Re: The Cold Hard Facts
 

Really not. I think anyone can see that everyone concerned about the meaning of "free" decided early on that the word itself was useless as a yes/no category, and knowing anything useful about the "freeness" of a game required some finer gradation of meaning.

Why in the world is it SO important to stop people from having easy access to this information? Really, it's disgusting. I've lost so much respect for commercial MUD operation, throughout this, because of the way it apparently compels one to fight tooth and nail against anything that interferes with the ability to perform misleading advertising.

Re: The Cold Hard Facts
 

Great. So what? Doesn't change whether it's a good idea. The voice from the players who have spoken up has been consistently "yeah, I'd like to be able to know that" -- and why wouldn't it be? Any fool can see that this is information that's important to people looking for games, period.

Re: The Cold Hard Facts
 

I'm not sure I buy the logic of your argument based on the tiny sampling of MUD players we've got communicating so far in this thread. My educated guess would be that there are lots of players with issues about this kind of thing if they see a MUD advertised as free, start playing, and then get hit with gotchas like "It's free, but you can't play past Level 10 unless you pay." In which case, maybe they gripe on channels. Or maybe they vent on the game's forums before quitting. And maybe, just maybe, they'd complain somewhere like TMS or TMC.

However, my bet is that most would just move on and find something different (or, worse, give up on MUDs entirely because they're worried about getting ripped off).

So, I'd suggest we've got a silent majority around out there somewhere in the community that hasn't been heard. For that reason, I support the text box/check approach to categorizing. More information isn't bad.

Re: The Cold Hard Facts
 

That's a bit much. Come on CP, they, like anyone posting here, are just protecting the right to description and definition of what works for them.

Re: The Cold Hard Facts
 

This same argument was shot down when given by one of the Commercial Muds (I think Threshold), as using the posts here as a "tiny sampling" to make a major decision and change for the Admins.

Re: The Cold Hard Facts
 

How about we stick to responding to arguments rather than throwing around ad hominem? If you're not interested in believing that there are multiple legitimate sides to an argument, that's your business, but there's no reason to start attacking people because of it.

--matt

Re: The Cold Hard Facts
 

That's what's disgusting: protecting at all costs what's convenient for oneself and sacrificing accuracy of description and definition, not to mention one's own intellectual integrity, to do it.

Re: The Cold Hard Facts
 

Gosh; funny how you don't call ad hominem on people saying "this is all just anti-commercial admins making trouble because they hate commercial games!"

Not impressed.

Re: The Cold Hard Facts
 

If any of this were true, Runescape (who has free servers and member servers, with the former having severely restricted content) wouldn't have 7 million players and a million customers. There are a number of other MUDs with million+ users that use the same terminology.

Fact is, using free like this is absolutely standard in the online games world. Consumers at large pretty clearly have no problem with it judging by the overwhelming success of the model. It seems to only be confusing to a few people here, and I'm quite sure it's not actually confusing to them.

--matt

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

Don't make me mod you n00bs. Pheer teh delhammer!

Seriously though, keep it civil and on topic please. This discussion is heading downhill rapidly. I don't want to have to start deleting posts but if it comes to it I will, regardless of the flaming I get for doing it ;)

Re: The Cold Hard Facts
 

I didn't realize I was obligated to respond to every post I might have an issue with. My apologies. I'm pretty busy.

The point remains: Let's discuss the arguments, not the people, ok? I don't feel that's a radical suggestion and it's also in line with the guidelines for posting behavior on TMS.

--matt

Re: The Cold Hard Facts
 

I'm not questioning the validity of using the term "Free" in your game advertising and then having it clearly posted somewhere that you can get extras for spending money. I'm not in the all-commercial is evil camp, having dabbled in the commercial side myself. But I do question the validity of using what's valid for paid advertising/marketing purposes to justify quashing useful information in a freebie MUD index.

I support the idea of having the information available for players *and* letting MUD admins claim whatever they want in their advertising.

Your MUD puts hair on adolescent chests? Awesome!

Your MUD gets you fast cars and faster women? Sweet.

Your MUD makes Chuck Norris cry? OMG that's amazing!

Slap all that in the advertising, but provide the facts in the database so people can make their choices.

Re: The Cold Hard Facts
 

Ahh, if only it were that simple I doubt there'd be any argument.

Which facts, exactly? Nobody is proposing to include all of the facts about a MUD or, more specifically, about the manner in which a MUD takes money.

I brought up an example earlier in which one could categorize every country into those that:
1. Allow their citizens to vote.
2. Don't allow their citizens to vote.

Are these "the facts"? Is the relevant reality from the perspective of the user-citizen contained within those choices? Certainly not, regardless of the fact that all countries can be categorized in one of those two categories.

(Country A might only define white males as a citizen but allow them to vote. Country B might grant all adults residing in the country the right to vote but only provide a single candidate to vote for, etc. )

--matt

Re: The Cold Hard Facts
 

omg weak.

Yeah. It's hard not to talk about people's behavior when it personally, greatly distresses me. You might remember that I'm also not any kind of anti-commercial-MUD activist; rather, I started from a point of having some respect and admiration for people who were successful at creating commercial MUDs, and hoped to one day join their ranks. No bitterness like that of the disillusioned.

Oh, well. Arguments, you say? Very well. You're correct that we can't tell if a MUD whose policy is no-money-accepted might have players doing real-money trading on it. I find that this is acceptable and does not interfere with the utility of the multiple-choice models being described. Accurately describing official policy suffices.

Re: The Cold Hard Facts
 

Dabbled? Don't you work for a company making commercial MUDs (or MMOs or whatever you want to call them)?

If TMS is "free" (I assume that's what you meant by freebie) even though enhanced privileges are available to those who pay for them (the ability to run ads), then surely a MUD is as well?

--matt

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

The Defence of New Posters would like to submit the following evidence for consideration:

Of the 36 participants in this thread (including me), only two have the same IP address and they aren't any of the ones you mentioned.

The defence rests :p

Re: The Cold Hard Facts
 

Lots of people's behavior here distresses me greatly. So what? We're here for a discussion, not to vent out our personal frustrations.



So then it's acceptable for a MUD to accept money as long as it's stated official policy is that it doesn't?

If it's mere policy we're interested in then there's really no point in having this discussion, since anyone can say anything they wish is their official policy if they don't mind being deceitful about it. And, in this hypothetical there's no way to call them on it since official policy, not reality, is what apparently matters.

My prediction: There'd be a lot of outrage about it. Why? Because what's useful to people is reality, not wishful thinking.

--matt

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

Just a point: That doesn't prove or disprove anything. I know if I choose to post under a different identity, all you'll see is a user from an IP that's totally unrelated to my own, perhaps from New York (I live in the Bay Area), or Singapore, or Brisbane, etc.

--matt

Re: The Cold Hard Facts
 

Yep. I don't *run* the company or the MMO, however. I was referring to my own MUSHes. I don't really count my MMO day job, though, because graphical MMOs (aside from gold sellers) don't seem to be populating TMS or TMC with game listings. So, unless specified otherwise, my references in TMS are to my experiences with text-based games.

If TMS were to go to a site for listing MUD sites, I'd expect Lasher to indicate that it's free to list, but that you get perks for advertising with TMS. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Re: The Cold Hard Facts
 

Nod, fair enough, but I brought up Runescape specifically because it is listed on TMS (and has more users than every other MUD listed here put together I think).

And, speaking as a long-time subscriber of Runescape, I can't say I ever felt deceived or ripped off by it.
--matt