I have been looking for a new mud for a few months now and can't seem to find one that quite suits my tastes. I don't really have specific requirements such as classless/leveless systems but would like something with Pk. I am looking for an RPI MUD (no MUSHes) and would like your suggestions on what to go check out.

Please do not recommend...
1) SOI
2) Arm
3) or any game that isn't free to play

I look forward to seeing what all is out there that I haven't discovered.

You didn't forbiddened to mention so it should be mentioned. There is very good atmosphere, and real Roleplayers do like that place.

I'll second Harshlands. Though I've never played there religiously, I did enjoy the time I spent there. Check it out...

Shattered Kingdoms is also a pretty solid game.

Harshlands is the only other RPI that I know of besides the two you mentioned. Maybe you mean RP enforced mud? There are plenty of them. (RPI is a more strict term)

Harshlands is similar to SoI codewise (but with less advanced code in my opinion) but has a completely different setting (including a LOT more religious influences) and a lot less players.

If you want a PK mud, Carrion Fields isn't an RPI but it is RP enforced and focuses very heavily on PK.

Everybodies definition of RPI seems to be slightly different these days. And even within that particular area there are a multitude of muds with differing playing styles. Someone who wants RPI might consider that levels is not a roleplay device therefore any game that includes a level system is not for them. So since you were fairly loose in defining your boundries I shall give the game I haunt a shameless plug.

Evarayn has been running less than a year, it is based on entirely original code. Not adapted from another code base or mutated, but built from the ground up. Some people find it hard to adjust to playing there because they prefer the familiar syntax and routines of what they are used to, but many stick it out and become perfectly at home (just think what it was like with your first mud and how foreign it all was). We have a unique skills system and plyers gain points to learn more skills through time in the world - which is a plus for roleplay as you are not forced to spend time hunting things to gain useful skills, instead you can be acting out a scene with a group in  village somewhere.

We are a small world, if you are looking for a large population then evarayn is not for you, but we are building playerbase steadily. Gods are active and IC, we have cities and factions, societies and continents. Sailing ships for travel and beasts you can breed yourself and ride. All needs are provided by other players, cooking, crafting, smithing and repairs. We do have player to player combat, pk is not forbidden but there is expected to be ic reasoning behind it. We're not permadeath, though we do have some interesting penalties from death which effectively weaken you until you attend a renewal ceremony (performed by players who have chosen the sage path)

I won't rave here any more, I could do so for hours! check through our website evarayn.com and read up the histories and information posted. If you think we're what you are looking for come on by and try it. It won't cost you a cent, even if you don't think it is what you are looking for come by and try it, you never know until you do

My impression is that "RPI" is jargon- it's a term invented by people with a certain style of game to describe their own style of game.  It's no more instructive than going to the grocery store and seeing "New and Improved" or "Deluxe".

There are a lot of games where the method and goal involves good roleplaying, and where roleplaying is required of all players.

We fit the bill of what you ask for in your original post- we're 100% free to play (no "pay-for-perks" or similar systems which amount to "you can play for free as a second-class citizen"), we require roleplay from all players, we have PK, etc.  We're a well-established MUD- up since 1994, with a large and diverse playerbase.

is an ad from the summer describing our basic philosophy and perks.   is a more focused ad, which 'zooms in' on our thief class (one of 16).  Check both out (macrocosm and microcosm), and see if anything there interests you.

The point of RPI is to a term for a certain style of game. It is a game that focuses on roleplaying above all else, including PK, level-gaining and getting your character uber 1337.

In an RPI, people are shown by descriptions not names that are somehow mysteriously known. There are no levels or experience points. People don't mysteriously pop back when they die. When you die you make a new character. Character's have to go through an application process before being created. There are no global channels(except maybe a newbie channel, I think). RPIs are sort of like the hardcore roleplaying games. Somepeople like them some people don't.

Nowhere have I said that RPIs are "better" than other RP enforced muds. They are a more specific type of mud and some people may like them while others may not. Some people might like the immersion into the world created by an RPI. Some people might not like not being able to go around killing mobs, players, or gaining levels. Some people might not like righting character applications. And some people might just not like the extensive amount of RP that is involved.

It is a term that is used to help people identify the type of Mud it is not saying that it is better or "new and improved". In my previous post I even recommended Carrion fields. It is not an RPI, but that doesn't mean it isn't good or that it isn't RP required. But somebody who likes playing RPIs, might not like Carrion fields and will probably leave annoyed when their character keeps getting PKed or when people they kill come back to life. Other people might like the adrenaline rush provided by PK and love Carrion fields.

RPI muds are a type of mud. They are in no way "better" or "worse" than other RP muds except in people's opinions. If an RP enforced mud were, RPIs would be apples. Some people might like apples better than oranges but this doesn't mean one is "better". Even though neither is "better" a distinction still needs to be made so somebody doesn't bite into an apple thinking it is an orange or bite into an orange thinking it is an apple.

edit: Evarayn is not an RPI, just wanted to clear that up. (it doesn't have permadeath, has experience points I think, and has an OOC channel, etc.) This doesn't mean is a bad mud, as I said before.

Also, Evaryn is "pay for perks", so they aren't 100% free.

This is from Wiki-Pedia

MUD is a general term (at least to me). Its a text base game that has a heavy code presence, lots of coded items, rooms, etc. MUSH is another general term. Its usually light on code, rooms, and items, and alot of time people don't even use coded combat but rather emotes.

Then there are subclasses like RPI mud, H&S mud, Rp-encouraged, sex mud, etc. Each has various definitions and its really up to the person viewing to decide.

But for the most part, RPI muds have a very definitive look and feel to them. Putting such an emphasis on roleplaying as to require character applications to control the type of characters (usually to preserve the games environment, keep characters semi-permanent in their appearance, and prevent description silliness). There is usually few 'numbers' (like no damage numbers, no skill numbers, no levels, etc.).

Anyways, there is a big difference in my opinion between RP-encouraged/enforced/required muds and RPI muds like Harshlands, Armageddon, Fourlands, Southlands, SoI, etc. And I feel that wiki-pedia has done a good job expressing the common meaning of the different terms, at least from what I've heard from other players.

MUSH isn't just a term - it's the name of a derivative. MUSH is derived from TinyMUD, just like Merc is derived from Diku, and they all belong to the MUD genre.

To quote Dr Richard Bartle (author of the original MUD) concerning the usage of the term 'MUD':

According to Tychepedia, any idiot can edit a Wikipedia entry and they often do. Time to fix it. ;-)


p.s. There, is that better?

I was going to add RPI players tend to be extraordinarily anal-centric, unimaginative and highly annoying hobbitses, but I figured they didn't want opinions no matter how highly considered.

I'd suggest they be younger than your typical role-player and older than your typical hack-n-slahser, but then that's such a relative term and a broad generalization. Tweeners on the role-playing spectrum.

Some consider that Intensive part immature. It's also a false conceit when better role-play occurs elsewhere. Only in an RPI will one be forced to role-play for the enjoyment of the objects, mobiles and hidden staff. Such is not the way of other role-players who role-play for the entertainment of their fellow players and themselves. RPI is role-play for the hopelessly left-brained and the tragically Diku-centric mud universe, IMNSHO.

There's more than enough. There's a reason it's the smallest segment of even the role-playing population.

There really is an elitism among "RPI" players, at least as expressed on TMS' forums.

I don't disagree with you at all in asfar as this genre appeals to some players and not others.  It's not the kind of game I personally prefer to play, but I can respect what's been created on the better works of the genre for the quality games they are.

Everyone thinks the game they choose to play is the best.  It's just the way of things.  The difference, I think, is that RPI players tend to project this opinion that the fact that they choose to play an RPI makes them more mature or adult than players who choose a differing style of game.  Whereas, for example, a H&S mudder will tend to think he has the better or more fun game, but he won't call you a child, immature, or socially deficient for preferring something else.

Well - you do realize that this is precisely my point, yes?

"I dislike members of group X because they all stereotype members of group Y."

If you're going to make blanket statements like that accusing a group of elitism you may as well be honest enough to admit that in the process you're doing pretty much the same thing.

I'm sure there are players in group X who do stereotype members of group Y - but there're also plenty of them who don't.

This is why stereotypes really have no place in reasoned discussion. If you're going to get up on a soapbox and disparage someone else for using them, do be careful that you aren't using them yourself.

I've heard that shoepolish doesn't have a very pleasant taste.

My original point was this:

There are a lot of games where the method and goal involves good roleplaying, and where roleplaying is required of all players.

RPI is one style of this. It isn't the only way to roleplay, and depending on your personal tastes it may not be the best way to roleplay.

For example, I think the games in the genre tend to over-focus on tedious tasks like preparing food, repairing worn armor, etc, and that this focus takes away from roleplay by forcing the player to spend a lot of time on these sorts of tasks. To go back to my novel-writing analogy, a story involving travel doesn't pause to describe the main characters preparing their food every time that realism dictates they would have eaten. It occurs "off camera", but most RPI engines don't allow this- you're forced to go through the motions each time, learn skills related to these tasks, gather ingredients, or suffer starvation.

Our approach is to push that kind of activity away from the foreground, precisely so the player can focus on more interesting things- adventure, storytelling, etc. You need to purchase food and eat, but we don't want to make a big production about it, so it's relatively easy.

Now, we keep food/hunger in the game because we feel like you can do cool things with it:
- certain abilities can inflict hunger
- thieves can steal, poison, and re-plant food onto unwary victims
- woodsy types can often locate food in preferred terrain
- certain foods come with extra benefits
- an especially lightweight and nourishing stash of food can serve as a minor 'treasure' in an area
- etc.

But the important thing is that these cool things aren't burdened by a lot of the things that we feel would slow the game down. Some people like the detail of a system that goes through all the motions, and plays more like a simulation. Other people like our way of abstracting it because they see it as distracting to other elements of the roleplay process- and also because the time we would be spending implementing food preparation is spent implementing quests, battles, spells, etc.

Saying that one style is "roleplay intensive" and the other, by default, isn't... strikes me as labeling, much like my aforementioned example of "deluxe". It's two styles of achieving the same goal.

My opinon of it is that the "intensive" part of it is from going into the detail of playing out those mundane things that you say "slows the game down" and detracts from what you say is the most important part of it.

The "intensive" part, in my opinion is having to incorporate those "mundane" things into your rp and have to incorporate the fear of permanent death into it as well. Having to constantly make those emotions, physical needs and such a real part of your character where in others that lack this...you do not.

That is my opinion of it.

Well yes.  IMNSHO or IMESVO if you want.  The RPIers, at least those vocal enough to prolificly post on the subject, have adopted the same conceit that the old Tiny MU* crowd did with Hack-n-Slash.  Yeah better role-play exists outside of RPI muds.  The "intensity" part of the acronym is lame, but we've argued over that before.  You're not any more "intense" than those playing at places like TrekMush or ElendorMush.  What you really mean is "complete immersion" or at least dwarves passably faking it while gaming the game.  Not that there's anything wrong with logging into a RPI mud and having one of your "intense" RPIers send you whispers or telpathic tells on how stupid you are for picking the staff over the sword, because well the sword is much better than the staff (actually happened to me on an RPI mud).  Not that there's anything wrong with trying to enjoy the game with a friend and being thrown into different hometowns and not being able to play together, let alone even communicate with each other ooc-ly (that too happens).  

Ah but size is inimical to good role-play.  Someone said that the quality of role-play is inversely proportional to the number of players.  I think they were right.  Nevertheless Shangrila averages 300 players a night and has hit close to 600 for special events.  Of course size may matter there. *kof*  And I'd imagine being enslaved and whipped by hot chicks in leather might well be more intense than hanging with hairy footed hobbitses.  But there are dozens of other role-playing non-RPI muds between 25-50 players with somewhat more traditional vein of scifi/fantasy.    

None of the ones I named are even listed here, despite being larger.  One might consider the possibility that a significant group of mudders don't read TMS, TMC, or Mudmagic.  Why should they?  They have their own communities.  I will say the TMS role-playing board is better than the other two.  I see at least some non-RPIers, but just as intense if not moreso, mud role-players have posted there.

Hey it's not me that thinks they are better because of this intensity thang.  It doesn't appeal to me obviously.  My experience is the "I" in RPI on some of these games stands for "Invasive rectal monitoring".  You don't have those sorts 'trust' issues on role-playing muds that don't implement games that can be gamed by dwarves.

Not that there's anything horribly wrong with RPI mind you.  :-P

Just a point about Shangri'la. It has a lot of players online primarily because they let people idle online. Last time I checked (few months ago), the -average- player on Shangri'la had been idle longer (26 minutes) than the most idle player on the mud I was comparing it to.

--matt

This post has kind of gotten off topic but thats ok, I'm glad it spurred some discussion. I tried out all the muds recommended and still didn't find anything that really suits me. *shrug* It happens.

A lot of points have been raised concerning RPIs and other types of muds. I'll pitch in my two cents. When I say RPI I don't mean games that are classless/leveless, only use descriptions instead of names, etc., etc. I mean a game where all things in the game have to be roleplayed. Roleplay "encouraged" leaves a lot of room for players to just be twinks. Some roleplay "enforced" games are the same way. I don't think a RPI needs to be void of classes, levels, or the occasional mob hacking. It does need to have an enforced IC/OOC policy. In my opinion if a game allows or encourages players to simply gather eq, become uber buff, and massacre anyone they want just cause they're "1337" then its not an RPI.

Icky,

Since we had a mention of your definite for RPI MUDs, I'd also be curious what makes a MUSH something you're not interested in that differs from what you seek in an RPI MUD. What things are you looking to avoid by avoiding MUSHes?

I'm going to use the term RPI the way it actually is, not the way you use it Icky. It is designed to classify a certain type of muds(that many people either love or hate, in order to attract/warn away players respectively) and using it differently is a real pet peeve of mine. It's a name that allready has a meaning, it isn't really an opinion that varies from person to person although many people try to use it that way. Anyway, my response:

Hmm, you don't want strict RPI, but you don't want a game that allows or encourages players to gather eq, become buff, and massacre anybody? So basicly an RP mud that is not to restrictive on RP, but not too lenient either. Well, it's hard to decide what is to restrictive and what is to lenient for you for the simple reason that I am not you, but have you tried New Worlds? From what I've read about it, they seem very very RP-oriented, but not to the extreme that an RPI is. I haven't actually played there for more than about 10 minutes, so I can't be sure. (I left cause I'm REAL picky about the RP in the muds I play). There's also Advent of the Mists(or something like that) that is full of lots of ex-Turning Point players. I don't know how far in it's creation it has gotten though. Hmm, that's about all I can think of.

He said he liked PK. Unless my understanding of MUSHes is completely wrong(which it very well may be), that would be enough right there, to keep him away from any MUSH.

I must say I've never played a MUSH but I have visited several websites and read through their requirements, rules, mechanics, etc.  Many of them allow for PK, but not in the way it is done on a mud.  My experience with MUSHes is that you have to gain permission from the other players to do anything that might affect them in any way before you do it.  That in addition to having entire battle done through only emotes with not code to back them up does not appeal to me.  Like many have expressed here, we each have our own tastes and MUSHes don't taste good to me.  

Also, by using this definition of RPI what I have asked for does not stray from this.  An RPI does not -HAVE- to be leveless or classless, it only needs to place RP at the center of things.  I like the hardcoding of a mud and I like the RP.  I don't mind things like classes, levels, or XP if it is all secondary to the RP.  

The thing is, I am only looking for suggestions to see what other players here like by giving a vague set of guidlines so I can test a wider variety of what might otherwise be recommended if I had provided a strict definition of what I was looking for.  I realize wherever I go will NOT be where I used to play.  However, I would like to find the closest thing available.

Using a definition from a site that anybody can edit, change, or create entries is hardly using a precise definition.

I really don't see why people keep trying to redefine RPI muds to be whatever RP mud they like playing. It only causes confusion. If you want to have a name for the type of RP mud that you like to play, pick a name that doesn't allready mean something specific. Using RPI mud the way you are is like me using MUSH to mean a game with humans as the only race. It's using a standard mud term to mean something different and only serves to cause confusion.

RPI muds are one type of RP mud. If you don't like them, fine. But stop trying to redefine their title just because you enjoy playing a different type of mud.

The definition from some random guy on a mud website would be more accurate?

Did you notice that dragonmaster never gave a definition?

I've figured out the definition will always match whatever the current features are of the muds that call themselves RPIs.

Well perhaps they were bound, gagged and getting some well-deserved discipline making it hard to get to the keyboard. But yes many moos, mucks and mushes are designed to leave the characters in the world if they desire. Sometimes they have scripts attached to receive messages or relay mail. I'm guessing though I don't know for sure, that would probably a punishable offense on an RPI mud.

Nope, actually, many muds call themselves RPIs but are not.

An RPI mud is levelless, xpless, has permadeath, no global channels(except a newb channel I think), is incredibly RP focused(yah this ones up to opinion mostly, that's the main reason for the other requirements that are more of a yes/no thing), and there are probly other requirements but these are the ones I can remember off the top of my head.

It's interesting that Armegeddon really has levels and experience points, they are actually abstracted into the skill system. Experience is gained through repeated use of skills and one advances to higher skill levels via some form of hidden tally, aka experience points. One abstraction is simply replaced with another. Sounds to me like just hiding the levels and experience points is sufficient to meet that part of RPI definition. And they've got mana and hit points too.

OTOH, ElendorMush is truely levelless and experience pointless. Neither hit points nor mana either. There are no other abstractions replacing those. The only difference is it does have OOC global channels. It certainly satisfies the intense role-playing criteria though. That's obvious through the extensive logs.

So where's the rest of this RPI mud definition that you can't remember? One would have thought being that it's so very important to you that you'd have a very clear idea of just exactly what it is. Maybe even give us lots of links to essays and definitions. I've read here that RPI muds can't have a who list, and a score command. Hmm... some do though.

I wonder somewhat if the original poster has ever discovered a mud that he/she found acceptable. If SOI and Armageddon did not pique his/her interest, then it is likely that he/she was not looking for an RPI in the typical sence.

Tyche have you even seen the code for Armageddon? I find it disturbing that you made the statement that it has levels and experience when you yourself are not even on staff for Armageddon, and you can't even spell the muds name right, so your experience with it is obviously lacking. And a definition for RPI mud? It's already been posted, everyones definition for an Acronym in the MUD world is obviously going to differ from person to person, even when RPI is not a word we all know it means.. Role-Playing Intensive. With those three words any mud that is just Role-Play, is not an RPI we can all deduce, you have that Intensive in there for a reason, what is Intense? IMNSHO..
-Permadeath
-No levels
-No experience
-Detailed emoting system
-Well-written rooms/areas/objects/weapons
-Good solid code to support the roleplaying

Those are Intense things that make an RPI an RPI, they are INTENSE things that take away from the code(no levels) or support it (emote system).
Yes I play Armageddon MUD.

-Del

Tyche, the difference is that in Arm, you get better at doing something by doing it, sort of like in real life, you know the saying "practice makes perfect"? While in most non-RPIs, you kill mobs/do quests/etc. to get level ups which can make you better at completely unrelated things like hiding even if you never used the hide skill to gain that level. The difference is that an RPI puts realism before the ability to become uber-1337 or powerful (thus why your character dies when they die instead of comming back so they can rise to higher power) while many non-RPIs are the other way around.

An RPI is, plainly and simply, a game where the main focus is roleplay, and which offers the player a chance to create and act out a role.  The intensity is a difference of degree, and not something that disqualifies a place because they don't match some numerical criteria or have OOC mechanisms to help the player.

To my mind, the factor that makes a MUD successful at being roleplay intensive is having things that facilitate getting inside the role.  Delerak mentioned some -- the think command's another noteable one.  

That's where a lot of the code being decried as tedious comes into play, I think, such as getting one's clothes dusty when walking through a sandstorm, or finding that cooked food is more filling/satisfactory than uncooked.  They're not intended, though, to slow things down for the player and keep them from wandering off to spam kill fidos - they're there because they make the game world slightly more "real".  And that degree of adherence to gritty detail is not everyone's cup of tea - which seems fine to me.  

I like the occasional ramble on a hack and slash, and the drive to level, because it's a fun way to explore the game.  I've built a few areas on such games, and enjoyed the heck out of it, as anyone who's played Everwinter or the Midsummer Night's Forest on DarkCastle can testify -- they're silly and full of little pop culture references and jokes.  I like playing some console games because they're fun for different reasons, often revolving around graphics.  But if I want storytelling, a character and plotlines that makes me laugh or cry, I go to an RPI, because that's where they really shine.

Some hack and slashes get a bad rap because they're stock Diku (or ROM, or whatever flavor) and therefore tend to be the same as any other.  I like innovativeness and cool little features that I can explore, and so far I've found them more consistently on RPIs.  Which is not to say they don't exist elsewhere.

It seems a little disingenuous to me to say that the best roleplay doesn't happen in the environments that facilitate and encourage it the most.  Sure, it can happen elsewhere in lands replete with gossip and auction channels, but it's not going to flourish and self-perpetuate in the way it does when you're in an atmosphere where it's the main focus of the majority of the players.

I am currently giving New Worlds a try. While it is still in developement the players there are all focused on RP and enforce it themselves. The reasons I did not like SOI or Arm is because I didn't care for the theme. I gave SOI a try for over a month and Arm I spent a week or two. There was nothing wrong with the players, although some people take their emotes a little far. I just didn't care for the theme of the games. While New Worlds is lacking in areas like room descriptions and help files it is one of the friendliest places I've ever been. A lot of games send a welcome message to you once you enter but this game actually has players who will personally show the around the game and give you tips on how to get started and where the best newbie RP is.

In case anyone still reading this thread has muds to recommend I'll provide a few more details on what I'm looking for in case there is something other than whats been recommended that I may like. I want a game...

* where the focus is RP
* that is preferably fantasy themed, but I'm open to give others a try
* that is newbie friendly if possible

Well, if you don't like SoI or Arm based on their themes, than I'd recommend Harshlands. Completely different theme than either SoI or Arm with very strong religious influences(religions are practically non-existant in SoI and I believe in Arm as well) and strong cultural divides. There aren't as many players on Harshlands though, but you might want to give it a try if you haven't allready.

I've been talking about and comparing three different general classes of muds according to how role-playing is done, not just hack-n-slash Dikus vs. RPIs, but RPIs vs. pure role-playing muds.

For example:
Aardwolf hack-n-slash
Harshlands RPI
ElendorMush role-playing

It's rather obvious to me that muds like Harshlands and Armageddon do contain hack-n-slash games just like Aardwolf while incorporating some of the elements of pure role-playing games like Elendor and TrekMush. Skill-based development based on use is certainly not unique to RPI games. The finer abstraction of skill levels as opposed to character levels has been part of many hack-n-slash muds for a long time.

My objection is that RPI does not have specific criteria and is just another analog term that can describe a number of muds today, and is no longer codebase dependent (i.e Threshhold is an RPI mud, and there's a few RPI mushes - I listed them on an earlier thread). But most importantly the quality of role-playing on an RPI mud is not any better nor more intensive than a non-RPI role-playing mud, as opposed to it certainly being better than a typical hack-n-slash mud.

It seems the implementors have a more liberal definition than the players. Which is good. Were it that simple just comparing it to a pure game like stock Diku, but there are some pretty dramatic differences in role-play style compared with pure storyteller, freestyle or game mastered role-playing muds.

One thing I noticed that's different on RPI muds is the attitude towards a simulationist aspect being present. That is players are roleplaying against/with an environment. Coming from playing role-playing mushes, for the most part the players implement the environment or the reality. There's a lot more player control over the world. Yes our clothes get dusty, wet, torn, there are storms, and earthquakes, and our food tastes different probably in more ways than one could imagine or code.

There's also the presence of goal-based game that doesn't have anything to do with role-play; that is to say can be gamed, min/maxed mechanically like D&D, Gurps or Rolemaster. If you think about it, absent role-play enforcement, an RPI mud would devolve into a pure hack-slash mud. On many of the other styles of role-playing muds that don't have the goal-based game, absent role-play enforcement they would devolve into purely social environments like a talker and/or building based toy environments (i.e LambaMOO).

BTW I've also played and enjoyed many hack-n-slash muds as well like Artic, Batmud, Sojourn, and Ground Zero. I don't believe most people play specific games or even game types to the exclusion of others. I enjoy chess, card games, baseball, volleyball, quake, age of empires, civilization, wargaming, pen and paper rpgs, zork-style games, diplomacy, as well as role-playing muds.

I even play and enjoy the rather low role-playing immersion of a tabletop D&D dungeon hack-n-slash at the kitchen table, as well as the higher immersion of a tabletop Ars Magica campaign. One thing that would turn me off totally from a tabletop RPG is a game master who wouldn't tolerate any OOC social interaction between the players at all, or ran a game based solely on the game mechanics without making any judgements or situational rules up to handle events. Hmm I think that's gets to the core why I don't particularly enjoy RPI muds, or what some call RPIs.

Threshold is not an RPI, while it may be a "pure role-playing game" and have very inforced roleplaying, it has levels, lacks permadeath, and has global OOC channels.

And I never said anything about the quality of RPI RP being better than the quality of a "pure role-playing game"'s RP. It is different and really depends on opinion. I prefer the RP in RPI muds, but this doesn't mean they necessarily have "better" RP, just RP that I enjoy more. Somebody else might feel the exact opposite. That's what's so great about having a variety of muds to try.

Sure it is. It's got the same features and role-playing style that I find unenjoyable on Armegeddon. Last time I played Threshold (which was ages ago) you were punished for using the OOC channel too much, that may have changed. And the other stuff I mentioned in the post to Sanvean.

Permadeath certainly can't be a requirement... rather the immersion requirement I suspect is to implement the world realistically (realism along the lines of the underlying fantasy obviously). In a mostly deathless world like Vampyre or a world where resurrection or cloning is commonplace and part of "reality" would make permadeath "unreal" and non-immersive. So no that can't be a requirement, as neither would a definition requiring all RPI muds to meet the ridiculous notion that everyone is telepathic and can send tells to each other, or require the stage to be in a desert world.

You know the first implementor of an RPI mud to use the term RPI stated emphatically that who and score were OOC and didn't belong in an RPI mud. Hey it's a great point following right along the line of global channels. Where's that leave Armegeddon? In strictly non-RPI land. That is if you follow the specific criteria rather than a more reasonable and sensical analog criteria.

But yes Armegeedon has levels too. But I'm now repeating myself. It's meaningless distinction of game mechanics that have absolutely nothing at all to do with "intense role-playing" or the style of game. Whether you know OOCly that you are a level 10 thief on Threshold or you are a level 47 pick-pocket on Armeggedon doesn't make the experience any more intense or immersive. Whether it's hidden or open to inspection maybe. So what's the deal with the anti-immersive Armegeddon stat command? See above.

Well yeah we've gone full circle. Those who enjoy Armegeddon would be far far more likely to enjoy Threshold and vice versa than they would TrekMush or Shangrila. I'm not talking theme but role-playing style. Both Threshold and Armegeddon implement RPI style games, the others clearly don't. It's also apparent they have far less in common with Hack-n-slash games than do Armegeddon and Threshold. BTW neither refer to themselves as RPI muds. Doesn't mean they aren't though.

Do you mis-spell Armageddon purposefully or is English not your first language?

-Del

Isn't Armageddon technically a Hebrew and not English word?

As long as we're being nitpicky anyway.

I would have to say that Arm and Threshold are completely different types of games RP wise. Most of the people I know who enjoy playing RPIs and have played Threshold, don't like it. It isn't the same type of game at all.
And as for the whole "non-permadeath to increase immersion" thing, if people never die in the world, than I'm taking it that new people are never born either? Otherwise the world population would have serious problems. No such thing as assassins in such a world, why kill somebody when they pop back up? Necromancers(a class in Threshold IIRC) would have problems to if all their corpses jumped back up and started attacking them. There wouldn't be too much war, as it would last forever as soldiers got back up and continued fighting and eventually people would get bored, and realize nothing was going to happen. There would be no sense of courage really as people wouldn't be worried about doing something dangerous since they could pop back up all fine and dandy.

A mud could be set up so that the lack of permadeath increases immersion, but Threshold wasn't done that way, the permadeath was not included so that players would not have to make new characters when they died.

Yes it's 'har-megiddo' in hebrew which means mountain of Megiddo and 'megiddo' means his precious fruit. In latin, it's 'armagedon' because I suppose Romans couldn't spell very well either, and made the 'e' an 'a' and dropped the double 'd'. Later some english translator restored the double 'd'. I suppose in full English annoying translation mode it would be 'Fruit Mountain'. Since nobody straight would be caught dead on a mud called "Fruit Mountain", I don't blame them for sticking with Armegeddon... err Armageddon.

Hah, that's an interesting bit of information. I thought Armageddon was the end of the world. At least in english terms.

There was a thread discussing it on our boards