Hail!

I first posted about this potential new group in the general announcements forum. But
feedback from a few people has convinced me that if I really want to reach you I have
to go direct.

The Basic information :

The structure document:


Here is the post that initially announced the idea:


If formed this group will bring together everyone who works on any sort of
online multiplayer game. A huge environment of creators who can share
ideas and make them available to everyone. I announced it on the BioWare
NeverWinter Nights board because I believe that is the center of the next
explosion in games, specifically online multiplayer games.

But no matter how big NWN and all the games that flow from it are, it is still
only one part of what the GDG can be about.

So take a look at the Charter, and tell me what you think. This is the most
advanced Mud concept I have ever come up with, and the people here, all
of you, are the sort I see as the reason the GDG could become something
wonderful.

Christopher Darque
(-)
'Alexander Tau'

We have set up a site to use to organize the GDG. It has both a public
and private side so feel free to visit and take a look. It is 1 day old as I
am posting this so it will be a bit before it is really complete.

A.T
(-)

geocites sucks, i would never go on a geocitie site....

Well then you will be avoiding one of the largest collections of personal
Web Pages on the planet, but to each his own.

Idle question - Do you have anyone that is actually fairly well-known in this 'GDG'?

-D

I suppose it depends on what you mean, does someone who have been
running a successful Mud for 5+ years count? Many of the current members
would qualify if that is the case. I guess it is obvious you do not know me,
and I have been making games for 20 years.

But the short answer is not really. I am making contact with the people
who run the major sites, but as you can imagine most get requests all
the time to join this or that group. This is the very beginning of this group,
so we are really focused on getting talented, experienced people together.

I must say I am gratified at the number of Moderators, Admin, and Site
Owners who have respondly positivly to the emails, and at how many have
dropped in to take a look. I really do understand how busy most are.

A.T
(-)

Well, I think the only "explosion" and "flow" that NWN will generate are a bunch of crappy mods from UBER L33T twinks who think a +25 Vorpal Sword of Shooting Fireballs out of my Ass is cool.

There is a reason why professional game designers get paid for what they do.

I am sure there will be a handful of NWN mods that are truly excellent- perhaps better than the single player game that comes with NWN itself. But to think it will be the source of some massive "explosion" of multiplayer gaming is extremely naive. It also points to a lack of understanding of online gaming, and gaming in general.

Now, since I do intend to buy and play NWN, I will be pleasantly surprised if I am wrong here. But every other game released in hopes that the community would build for it has failed (for example, Vampire: The Masquerade). What you end up with are projects in varying degrees of incompetion and varying degrees of poor quality.

Ditto Aristotle's post.

As for the rest - 20+ years? You'll have to pardon my skepticism then. But, I'm going to state it anyway, 'I believe you are as full of it as Xanferious'.

-D

What exactly is your motivation for the flaming? A re-read of the entire thread hasn't pointed me to any particular reason, and all I see him trying to do is get a group together to talk about MUDs. Just curious.

Lot

I realize you have no way to know this, but my experience and years of
study of the game industry, along with the games I have helped to publish,
run, sell, and populate with pictures, says NWN is unique.

You could very well be right, but since few games have been produced
with the level of committment to the community, and open intentions
of design in all the years computer games have even existed, I think it
is has a good chance of being something great.

I am not a kid, I am not given to foolish predictions, and I have studied
the subject, I wonder if you really have. It is not a matter of some good
mods, it is 24/7 Persistant Worlds, it is real AD&D play as one, one, part
of it's design. Teams are going to be required, just like on a Mud.

Regardless, time will tell, and this thread is about the GDG, and that is
not tied to only one game. If it was I would not be here taking these
little shots in stride.


A.T
(-)

Masterful dodge of my point, but I reiterate. 20+ years? *cough*Xanferious*cough*.

Now, is anyone such as Hans Henrik Starfeldt in this so-called 'GDG'? How about our more modern creators, such as KaVir? Or, hell, Koryon or Unifex even?

Well?

-shrug-

-D

I accept the compliment, although I am a little confused by it,
quoting myself here:

'But the short answer is not really'

The simple truth is the Game Directors Guild is for the people who create
and run online multiplayer games. The Immortals, Wizards, Imps, and a
lot of other names.

While we will be pleased to have anyone who has made a contribution
we are focused on getting the people who are out there making the games
run. So we will never judge ourselves on how many 'celebs' we have but
rather how many people find the GDG to be a benefit.

For you perhaps this will make us unimportant, but I have a group of
people forming, and each one is as important to the GDG as any other.


A.T
(-)

After "20+ years of making games" you have to resort to geo****ties for free web hosting? You can't afford $30 for a domain name and $5-20 a month for web hosting?

Honestly, I am not trying to attack or flame you, but surely you can see why people doubt the veracity of your claims.

As for Neverwinter Nights being unique: how? Vampire: The Masquerade, Dungeon Siege, and Morrowind all have extremely advanced ediors for building worlds. The editors for the last two contain the exact tools the developers used to make their worlds. There have been plenty of other games as well that released robust editing tools and yet resulted in nothing (or very little) of any quality.

How about the old gold box program Unlimited Adventurers. It was a bomb, and the stuff people made for it was mostly junk.

Relying on fan created content to create an enduring game is never going to result in quality product. There is a reason professional game designers are professionals who get paid, and fans are the people who slap down their money and buy the games.

> It is not a matter of some good mods, it is 24/7 Persistant Worlds

Do you really think mere fans are going to host 24/7 persistent worlds on their computers? Do you think that will provide any degree of reliability? If its so easy, why aren't you running a web server over your connection so you don't have to use geocities? How long is Bioware going to invest money to support the game once they are no longer selling copies?

Seriously.... looking at NWN as some kind of holy grail of online gaming is extremely naive. You said you've done research, but if you had, you would see the history. Fan made content is mostly crap. The majority of people have absolutely no talent or ability for MAKING a game.

Furthermore, the D&D rules might be good for pen and paper gaming, but on a computer, they're crap. You have this massive computer capable of millions of calculations per second, and you tell it to make one d20 roll per round?

I *hope* NWN will be fun. I *hope* that the fan base of millions will result in at least a handful of fun levels/mods/etc. I am sure the game will do well financially on hype alone (look at Dungeon Siege... the game is crap, but it has succeeded simply because so many people bought it at release).

But saying it is going to revolutionize online gaming is just silly. If NWN is going to create armies of superb game designers and hundreds of great "games", why hasn't Microsoft Word created armies of super novelists and hundreds of great free books?

I agree - however I'd like to particularly emphasis your words "mostly" and "majority". There are exceptions (take a look at some of the Half-Life mods, for example, which proved more popular than the original game).

I don't believe NWN is going to create any sort of "sudden revolution", any more than the release of DikuMUD did. But give it a few years, and it could end up going the same way - a whole horde of rubbish, with a few gems at the top. Like Diku, it may also provide the inspiration for people to go the whole way and write the own game completely from scratch.

To be honest I find the d20 limiting even for a pen&paper game. Will NWN allow that part of the system to be rewritten?

Dulan, I could understand your doubts if Alexander Tau had claimed to have been creating muds for 20 years - but he didn't. There is a big difference between creating "games", and creating "muds" - I've been doing the former for around 15 years, but the latter for only 7.

In regard to the "success" of NWN, I have my doubts, but I do think this is another step (for graphical muds) in the same direction that text-based muds have gone. I have spoken with Alexander about the GDG via email and have been following the discussions on his public forum, but I'm seriously considering taking a more active role. In particular, one of the things he said to me in his email was "Some of the motovation behind this is to help to legitimize the MU* community in the eyes of the world. By making them such a part of the new GDG, and showing how the work that was done in all those 'old text' games has meaning today is part of that."

His point is a very valid one. I'm sure many of you here are familiar with the way the graphical muds (or "MMORPGs" as they like to call themselves) look down on us. The majority of players of games like EverQuest - which is little more than a DikuMUD with a graphical front end - look down on us as being insignificant and outdated (if they even notice us at all) despite being a decade behind us in terms of feature development. We might laugh when they try to tackle problems that we've solved years earlier, but at the end of the day we're losing out, because their attitude seems to be reflected by the gaming industry as a whole. NWN is being praised for doing what AberMUD did 15 years ago - allowing the public to run their own online roleplaying games - and we don't even get mentioned.

I think it's about time that we started giving these newcomers a lesson in history, and Alexander's forums are certainly a good place to start. I want these people to realise that text-based muds are not antiques, but in many cases are actually the forerunners in terms of features and gameplay, and that there is still much that this newer generation of muds can learn from us.

I think a lot of the skepticism is coming from:

1) Someone claiming they have been making games for 20 years, and yet can do no better than to host a web page on geocities (the land of copyright infringement).

2) Someone claiming that NWN is a revolutionary advancement in gaming, when it is truly nothing new at all, and is severely limited by the use of D&D/d20 rules on a computer.

KaVir, you make (as usual) excellent points about the nature of graphical game feature sets vs. text game feature sets, and about the credibility of text gaming. I know that when I explain what I do, people boggle at the fact that there are no graphics. This is something we have been struggling with for many, many years, and I would definitely support measures to end the innaccurate "low tech" stigma that text games seem to have.

I just have some concerns about the nature of this organization's founding principles, and the source from which it was born (NWN forums).

Regardless of any skepticism you might have concerning Alexander himself, the fact still remains that he has provided a forum on which graphical and text-based mudders are meeting. In that respect it doesn't really matter who is running the site - as far as I'm concerned, it's simply a medium through which I can reach some of these people and make it clear just how advanced the forerunners of the text-based community are.

Alexander might be an unknown to us at the moment, but his posts on these forums have been polite, thought-provoking, and in-keeping with the guidelines (as well as the general rules of netiquette). How well known was Icculus before he opened The Mud Connector? How well known was Synozeer before he opened Top Mud Sites? How well known was Kyndig before he opened Kyndig.com?

Of course I've seen many similar projects start up and then collapse within a few months. But even if that happens, I'll still have had the opportunity to open a few minds within the graphical community, so (in my opinion) it will still have been worth it.

My comments:

What I posted was not flames. Blunt, yes, but they were not flames. (Trust me on that).

Now, what I am looking for is something that makes Alexander credible. He hosts on Geocities. Just that, in itself, makes me want to run for life (and reproductive organs) for a GDG club being hosted there.

See, Alexander comes off as a 'fanboy' to me. As Threshold pointed out many times, his research seems extremely....limited, and not particularly well-done. NWN is NOT revolutionary. Many games, pointed out by other posters, have entered the ground it has. Honestly, I think he is as full of it as Xanferious. Is that flaming? Not really. I think he is full of it - but, I'm not insulting him in that statement. That is a statement based on my opinion of him, and what opinions he has given out.

Honestly, while he may have been working on -games- for 20 years (And if he uses that definition, I've been working on games for 15+ years), I do not see how that applies towards _online_ games. If anyone doubts - an online game is a whole different breed than an offline game. I can tell you that from personal experience. Claiming to have experience in game design of offline games when you speak of online games is like claiming experience in 8 years of (implied) C++, when you have been writing in C for 8, and C++ for a couple months. (I'll maintain that C++ is an entirely different beast than C.) While they do have similarities, by no means are they the same -genre- really.

Regardless of his experience, he is perfectly entitled to his opinion on neverwinter. Neverwinter *does* have some potentially quite unique and interesting features. As far as I know, it is the first graphical, online RPG where an end user will be able to assume the roll of a gamemaster. The engine appears to be flexible and we know it to be moddable. There's certainly some legitimate reasons to believe that NWN will have a significant impact on the gaming community.

Regardless of whether or not NWN is revolutionary or not, all Andrew said was that GDG started with NWN and that he believes it has great potential. The latter point seems plausible and the former point is reasonable given the goal of the organization.

Agreed: Opinions are things each side can have. But, dude, if you don't want to trust it, simple: Don't Go. Since you claim not to want to look at Geocities sites because you're too scared to believe that they're may be a legitimate reason for starting *someplace*, even crappy ol' Geocities, then almost any idea on that entire base will be lost to you.

I hate to think I missed an Idea, due to fear.

The purpose for the Game Directors Guild has been well
described by some of our members already, so I will not go
into those points.

But to the things about me personally.

Did it ever occur to some of you that anyone can get a web page on
places like Geocities? For me it has been a personal site for many
years. I was in fact the first Community Leader for the Reseach
Triangle where it is located.

So if that is the basis of your deductions about the truth of my
background it is rather lacking. The only things on my personal
Site are a couple of documents. The first actual GDG site is hosted
on a private Domain loaned to us by one of our members.

I started to program in 1973 on an army base in West Germany.
Recorded my first program on paper tape via a TTY teletype terminal
attached to a mainframe with 16K of memory for 5 terminals.

The first time I was ever paid for a programming job I was 16 and it
was for the Civil Defense office of a small town. When the BBSs came
along I got involved, created game addons, moderated Echos, and
eventually got involved with a game called Ultimate Universe. Trade
Wars was king, UU was complex.

I made it a hit when I took over as manager of the small shareware project
created by Garth Bigalow, brilliant guy. In a few years he had sold some 500
registrations, in 6 months we sold thousands.

Along the way I won an Art Contest for another game called Land of
evistation and participated in it's development for a few years.

During the time of BBSs, where calling Long Distance was a daily event.
I created a group called (-) Zone Central. Using BBSs in 4 states, we took
simple games and added an RP story on top that involved everyone.
Primative, but fun. Many BBSs were single line affairs, so time shareing
was an art.

Then the move to the InterNet, Muds, and all things online in this new way.
Along the way I fronted a couple of rock bands, and had a few other adventures.

There are other things, money I have made, projects I have released, articles
published in game newsletters, Sites and zines.

But enough of that.

A revolution can sometimes be a single step.

I think NWN is taking a couple, regardless of personal views, AD&D is the
most known RPG, the mother of them all, and that is going to get a lot of
attention. Will NWN be stable enough to be 24/7, guess we will see, but it
is a design goal, so I have faith that any problems will work out.

If it works well enough, more will follow. It is not the holy grail, but it is
something special.


A.T
(-)

god your such a child, i pitty you.....

Xanferious, in order to pity the one you label as 'child', you should be older than a child yourself.

While you may lay claim to a double-standard, the hypocrisy of one is quickly rendered visible.

-D

Unfortunately many people in the GW community base their opinion of me on rumours (at least some of which are caused by people pretending to be me), and judge my coding skills by GodWars - which I wrote 7 years ago, was my first C program, and was hacked up horribly by several people before being leaked out. There are plenty of things to dislike about me, but it's very closed minded to make assumptions about a person based on a lack of knowledge.

Perhaps that's why I'm more willing to give people the benefit of the doubt.

The original opinion was founded less on knowledge than hearsay. However, my message was more about learning to see past rumors/facades. Lets see how Tau can get this thing going, and maybe we'll get some people excited enough to cause the "new big idea" that'll find us back in the realm of mass hardcore gamers.

-Visko

There is enough real flaming on the internet that one should not label the sharing of one's opinions as FLAMING simply because they are contrary to someone else.

It is my belief, that anyone who feels Neverwinter Nights is "revolutionary" is not very well educated in the history of gaming- and especially not in the history of online gaming.

Furthermore, I think it is perfectly legitimate to question the talent, means, and experience of anyone who cannot even secure quality web space, and thus has to use pop-up/pop-under driven geo****ties to host a page.

When sorting out the wheat from the chaff online, one of the main things you look for is credibility. A complete lack of basic historical knowledge about gaming and the use of geocities creates a significant LACK of credibility.

"It is my belief, that anyone who feels Neverwinter Nights is "revolutionary" is not very well
educated in the history of gaming- and especially not in the history of online gaming."

You are entitled to it, however to assume because you disagree with me that
I am not well versed in the history and depth of games is simply incorrect. Even
people with the exact same background can have a difference of opinion.

"Furthermore, I think it is perfectly legitimate to question the talent, means,
and experience of  anyone who cannot even secure quality web space, and
thus has to use pop-up/pop-under driven geo****ties to host a page. "

By making that statement you prove a couple of things, first that you do not
really read very carefully before you launch into this sort of thing, and second
by your continued use of the rude GeoCities spelling that you are rather crude.

One last time, please try to read it.

The GeoCities Site is my PERSONAL page, a couple of the original docs are
available there. The GDG Site is hosted on a PRIVATE LEASED DOMAIN that
was DONATED to the GDG. Got it now?

"A complete lack of basic historical knowledge about gaming and the use of
geocities creates a significant LACK of credibility. "

That is just the most amazing conclusion, and one that is backed up
by nothing whatsoever, have you ever heard of the scientific method?


Are we done with this now?


A.T
(-)

Since I am obviously a bit annoyed at the moment, I am going
to say something I intended not to.

Does it strike anyone as Ironic that I am being so harshly questioned
in a Forum that is my very own creation?

I pitched the idea of an 'Advanced Mud Concepts' forum to Syn, and
was the orginial Moderator. If I am lying then it will come out rather
quickly will it not?

I thought about 4 years ago that enough development had continued
on MU*s despite dire warnings of death that something like this Forum
was a worthy idea. Still around, score one for me.

Threashold,

You started out with a fairly reasonable tone, but you just assumed I
wa a fool and did not ask me anything, this is disturbing. Do you really
know NWN? Have you read the faq, tech info, to really get the full
picture? If you have and you think it is just another kinda nice game
then I accept that opinion. I think differently of course.


A.T
(-)

Aha. Now this whole forum was "your idea."

Because lord knows, the idea of an advanced mud concepts discussion area was never conceived of before.

A certain mailing list called mud dev springs to mind.

The way you try to take credit for things does nothing but further undermine your motives and your credibility.

I think we've strayed from the point a bit...

Remember: we're talking about GDG. Whatever Tau's credentials/lack thereof, let's stick to the point of the thread.

-Visko

Thank you Visko,

The Game Directors Guild is doing quite well. People have been picking
KaVir's brain non-stop, and we have recirenly added a couple members
who have significant professional game backgrounds.

I have to apologize for allowing myself to be drawn into these stupid
debates, in any group of people, even the exceptional one here, there
are always a couple of fools who just have to jump on others.


A.T
(-)

Just a note:

Alexander Tau was a member of TopMudSites.com when it first went up, and he was a very active and contributing member of the forum. He also did indeed suggest the creation of this Advanced Mud Concepts forum because he felt there needed to be a place dedicated to discussing these "higher" concepts.

-Synozeer

I read this thread backwards, since the flaming on the last page was so much fun, I slowly worked my way to the actual POINT.

Threshold, call it what you want, but focussing on the hosting of AT's website is kind of sad. Why don't you go insult his car, and tell him that makes him worthless to the MUD community.

I usually don't really get involved in these types of posts, simply because I dont have the time anymore, and dont want to deal with ego vs. ego. However in this case, it directly affects me, since not only has AT been very helpful to me, but I myself am a game director.

You know how much experience I have creating a game? Little to none. Does that completely destroy my credibility when I have an opinion on something? I'm working my hardest to collect staff, resources, ideas, and support. It doesn't take 10+ years experience to do that. Will I make mistakes? Sure. But I AM entitled to my opinion, and it shouldn't be flushed down the toilet. The same applies to AT who has MUCH more experience than the average MUDder.

IF you have an opinion on his website hosting, on his experience, or on his opinions, it's usually NOT helping the Advanced MUD Concept board. Thats where being an adult, or at least being a mature human being comes into play. Calling it "geo****ties" reflects the fact that you can't keep your opinion in a moderate tone, and show a certain amount of a decency or respect to the person posting.

Try and treat the person who starts posts like this, or any posts in the forum, as if they are standing on a stage in front of a large crowd of people, which isn't that far from truth in a way. You wouldn't yell "You idiot! Look at that yellow tie! Im not listening to anything you say." The same applies here. Ask questions that will be productive, make suggestions, even point out things that might be problematic or you disagree with. But going to attack a person that makes the post outright, is not only immaturely idiotic, but doesn't serve to improve anything.

This might have been just a bit off topic, and for that I apologize. Unfortunately, things like this have to be addressed if this is going to be a productive forum, and not just a flaming attack free-for-all.