonable fees" like $5 which was a hefty profit back in 1989 -- I've needed to copy things for clients and I've charged them like $2 sometimes to pay a reasonable fee for the duplication effort. I don't have a problem with you doing that if you are selling a copy of NiMUD on disc, since that is a reasonable fee and does not provide any substantial profit for NiMUD itself. That doesn't mean you can sell copies at $5 because that sort of fee scale would be unreasonable. I highly doubt anyone will take advantage of this clause, anyway.

Side note: What's it like being dead?

[prof1515]

Originally Posted by Davion Can you explain how these conflictions are resolved?

They're not resolved. He is a liar and a thief who is violating the Diku license because he hasn't the intelligence to understand or the morals to care.

[locke]

Davion
Locke touches your head and you feel energized.

[Davion]

Originally Posted by prof1515 They're not resolved. He is a liar and a thief who is violating the Diku license because he hasn't the intelligence to understand or the morals to care.

I just wanted to make sure that he is actually claiming that NiMUD is no longer a derivative of DikuMUD and no longer is required to abide by any license other than he sees fit.

[Samson]

Quoted from his Google project page:

A transformitive work of Merc/Diku MUD called NiMUD released under the Artistic License/GPL. NiM5 is an advanced multi-user gaming server. Welcome to NiM5, this server was written by Herb Gilliland; the project began in 1992 and continues to this day. NiM5 was the first to release an open-source multi-user gaming software compatible with Merc/Diku mud that included such advanced features as OLC. NiM5 contains 12800 hours of work and you are benefiting, please keep our credits in your respective documentation.

That transformative work language is a crock of **** as there's not a single thing I've been able to find that indicates it's even a valid concept in copyright law, US or otherwise. Google search comes up with nothing but proposals from some wackjobs who want to allow fan-fic writers to steal income from the franchises they derive their works from and deprive the original authors of their rights. there's not a single viable link into a law reference or court prescedent anywhere I can find that would qualify what he's done as "fair use" under any interpretation.

However, it appears as though nobody gives a **** and I'm merely wasting my time even raising objection to this. The signal is being sent loud and clear - apparently Vryce style code theft is endorsed widely because that's precisely what we have here.

[locke]

Originally Posted by Samson The signal is being sent loud and clear - apparently Vryce style code theft is endorsed widely because that's precisely what we have here.

I imagine your Texas accent "Da signawl is bein' sent lawd and cler" -- this is not at all like the case of Medievia and Vryce. Medievia was "60% original", NiMUD is probably around 90% original. Also, you forget that Diku did borrow its ideas from TSR and Infocom, and the Bartle MUD. There was a rumor that it was built from talker, but that was just a rumor. No one lives in true isolation. Also, NiMUD is not being charged for. So, it's not at all the same or similar.

Also, I have never seen a single court document requiring Vryce to do anything. Does anyone know where that is? All I've seen is anecdotal evidence that there even was a problem. Granted, I know it curled some toes, but, years later, does that perspective really hold true today? At the time, though, I had heard there was a court case. Was that a rumor or is there really an official judgement about that?

Regardless, if it happened or not (and I tend to believe it did) it's not exactly relevant. That case occurred a long time ago and would have happened on a lower level, so there is little doubt it is not in the current "zeitgeist" of caselaw. Anyway, it certainly wasn't something that I felt I was repeating.

[Samson]

Sorry. Your fancy doublespeak got garbled up and came out as "blah blah blah I stole it and you can all go to hell" blah blah blah.

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by Samson However, it appears as though nobody gives a **** and I'm merely wasting my time even raising objection to this. The signal is being sent loud and clear - apparently Vryce style code theft is endorsed widely because that's precisely what we have here.

The situation is somewhat different, in that Vryce claimed his mud wasn't a derivative because it no longer contained any Diku code - therefore the arguments in that case primarily revolved around similarites, and my comparison was intended to draw attention to the large quantities of identical code.

However there's not really anything to prove in Locke's case, because even he admits that his mud is based on Diku, and contains large amounts of Diku code. We've already explained to him that what he's doing is illegal, but he doesn't care, and it's not really as if his reputation could get much worse anyway.

I suppose someone could fire off an email to the FSF and tell them that he's violating the GPL...but other than that, our options are pretty much limited to throwing rotten fruit.

[Samson]

Already tried contacting the FSF. They said they won't act on it unless the Diku team tells them to, or unless they hold the copyright. I'm not sure the person who responded even understood the problem, but in the end, it seems they can't or won't pursue it without say-so from the Diku team.

So unless they're willing to step up for once and defend what's theirs, Locke is going to get away with this.

[scandum]

It's well known that in order for a codebase to be succesful it needs to have a large player base, and NiMUD has no player base to speak of.

So my question is, if Locke violates Diku in the woods, and there's nobody around to hear, will it make a sound?

[KaVir]

It's not just about Locke, it also effects anyone else who downloads his codebase - they may not even know it's an illegal distribution.

[locke]

Originally Posted by KaVir It's not just about Locke, it also effects anyone else who downloads his codebase - they may not even know it's an illegal distribution.

Well, I'm talking to Hans in email and he said:

"Why exactly are they claiming you stole anything (I assume they mean that you are in violation of the license, instead of theft, which is not exactly equivalent legally)?"

As for "player bases make mud codebases" -- that's just not true. First of all, there is no term "codebase" -- instead, there is a term "software package" -- secondly, the amount of work in the source code has to do with how the code is made, not the number of players active at any given time. If that were true, Merc 2.0c would not be considered important because very few if any MUDs use that code.

[scandum]

Originally Posted by KaVir It's not just about Locke, it also effects anyone else who downloads his codebase - they may not even know it's an illegal distribution.

Like I said, I don't think that's going to happen.

Originally Posted by locke As for "player bases make mud codebases" -- that's just not true.

History shows different, pretty much every successful codebase started out as a popular mud.

One of the reasons for this is that starting with a codebase you've never played has a much steeper learning curve than working on a codebase you've actively played for years.

Given NiMUD is substantially different from any popular mud in existence the chances of someone starting work on a NiMUD derivative is close to zero. It's more likely that someone will grab NiMUD code and plug it into something else, as was the case with OLC.

[locke]

Originally Posted by scandum Like I said, I don't think that's going to happen. History shows different, pretty much every successful codebase started out as a popular mud.

The Isles was popular before it released its OLC features. It had 20 players online at any given time, and had only been around for a few months. CthulhuMUD had about 5 players at any given time and was its direct predecessor. I also ran/developed this. It had OLC, and it also had something called "ritualistic magic" -- (It is not the CthulhuMUD that is out there today.)

The Isles reached a second height of popularity a few years later when it was an RP intensive MUD during the period that I collaborated with Morgenes of Aldara ]I[. Aside from this, its OLC features are immensely popular and have had tens of thousands of users.

Using your logic, Bartle's MUD II would be an example of a "failed" and irrelevant MUD. I think you're just wrapping insults up with glossy paper.

Originally Posted by scandum Given NiMUD is substantially different from any popular mud in existence the chances of someone starting work on a NiMUD derivative is close to zero. It's more likely that someone will grab NiMUD code and plug it into something else, as was the case with OLC.

Well, it's not really possible to plug an entire mud into to something else. Parts of it, maybe (and have been such as HIT_FUN or other subsystems) -- it doesn't use the same types and requires painstaking redeployment procedures. Significant (reverse?) engineering would have to occur to get it to work with a MERC. See "installing NiMScripts in Merc" doc that is floating around out there and you will see the differences.

Furthermore, there have been 4 derivatives and one hugely popular MUD that have came out of this project. The four derivatives are: eWar (Emlen based), FateMUD (Emlen based, not distributed), Midpoint Void (NiMUD derivation point) and EmlenMUD I (Midpoint Void based). Additionally, there was the immensely popular "ROP" or "Rites of Passage" which had supposedly 90+ people online at any given time according to the administrators and former players.

Any source code derivative of NiMUD source code must adhere to the AL 2.0 license and be released under AL 2.0. It's protected. Prior versions such as the ones on ftpgame.org are under the Diku/Merc/NiMUD license tree. I can't really speak to those versions except to say that they are depreciated.

[Fizban]

Originally Posted by locke NiMUD is not DikuMUD.?

Err? Are you really dense enough to be trying to claim that NiMUD is not derived from Merc and therefore indirectly from DIKU? I assure you, codebases which are derived from DIKU still are licensed under the DIKU license.

Originally Posted by Davion Can you explain how these conflictions are resolved?

As a general rule when two licenses conflict the stricter of the two takes precedence. In this case it is a moot point as licensing DIKU derived material as GPL is hands down, 100%, illegal.

Originally Posted by locke All I've seen is anecdotal evidence that there even was a problem.

The DIKU Team had access to a copy of Medievia's code and stated with 100% certainty that it was DIKU derived.

Originally Posted by locke Aside from this, its OLC features are immensely popular and have had tens of thousands of users.

You'd be hard pressed to prove that there are even ten thousand mudders today. There are absolutely not ten thousand MUD admin today, let alone ten thousand using OLC's derived from NiMUD's.

[Samson]

Originally Posted by Fizban Err? Are you really dense enough to be trying to claim that NiMUD is not derived from Merc and therefore indirectly from DIKU? I assure you, codebases which are derived from DIKU still are licensed under the DIKU license.

Yes, he is dense enough. Go look at his Google project page: nimud - Google Code

As a general rule when two licenses conflict the stricter of the two takes precedence. In this case it is a moot point as licensing DIKU derived material as GPL is hands down, 100%, illegal.

Those of us who are sane know this, but I think we've pretty well established Locke is not sane.

[locke]

That quote about precedence is not on my project page.

[locke]

Originally Posted by Fizban You'd be hard pressed to prove that there are even ten thousand mudders today. There are absolutely not ten thousand MUD admin today, let alone ten thousand using OLC's derived from NiMUD's.

Um, ok dude. I think the OLC has had 10,000+ users since 1993 easily. There have been as many as 20000 active muds before, so this number is pretty low.


Merc, Rot, Rom, Emlen, Nimuds currently listed on mudconnect: ~200

Lets say 2 people use OLC per mud, that means there are at least 400 users currently using OLC, probably more since 2 is a conservative figure. Plus, it doesn't include QuickMUD or 1stMUD listings.

Search Results: 211 listings found for your search Arcane Nites [[Rom] Major Modifications] Top Mud Sites - MUD and RPG Rankings - Mud Database, RPG & MUD Forums, MUD Articles, MUD Reviews [[Rom]] Top Mud Sites - MUD and RPG Rankings - Mud Database, RPG & MUD Forums, MUD Articles, MUD Reviews [[Envy] 30% Envy, 70% Custom] Arion: the Nightmare [[Rom] Extremely heavily modified since 2003] Ark of the Covenant [[Rom] Heavily Modified Rom2.4b4a] The Adventurers' Inn [[Rom] Completely modified and updated] Adventures for Ancient Wisdom [[Dikumud] Diku/Envy/Merc with a twist] Adventures Unlimited [[Rom] 2.4b6(pretty darn good)] Aladon MUD [[Rom] ROM 2.4 modified] Ancient Mists [[Rom] Heavily Modified] Anime Planet [[Rot] Anime Planet [Heavily Modified Rot1.4]] Top Mud Sites - MUD and RPG Rankings - Mud Database, RPG & MUD Forums, MUD Articles, MUD Reviews [[Rom] Authentic AnimeMUD Code Base] Anodyne III [[Dikumud] Merc 2.1/SQ 0.63]

Oh by the way I forgot about VoRMUD (Void of Reality) which is a NiMUD derivative bringing the number of derivatives to 5, and I also forgot the italian translation of NiMUD made by Fabrizio Baldi, it is called Lyonesse 1.0 and is now bringing the number to 6.

[locke]

Originally Posted by Fizban The DIKU Team had access to a copy of Medievia's code and stated with 100% certainty that it was DIKU derived.

This is not a court order, then. Hey did you know that "Diku concepts" can't be copyrighted, patented or trademarked? That part of their license falls out of any jurisdictive governance.

[Samson]

Originally Posted by locke Merc, Rot, Rom, Emlen, Nimuds currently listed on mudconnect: ~200 Lets say 2 people use OLC per mud, that means there are at least 400 users currently using OLC, probably more since 2 is a conservative figure. Plus, it doesn't include QuickMUD or 1stMUD listings.

This assumption is based on there being any shred of believable evidence that you wrote the OLC all those codebases use. Since no such evidence exists, it's entirely possible the number of people using your OLC is exactly 1: Yourself.

The Diku team also does not need a court order to view code that's been provided to them and certify that the code is in fact theirs.

And I don't think anyone here believes for one second that you're in communication with them on this because I'm pretty sure they'd tell you you can go to hell for trying to steal their code the way you are right now.

[locke]

Originally Posted by Samson This assumption is based on there being any shred of believable evidence that you wrote the OLC all those codebases use. Since no such evidence exists, it's entirely possible the number of people using your OLC is exactly 1: Yourself.

This is an existentialist argument like "Am I really here or is this just a hallucination?"

Evidence:

1) You know that the ROMolc, EnvyOLC and ILAB/OLCs all come with my name on it.

2)

Originally Posted by Copyright.gov Type of Work: Computer File Registration Number / Date: TX0006452128 / 2006-10-27 Title: Online creation ; Isles OLC ; ILAB OLC ; NIMUD OLC, et al. Copyright Claimant: Herbert Elwood Gilliland 3rd, 1977- Date of Creation: 1993 Date of Publication: 1993-10-15 Authorship on Application: text of software code: Herbert Elwood Gilliland 3rd & Christopher Woodward, 1976-1995. Copyright Note: Cataloged from appl. only. Other Title: Isles OLC ILAB OLC NIMUD OLC Names: Gilliland, Herbert Elwood 3rd, 1977- Woodward, Christopher, 1976-1995 ================================================== ==============================

The US Copyright office reviewed this and approved it. (notice the period)

Originally Posted by Samson The Diku team also does not need a court order to view code that's been provided to them and certify that the code is in fact theirs.

Well yes -- they do! Otherwise, it's been handled out of court and is not certified. It's hard to ask for tangible remuneration from free software unless Vryce made money. If he made money, then they have grounds to sue. If he did not, it's hardly worth the court's time, is it?

[Fizban]

Originally Posted by locke and I also forgot the italian translation of NiMUD made by Fabrizio Baldi, it is called Lyonesse 1.0 and is now bringing the number to 6.

Umm? No. Lyonesse is a CircleMUD/Smaug derivative (a combination of the two) which features Oasis OLC.

[Fizban]

Originally Posted by locke If he made money, then they have grounds to sue. If he did not, it's hardly worth the court's time, is it?

Vryce made enough money off of Medievia to supprt his household. He admitted as much on several occasions.

[locke]

Originally Posted by Fizban Umm? No. Lyonesse is a CircleMUD/Smaug derivative (a combination of the two) which features Oasis OLC.

Originally Posted by multiplayer.it Codici dei MUD: Lyonesse La maggior parte dei codici che si puo' trovare in rete non e' certo italiana. I MUD italiani, infatti, nonostante magari le numerose modifiche apportate al codice base, sono sempre stati piuttosto gelosi della propria creatura, non rendendo mai disponibile il sorgente modificato. Il primo codice italiano a noi noto e' quindi Lyonesse 1.0 (ad esso poi sono seguiti altri progetti di cui si parlera' in seguito), nato, piuttosto recentemente, dalla manipolazione del CircleMUD, principalmente, e dalla commistione di altri spunti e caratteristiche di altri codici, come Smaug, NiMUD 4.0, MagmaMUD 3.0 e World of Greyhawk. Numerose sono le caratteristiche interessanti di questo codice, oltre all'ambientazione e alle aree, che come e' perfettamente intuibile, sono legate all'Atlantide celtica, Lyonesse appunto. Il codice della Wilderness e quello del Sistema Economico, soprattutto, sono le caratteristiche più interessanti di Lyonesse. Non e' presente la possibilita' di costruire il mondo online (OLC, caratteristica tanto agognata per molti MUD e fornita dal codice Smaug). Fra le altre caratteristiche si possono annoverare, ad esempio, un sistema atmosferico globale, i veicoli e la navigazione, una nuova gestione della morte, le cavalcature e il sistema magico basato sulla memorizzazione degli incantesimi. Un altro dato piuttosto insolito e' il fatto che LyonesseMUD e' stato sviluppato sotto Windows con MS Visual C++, il che, necessariamente porta le possibilita' di portabilita' a ridursi ulteriormente, se non si e' in grado di apportare gli opportuni aggiustamenti in modalita' "casalinga".

Originally Posted by Google translate: Most of the codes that you can 'find online is not' some Italian. I MUD italiani, in fact, perhaps despite the numerous changes to the code base, have always been rather jealous of his creatures, not ever making available the modified source. The first Italian code and known to us' then Lyonesse 1.0 (then it was followed by other projects which will be discussed 'below), was born, quite recently, the manipulation CircleMUD, mainly, and the co-mingling of other ideas and characteristics of other codes, like Smaug, NiMUD 4.0, MagmaMUD 3.0 and World of Greyhawk. There are many interesting features of this code, in addition to the areas and that as' perfectly understood, are tied all'Atlantide Celtic Lyonesse note. The code of the Wilderness and the Economic System, in particular, are the most interesting features of Lyonesse. Is not 'this the chance' to build the world online (OLC, a much sought after feature for many MUD and code provided by Smaug). Among other features could include, for example, a global air pollution, vehicles and shipping, a new management of death, the mounts and the magic system based on memorization of spells. Another rather unusual, 'the fact that LyonesseMUD and' was developed under Windows with MS Visual C + +, which necessarily leads to the possibility 'of portability' to fall further, and if you do not 'able to make the necessary adjustments in mode ' "housewife."

It seems to be still actively developed. A long time ago it (~1999?) was NiMUD 4.0 as the base (Thus, it was originally using my OLC and server) .. note: it talks about OLC here, but I haven't found either Smaug building or OLC in the code. I assume it now has CircleMUD building (Oasis OLC) -- but I can't seem to find exactly where that is. It purports to have taken obj_to_obj() from Smaug.