[Threshold]

Originally Posted by (Jaewyn @ Feb. 05 2004,16:33) Regards of what is said by anyone here, everyone will reach their own conclusion. If anyone is really THAT interested in what transpired, why not contact the parties involved directly, instead of dragging it out here.

Because as I already noted previously, I feel like the MUD community has a right to know exactly what transpired here.

A lot of people and MUDs were affected by these very inappropriate actions (blocking each other) and every MUDer (admin or player) deserves the details.

Anyone who might consider hosting with either of these companies certainly has a right to know what happened here so they can make an informed decision when selecting a mud host.

[tresspassor]

I agree with Threshold, not only is it important to the "Community" but it is a good PR move that ANY company would do.

Dirty laundry gets aired in the public, the company immediately makes a general "We didn't do anything wrong, here is our version of the story" statement.

Like when Half Life 2 was leaked, they didn't just stuff it under the carpet... or when Dakitana had to rebuild their entire system using the Quake engine. Rumors will get out and if a company doesn't work to eliminate them they wind up looking really bad in the long run.

Since the news is out I think it is important that Kyndig releases some sort of statement for their own good.

So far all I know about Kyndig is that they took my game off their system because I was a Wolfpaw customer (true or not I don't know because they haven't said anything)... Now usually when people ask who a good hosting provider is I would say something like "Oh, kyndig and wolfpaw are the two largest that I know of" Now I'm not so inclined to put Kyndig in that statement unless they back themselves up a bit.

Oh, and to add I think TMS is the best place to have this discussion because it isn't "aligned" (at least as far as I know) with the two companies).

*shrug*

[Xorith]

So this is what the MUD community is like?

Well fine, a few opinions of my own. (Since I know they're so valued anyway)

I've avoided Wolfpaw for hosting due to (what I felt) very high costs for very little in return. Admittedly, I might be wrong. Given that I was a MudMagic customer (and still am for web hosting), I have no complaints on how competent of a host they are. I never waited long when I was in need of help, and also admittedly, most times I needed help cleaning up after my own stupidity.

In short, if you're attacking a hosting company, or if we'd like to get back to the whole 'war' between two companies, MudMagic.com is very fair price-wise and *very* helpful and respectful to their customers. Those who say that they're doing an injustice to their customers should perhaps become one before making such statements? I'd prefer this rather than you putting words in my mouth, as well as other loyal customers of a company that has done no wrong to them.

Now this war is very counter productive, but it brings into light something sickening about this community. So just how badly can one person get burned for expressing his own views to the wrong people? If I think, say (as an example) that Wolfpaw sucks. Now, will this opinion burn me from ever being welcome on TMC's list? If so, that'd also burn me from being listed in zMUD's MUD list too. This is quite backwards, is it not? The country I live in allows freedom of expression, and this community gives the impression that it's not valid here.

Now there's been some obvious ego-stroking in this thread. No offense, KaVir, but you can't help but to speak up when you see a chance. Nothing wrong with this, but if we cut out the 'back-and-forth', the thread becomes *much* smaller, and a lot more on the point.

The_logos - The question is valid. If you had to contact Kyndig personally, then why did you decide to post? Surely the advertising this is generating for you (since your signature has your MUDs' links in it) is decent enough. In all fairness, given that you're one of the few MUD admins here who make money off of their game, that maybe you'd share the wealth? Probably not. Well do enjoy the free advertising.

Kyndig (should you read this) if any of what has been said by Wolfpaw is true, I would highly recommend you settle it. This also goes for Wolfpaw. You both earn income from the very community you're both working to destroy by petty childish behavior.

Samson was right. This has gone on too much, but I couldn't resist my own two-cents from being added. What's more sad is I'm curious how many new-comers to the community will eventually wind up on threads like this, and wonder if it's worth joining into a pack of rabid, wild dogs? That's how it seems.

-- Xorith

[Valaria]

Xorith wrote:

Originally Posted by The_logos - The question is valid. If you had to contact Kyndig personally, then why did you decide to post? Surely the advertising this is generating for you (since your signature has your MUDs' links in it) is decent enough. In all fairness, given that you're one of the few MUD admins here who make money off of their game, that maybe you'd share the wealth? Probably not. Well do enjoy the free advertising.

If I recall correctly, Logos said his email was blocked by Mudmagic.com's spam filter which he cannot directly email to kydnig himself. just a thought to clear up. Hope i am not that mistake. ^_^


Regards,
Valaria

[Xorith]

*sigh* Read the posts before replying...

It's already been pointed out that there is a private message feature with this forum code, and since Kyndig is a member, the_logos would have been able to still contact Kyndig privately.

Thank you for not paying attention.
(Sorry if I sound bitter )

-- Xorith

[Yui Unifex]

Originally Posted by (Xorith @ Feb. 05 2004,21:13) In short, if you're attacking a hosting company, or if we'd like to get back to the whole 'war' between two companies, MudMagic.com is very fair price-wise and *very* helpful and respectful to their customers. Those who say that they're doing an injustice to their customers should perhaps become one before making such statements? I'd prefer this rather than you putting words in my mouth, as well as other loyal customers of a company that has done no wrong to them.

First hand experience is such a time-consuming way to make decisions that a gargantuan amount of human effort is spent delegating these decisions away. Nevertheless, supposing that "MudMagic.com is very fair price-wise and *very* helpful and respectful to their customers" does not justify the act of blocking another network. It may to you, but you're obviously not the only one with an opinion on what's important here.

Originally Posted by (Xorith @ Feb. 05 2004,21:13) The_logos - The question is valid. If you had to contact Kyndig personally, then why did you decide to post? Surely the advertising this is generating for you (since your signature has your MUDs' links in it) is decent enough. In all fairness, given that you're one of the few MUD admins here who make money off of their game, that maybe you'd share the wealth? Probably not. Well do enjoy the free advertising.

He answered this question in his reply to my post:

Originally Posted by (the_logos @ 3rd post!) This kind of behavior affects all their customers anyway so it's relevant here regardless.

As much as I enjoy sticking it to The Man, I don't think that advertising was a motive here.

[Azeroth]

Ok, I think the entire point has been missed here.

1. It's irrelavent if the_logos only chooses to place posts of a flaming nature on this board.
2. It's irrelavent if there are those here who do not like the_logos.
3. Our opinions and likes/dislikes concerning the_logos is irrelavent.

The only objection I have seen that *might* be relevant, is the board the post was placed on.  

Getting to the point of my post...I am not the first one in favor of "mud slinging", or dragging anyone's name through the dirt.  And I can not prove that any of these claims are true.  But *IF* they are, I think it's very relevant to the Mu*ing community.  If two Mu*hosts are having a "war" of sorts, this is very good information to provide the community.  I don't have any personal agendas or grudges against the two parties involved.  I personally host my mud with one of the newbies of the Mu*hosting community (and have been very satisfied).  I don't care to see either of them flamed, or to see either of them cleared.  But when someone posts something of this nature...let's consider it, discuss it...whatever.  But why must you just begin attacking whoever has posted it?  Just an observation.

[John]

6-->

Originally Posted by (Threshold @ Feb. 05 2004,16[img http://www.topmudsites.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif[/img]6)]I am interested in hearing the other side of the story and I feel the entire MUD community is entitled to an explanation.

The MUD community is entitled to nothing. Paying customers who currently use these services are entitled to an explanation. They are the only ones. A pet peeve of mine is when people believe the community has a "right" or is "entitled" to something when I believe they don't I see it time and again, and a lot of the time it is agreed by most that they aren't entitled to an explanation.

Having said that, yes, I'd like an explanation and it's a good PR move. But by no means are they obligated to give us an explanation.

I find these soap dramas with Logos, Kavir and <insert group(s) here> entertaining and very revealing of the MU* community.

Originally Posted by Xorith wrote: The country I live in allows freedom of expression

There is no such thing as freedom of speech on the internet. That's why most boards have active mods.

[Threshold]

Originally Posted by (John @ Feb. 06 2004,03:19) The MUD community is entitled to nothing. A pet peeve of mine is when people believe the community has a "right" or is "entitled" to something when I believe they don't

Wrong.

Kyndig/MudMagic uses these forums to generate business.

If he has engaged in extremely unethical or illegal business practices, the people who provide him the source of free advertising deserve an explanation.

Furthermore, if the allegations are true, his actions harm the ENTIRE MUD COMMUNITY by creating an exceptionally hostile environment between major hosting companies. That is bad for the entire market.

That is why the entire community is owed an explanation.

[Xorith]

Originally Posted by There is no such thing as freedom of speech on the internet. That's why most boards have active mods.

Dear gods, man. The Internet is one of the largest sources for free speech. Look around, take a good hard look at the results on Google the next time you do a search. The Internet is the one place where people can come and share their opinions behind the protective facade of being anonymous. Your statement carries only an assumption of what most websites are like.

Originally Posted by First hand experience is such a time-consuming way to make decisions that a gargantuan amount of human effort is spent delegating these decisions away. Nevertheless, supposing that "MudMagic.com is very fair price-wise and *very* helpful and respectful to their customers" does not justify the act of blocking another network. It may to you, but you're obviously not the only one with an opinion on what's important here.

I'm not one to play devil's advocate, but seeing as I never felt this massive block, I can't very well use it as a basis for completely flaming a MUD Host. I have my own issues with MUD hosts these days. Given that I've had a host hose their entire hard drive while NOT making the CD backups I was paying for, well that takes the cake. This is nothing compared to losing a year's worth of building and coding. I'd have had a backup if I got what I paid for, and if my home machine wasn't *also* down. As far as inter-network wars, it only hurts them both. For Dale to post evidence of how childish both he and Kyndig can act, it serves neither any good. If I need a host now, I'm more than likely going to go to Arthmoor - a hosting company that hasn't displayed prime examples of childish behavior.

My point in all this, that seems to have been missed by the natural need for people to throw attacks, is that both companies are at fault for their own childish behaviors. It shouldn't have gone public because It shouldn't even have gone this far. For the most part, we're adults here. Why are we acting like this? This damned thread is a prime example of just how backwards the entire community is.

Good gods people.

-- Xorith

[tresspassor]

Melodrama aside, I don't see how wanting to know the full story is backwards.

This isn't a flame thread; most people here are posting in a rather civil manner. I don't see anything along the lines of "OMG Kyndig Sucks!!1".

As far as I am concerned the customers (Wolfpaw and Kyndig) are the ones stuck in the middle of this. That is wrong, and I don't see why bringing up how wrong it is makes this thread a Flame at Kyndig.

I appreciate that Dale gave an explanation about the story. Some people argue that it should have never been opened to the public but let's get real for a second:

Every Wolfpaw customer got 4 emails from Kyndig stating that they could not connect to their game and the game would be removed from the system. When Kyndig shut down all Wolfpaw accounts it BECAME PUBLIC.

Originally Posted by -----Original Message----- From: MudMagic.Com [mailto:staff@mudmagic.com] Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 10:00 PM Subject: Warning, Game Down? This is a courtesy email to inform you that our database engine at MudMagic.Com has been unable to connect to Halogen:bleach for the past three days. The Host and port which we are attempting to connect to is: halogenbleach.com : 7777 If this information is not correct, please visit your Game Admin Panel at: http://www.mudmagic.com/listings/game/360/admin to update your host. Thankyou for listing your game with MudMagic.Com, Embrace The Addiction! -----Original Message----- From: MudMagic.Com [mailto:staff@mudmagic.com] Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 10:00 PM Subject: Warning Prior To Deletion This is a courtesy email to inform you that our database engine at MudMagic.Com has been unable to connect to Halogen:bleach for the past 15 days. The Host and port which we are attempting to connect to is: halogenbleach.com : 7777 In order to continue providing the most up to date online text game listing for the community, we periodically purge inactive game sites. Your game list entry is slotted for deletion in 15 more days. If this information is not correct, please visit your Game Admin Panel at: http://www.mudmagic.com/listings/game/360/admin to update your host. Thankyou for listing your game with MudMagic.Com, Embrace The Addiction! -----Original Message----- From: MudMagic.Com [mailto:staff@mudmagic.com] Sent: Friday, December 26, 2003 10:00 PM Subject: Final Warning Prior To Deletion This is a courtesy email to inform you that our database engine at MudMagic.Com has been unable to connect to Halogen:bleach for the past 28 days. The Host and port which we are attempting to connect to is: halogenbleach.com : 7777 In order to continue providing the most up to date online text game listing for the community, we periodically purge inactive game sites. Your game list entry is slotted for deletion in 15 more days. If this information is not correct, please visit your Game Admin Panel at: http://www.mudmagic.com/listings/game/360/admin to update your host. Thankyou for listing your game with MudMagic.Com, Embrace The Addiction! -----Original Message----- From: MudMagic.Com [mailto:staff@mudmagic.com] Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2003 10:01 PM Subject: Halogen:bleach Deleted from MudMagic.Com Thankyou for your past entry in MudMagic.Com game list database. We hope it brought you a few new players. If at any time you decide to once more open your site, we would be honored to have your entry in our database. Welcome To Your New Addiction, MudMagic.Com

So, you have all these people asking Wolfpaw "Hey man, what's up? Why can't Kyndig talk to my game? Some crazy firewall issue or what?"

Wolfpaw released a statement about the situation, this is what a good company is SUPPOSED TO DO. What else would you have them do?

Hindsight would dictate that the easiest answer to this problem is "Never have gotten into this in the first place" That's not an answer and is completely meaningless at this point.

The situation did happen and there is no time machine, Kyndig did ban all Wolfpaw accounts from his game listing. Now what would you do if you ran Wolfpaw and you have your customers asking you what's going on?

I don't see how saying this makes me out to be flaming Kyndig. I'm just telling what actually happened. I'm not trying to convince people not to go to Kyndig, I just want an answer as to why my game was taken off their list. I have nothing bad to say about Kyndig's pricing, customer service, or uptime because I don't know anything about them!

I want to know if the story is true, and if it is I think all Wolfpaw & Kyndig customers, and the Comunity, deserve an apology.

[the_logos]

My apologies for posting again, since certain members of TMS seem offended anytime I do post, but I wanted to simply say that Kyndig resolved the issue with the particular server of his (indecent.mudmagic.com) in a polite and expedient manner, and apologized for any trouble caused.

Funny how certain forum members got all riled up at my post when Kyndig, to whom it was directed, just fixed the problem.

--matt

[Jaewyn]

I'm taking a stab in the dark here, but somewhow I think what riled people up was title used for the topic. "Mudmagic: get it together., Stop the childish crap."

I can see how people might view that as a flame, but it doesn't matter now because it's all sorted out, isn't it?