Why I leave MUDs - Misha's version
 

Re: Why I leave MUDs - Misha's version
 

Some points I agree with, some others I don't.

For instance, 2) I don't think it is the job of the MUD to babysit your character. And if you don't want to make any effort at all to find out whether the MUD is playable or not, then I don't think it is a loss to lose such a player either.

(1) I agree with.

(3) It depends. In my experience it was often said by some players who use other communications (like ICQ) who suddenly start the clique-metagaming on their own. It is often over-exaggerated. And if the underlying MUD code base is to one's liking, cliques won't be able to affect much (But I somewhat agree with you in a larger note, insofar that some players may purposely want to drive other players away. This is something that did not really exist ~20 years ago in the extent that I see it today. I think people got more aggressive on the WWW, at least some. )

(5) No idea about Levels because I don't play any MUDs with "levels". Levels are not a concept behind a virtual character. It seems to fit more into a hack and slay environment, where level 50 guys beat up level 30 guys. Is this any fun to you? To me it is not.
However the theme about taking time to become stronger exists in many games. You can't remove this easily, because that way you make your loyal players "stronger" and thus more interested in the game.


(6.) No one greets me.

Greets you where or how exactly? IC or OOCly?
Playerbase - it is a problem. Some players are just the type of "play to maximize all, then leave" style. You cant really have a MUD with such player types.

I think what is more interesting is which MUDs you found interesting (if you were to name not more than three).

Re: Why I leave MUDs - Misha's version
 

Re: Why I leave MUDs - Misha's version
 

Personally I consider (2) a pretty serious issue.

Last year someone posted their experiences as a new player on various muds, and really struck a chord with me: "I have no idea what to do from here. Interest lost, it was great up until this point, but there is no obvious direction to continue."

I've found myself in the same position on numerous occasions - I'm sitting on some mud, with no idea what I'm supposed to do next. I get bored. I quit. And so many times, I've heard newbies asking "What do I do now?" - or simply quit after reaching a point where they obviously didn't know what they were supposed to do next.

Muds are supposed to be fun, but having no idea what you're supposed to be doing is not fun. It's frustrating, and rapidly becomes boring. It's no coincidence that most muds have some sort of newbie school or tutorial, but if you're not careful those can also become boring - and if you just dump the player out of a guided experience and into a completely freeform one, all you've really done is postpone the problem.

Personally I prefer having some sort of that can be used whenever the player wishes. They can ignore it if they already know what they want to do, but if they ever get stuck they can use it to find out what to do next. In effect, it's an automation of the response given to newbies when they ask "What should I do now?", tailored to their specific situation.

Re: Why I leave MUDs - Misha's version
 

This is what I meant. I did not exactly mean the game babysits you. I would not even mind a help file such as help WHATNOW -- or even a tutorial like you said.

I found a game last night which had a help file like this. I still got somewhat lost, because whenever you read a sign, and go the direction to a village/city you never exactly go straight to it. You're basically stuck on some road.. -__-

Needless to say, I left their MUD.

Meh, I just left a MUD because it was so boring, and there was no help besides someone giving me a tour. -_-

The latest dislike on some MUDs; I hate other players who refuse to help newbies.

Re: Why I leave MUDs - Misha's version
 

I proposed "a command or dynamic help file" because they're passive rather than active - you just access them if/when you need them, and can follow or ignore the suggestions as you see fit. It's less intrusive, it's there's when you need it but doesn't force you to jump through any hoops.

However the important part is that the suggestions are context sensitive, so if it were done with a help file it would need to be dynamic. Relatively few muds support dynamic help files, and even those that do may find it preferable to use a command.

Almost all muds have a "who" command. I'd like to see more offering a "what" command as well :)

Re: Why I leave MUDs - Misha's version
 

Re: Why I leave MUDs - Misha's version
 

Pretty good reasons. :) Well except #5, that doesn't bother me, I kinda like level/align ltd eq.

Re: Why I leave MUDs - Misha's version
 

I actually agree with a few points. I was playing a game once that had a great tutorial quest. I followed it and got a few levels. Then, it basically said "head east to town and find your destiny" * So I did, eager to find all this content that their ad promised. I was basically in this big world with no clue what to do. I asked about tradeskills, which was the sole reason I tried this game out and it was "something I should think of when I Hit higher levels. *"

*quotes changed to protect the game and that I don't remember them exactly :/

Also I want to add another. I left your game because everything cool needs to be approved by someone before I can play.. The guild applications, character names or even the character itself. Some games are different, like Armageddon, which I don't mind waiting for. I guess because I've been playing there on and off for years. But other games, I have to wait and when I get in, sometimes I'm disappointed. It's kind of a let down.

Re: Why I leave MUDs - Misha's version
 

Help files are good, but not good enough.

What's needed is a group whose responcibility is to contact any newbie quickly to help them not only with the basics, but to also give them a 'boost' in the direction they want ther character to go in. Then from time to time check up on them to see if they are moving in their desired direction.

Marrach had the Awakeners, a group created by players dedicated to helping all newbie players get into the Game. But as time went on, and things became colder due to player politics, the group itself became only a shell of its former self--leaving the initial introductions to any player who even cared to help.

In other MUD's the way to do this is for Guilds and Groups with in the Game's Universe to have some of its members be on the look out for strangers that appear in city/town/village/land, get to know them and then try steering them towards becomming a member or the members guild/group. This activity can defeat the reasons Misha setablished for leaving a MUD; The newbie becomes emersed in the MUD, takes interests in what goes on, and in turn helps the MUD grow...

There isn't much I can do about Inner Circles, Cliques, Rude Players, or, in what happened to me with Marrach, being burned by players who lie to staff to get what they want and other players who wanted me to play in the manner they wanted (which in my opinion kills Role Play), except to do what Misha does--go find another MUD to play.

Darren Brimhall

Re: Why I leave MUDs - Misha's version
 

I got caught in that once: A Key that isn't a Key...

It turned out to be a Statue of a Beaver. Even the person who told me the clue, after the plot was finished, admitted that the clue was way too vague for anyone to figure out.

Darren Brimhall

Re: Why I leave MUDs - Misha's version
 

Re: Why I leave MUDs - Misha's version
 

Wowza! This is New Worlds Ateraan and that was our chief of staff who rarely goes that far to help a new player. Not because we don't care about new players, but because the staff at NWA is very busy with 100's of things. On the contrary, NWA is likely the most new player friendly of all the RP enforced games.

We have a staff and guides (junior staff) who soul job is to assist new players in the game and other players issues. We have a full tutorial that is optional to brand new players to text games. We have very well documented help files and a new player system to help them. I think it is one of the best and I think the other players are very interactive but you must also be interactive too.

What you likely found is that we do require you to immerse yourself in your character and the easiest way to become part of the game is to engage in roleplay with others. If you are thinking things are handed on your plate like in WoW, or Facebook, or other online systems that cater to the gimme gimme gimme of today's youth, you likely do get bored in Text games. :cool:

Re: Why I leave MUDs - Misha's version
 

Re: Why I leave MUDs - Misha's version
 

Re: Why I leave MUDs - Misha's version
 

How mature, New Worlds. Are you really going to waste your time bashing me?

Re: Why I leave MUDs - Misha's version
 

Hi. I'm a player of NW. Not that anybody needed any further evidence of your immature actions, but, here's a section of the previous log you chose not to include for some strange reason.

Sasami <CHAT> You were a complete ******
Arkaanon <CHAT> ****** is not acceptable
Koreg <CHAT> heya sasami? You can hate all you want, but read help respect,
hm?
<CHAT> Zikuski thinks sasami has some pent up issues
Linnie <CHAT> yeah, lets not say that on chat
Sasami <CHAT> ******?
Koreg <CHAT> then show a bit of respect after done reading said helpfile.
Quidon <CHAT> And if I'm a ***, BOY am I playing my character well. After all,
I'm a girl IRL playing a gay dude IC.
> Alzheni <CHAT>
<CHAT> Evanear smooches Quidon lovingly
Alzheni <CHAT> This song is for everyone on chat
Sasami <CHAT> I can't say ****** up in front of some ******* face?
Ayumi <CHAT> Also, Evanear, you still didn't manage to send me your last song
Tiberia <CHAT> quidon hahahaha
Mela <CHAT> ...
<CHAT> Linnie hugs Quidon
Zikuski <CHAT> help respect, sasami
Alzheni <CHAT> Dude, you are clearly a 14 year old boy, you should probably
continue playing Runescape or something
Zikuski <CHAT> read it
Koreg <CHAT> then go to and look up respect.
<CHAT> Evanear rolls on the floor laughing
Tiberia <CHAT> icant resist
Sasami <CHAT> At least WoW and Runescape has a more active player base.
Myrthal <CHAT> dont hate on runescape
Koreg <CHAT> alzheni..runescape is past him. I'd recommennd neopets.
Alzheni <CHAT> no one cares about your half hearted trolling attempts

I think it's very unfortunate that I, many other players, and staff, greeted you with nothing but the respect that everybody deserves, and you responded in such a disingenuous and inappropriate fashion. Particularly that you choose to attack a player that kindly spent a good portion of her evening yesterday bending over backward to try and help you.

Re: Why I leave MUDs - Misha's version
 

Re: Why I leave MUDs - Misha's version
 

Don't feed the troll. Mods? Eject this guy please. Misha, if you ever play and leave my MUD, I sincerely hope it is because someone slaughtered you mercilessly, full looted your corpse, and sacrificed your heart to the dark lord, but I'll happily settle for you never making it through boring character creation.

Re: Why I leave MUDs - Misha's version
 

Re: Why I leave MUDs - Misha's version
 

While Misha Locke was apparently just trolling (and I wonder if the name was really a coincidence), I do think some of the original points had merit. In particular, points 1 and 2 are issues that I've encountered on many other muds (and which I've tried to improve on my own). Lowering the entry barrier for new player is a good goal to strive for.

Re: Why I leave MUDs - Misha's version
 

Kavir,

I agree as well; some of the points I do consider legitimate:

1- long character creation. I've personally left muds simply for this reason.

2 - no initial goal or quest. This is a bigger problem than most people realize, and it's harder to solve well than most think.

3 - inner circles and cliques. I only consider this a problem when it involves favoritism by the staff. I've largely tried to deal with it by restricting immortal powers and making the god/mortal social interface well defined. Other than that, player only groups and cliques IMHO should be ignored by the staff until they cause break harassment or other rules.

4 - rude players and immortals. IMHO, this depends on the forum. We allow very little rudeness on the newbie helper channels, but substantially more on other channels. Player created channels are moderated by the players, so if you don't like someone being rude, leave their channel, kick them off the channel, or ignore them.

5a - slow leveling. This really depends on what you mean by slow; at low levels, getting a couple levels an hour is no big deal. At the extreme upper levels, it can take a minimum of an entire month to gain a single level. One thing we've been trying to work on is make it so that mob grinding isn't required at lower levels. It's entirely possible to get up to level ten never going through the same area twice, but after that things get more grindy.

5b - level restricted equipment. This is entirely personal taste, and I personally like level restricted equipment. I like a lot of other restrictions too, and we have a plethora of different eq restriction options to let us build different stuff.

6 - ignoring newbies. This I disagree with. True newbies generally do NOT want to talk to anyone until after they get their bearings. Too much comm traffic too early is worse than leaving them in isolation. Someone who already knows what a mud is and who wants to chat will easily find a way to do so, but by default games should be silent and peaceful until the player gets a handle on things. We connect them to one channel at level 2, and a couple more as they gain more levels.

-dentin

Alter Aeon MUD

Re: Why I leave MUDs - Misha's version
 

Some reasons I leave MUDs

1. I'm faced with a boring grind in order to explore new zones, killing the same things over and over and over...

2. Exploration and experimentation lead to a death that involves loss of xp and boring corpse runs. Popular MMORPGs stopped doing this sort of thing a long time ago. Being bounced back to the graveyard when you die is penalty enough.

Re: Why I leave MUDs - Misha's version
 

I agree with dentin's third assessment, having personally experienced this at a MUD that I have spoken about at length on this board (and at numerious times).

One method of dealing with this would be to have this group of characters publicly chastened by a high ranking NPC for their attitudes and behavior...

And having such a high ranking noble taking such action should make the rp there quite interesting for everybody else.


Darren Brimhall

I think the OP makes a lot of valid points in the original post before going into troll mode later on in the thread. MUD developers should keep a lot of them in mind, as I think they ring true.

However I disagree with one point specifically:

The fact is that MUDs, particularly more roleplay-oriented ones, are social games. People will form social circles in social games. Always. If the absence of this kind of behaviour is a "make it or break it" condition for you then it may explain why you don't enjoy MUDs.

Re: Why I leave MUDs - Misha's version
 

I fall on the other side of this issue. There's a big difference between: 1) forming an in-game social circle and really enjoying the playing style and company of certain people and the characters they've created, while still being a wholesome, contributing, supportive member of your mud's community at large, ever interested in making the mud a welcoming and fun place for all players; and 2) forming a (mostly) out of character social circle that makes the game unwelcoming or even downright hostile to newcomers or people the circle doesn't like due to a personal belief that the playing style and characters of the circle's members are somehow superior and ideal for the mud, while the mud can do just fine without the people they don't like.

Re: Why I leave MUDs - Misha's version
 

Unfortunately, #2 exsists quite exstensively at that Game I've been often critical of on this board--having exsperienced it first hand while helping a player with ADHD who only wanted to have fun.

And while the OOC social circle's members in that Game are somehow superior and ideal for that Game, their hostility and unwelcoming style alone would slowly stagnate and eventually kill the Game off.

Especially as bad word of mouth circulates about that Game over what's considered 'Good RPing' there.


Darren Brimhall

Re: Why I leave MUDs - Misha's version
 

It's an unfortunate problem that will always exist because it's part of human nature.

Re: Why I leave MUDs - Misha's version
 

I refer to it as 'Ego'

Darren Brimhall