Yesterday I was trying to convince a friend of mine to include permadeath in his MUD and I told him that most hardcore RP'ers prefer to have permadeath, but I don't really know for sure, so here goes.

Note: I'm not necessarily talking about 1 death and you're out. In fact I personally prefer that there be some type of resurrection spell(s) so that any given death may or may not be permanent. So if you prefer any particular "flavor" of permadeath, post that too.

I voted 'maybe', meaning, 'it depends on the theme of your mud.'
I think most of the pro-permadeathers prefer it because they find it more realistic. On a mud with a realistic theme, it would be silly to meet the person you killed. But, in some fantasy themes, it can be handled well to make sense.
For example, in xyllomer, religion is a big part of the roleplay. Resurrections are just part of the many manifestations of divine power and rewards for faith that you see everyday. (Well, not every day unless you've got some serious issues). So if permadeath were put in, I think that the world would definitely lose something.
In general, I feel that if you can make resurrections make sense ic'ly, you should use them, because permadeath hinders gameplay somewhat. But then, I'm only 80% roleplayer, so the other 20% cares about silly stuff like that.

There is. When a character dies, you force the player to create a new one - but allow the player to carry over their experience points to spend on the new character. Thus the player now has a new character, with a new name, appearance, occupation, etc - but they're at the same level of power as the previous character (although that "power" might now be in a different field). Thus when Bubba the Barbarian is killed in combat, his player is able to create a Boffo the Bard, who's magical and musical abilities are at the equivilent rating as Bubba's fighting skills had been. This is also a good way of restricting advanced character concepts to experienced players only.

Having experienced both, I have to say I much prefer permadeath for a veriety of reasons.

The first, is that it just makes sense. I mean - okay I start my character as being 20 years old...and the world goes through however many game-years while I'm playing...and after a few years of playing, she's now 80 years old and is more powerful than she was when she started? That's just silly. 80 year old people break their hips, they don't go hunting.

The second, is that it promotes roleplay. How many people shrug off death because it's just a hit to their exp, no big deal? How many people start changing their focus from staying alive for RP purposes, to staying alive to avoid an exp drain?

The third, is because it makes me REALLY think hard about my character's behavior and reactions to her environment. She's not gonna just go off to the desert so I can check out her new skills, even though it doesn't make RP sense that she do so - because the moment I leave the gate, it could be the end of my character.

The fourth, is because there's nothing quite as awesome as sitting at your desk and staring incredulously at your screen during an assassination scene, with tears rolling down your eyes while your heart is pounding wildly, thinking two things at the same time: "WOAH - she's dead. I can't believe she's f-ing dead." and "Okay so what character am I gonna try next!"

The main advantage of the typical (RPI) permadeath system - as well as the realism factor - is that it helps avoid stagnation. There is little point in assassinating the king if he's just going to respawn back at the temple and order your execution.

The main disadvantage of the typical (RPI) permadeath system is that most players dislike losing all the time and effort they've put into their character.

Allowing a set number of deaths therefore has the same disadvantages as regular permadeath, but without the advantages; you'll eventually lose all of your hard work, but equally you cannot assassinate your clan leader, king, or whoever, and expect to get away with it.

It's called "internal consistency". A mud should be consistent and believable within its own rules of reality. It might not be "realistic" to throw fireballs at someone in real life, but it is within the themes of many muds. Equally, while it may be realistic within some themes to be instantly and automatically reincarnated every time you die, within most it is not. This is also why it is generally undesirable to have the smurf village, the dwarven daycare centre and Mega-City One areas within a roleplaying mud - they are not internally consistent with each other (nor within the themes of most muds). Now you could well say "If you want realism stop playing games and go live life", but the fact is that most roleplayers would find such inconsistency anathema to an immersive roleplaying environment. As such, they're more likely to just leave your game and go find someone else's, which is not the sort of result most mud owners are aiming for.

IThe following is an opinion. Mine. I do not intend criticism of anyone who feels differently.

I admit, I don't understand the allure of holding on to characters that should be dead. The idea of investing in a pc makes no sense to me. The thought of starting over doesn't bother me. After all, you can't "win" an rpi.

I need perma death. If a mud offers alternatives to a permananet and final end I can't bring myself to play. Or to even consider playing. This, needless to say, severely curtails my options.

You could just delete your character when you die...

It's not the same. I want that immediacy. I don't want a choice. I don't want anyone else to have a choice. I think no death or a choice makes the whole thing feel contrived.

Some intriguing ideas for rolling over xp/skills to new characters after one dies, but I am not sure if it solves the problem.
Is that time and effort invested in a char that people are worried about losing what they spent earning xp and learning skills, or what they spent developing their character socially? We are talking about RPI's here.
For me, when I've tried permadeath muds, I've been frustrated when my character dies, because I had (what I thought) was a good idea, and plans for the character that I hadn't a chance to see to fruition. Or as characters grow older, they get more complex, more interesting. It's really sad to lose them then. The xp and skills are just busy work, or part of what the character does because who she is.

Exactly my point, it is sad to lose them. It's sad to see other people's PC's die. I want to be sad. I want to cry and laugh and sweat and have to make each moment matter. It you can't lose them, what's the point. Might as well just play the sims. If you can't die, what stops it from just being a big chat room?

Well said, and that about sums up the way I feel.

With permadeath, you have to -care-. It's not just the code working, instead you create a -character- with a -life- and -feelings-.

Without it, it's just numbers and words, rushing about killing things. You die, **** it, just get your friends to help you get a new suit. That's not how I want to Roleplay.

The solution here would prevent you losing everything. You'd still lose the social development of your character in terms of interaction with other players - and therefore, death would still be a serious issue. However you would at least salvage some of your work, so players wouldn't feel as if they'd lost everything that they'd spent the last few hundred hours working on. Furthermore, even from a social point of view, as the son or daughter of your previous character you'd have good grounds to retain relationships with those you knew in your previous "life". From a game design point of view, it would encourage players not to simply quit for good when they die.

I'm not sure I see this as a solution to the whole problem though.

First - this could be abused by anyone who is "tired" of their old character.  Don't want to play Bubba the Barbarian, just kill him off and start up Reggie the Ranger.  And since all of us game designers know game balance is very hard to attain - imagine a problem in design where certain levels are easier for different classes because of skills and spells.  Any Industrious player with a brain will abuse it by "changing" his class at the "required" level to be able to level faster.  I know we could code in "safeties" for this ... but it's the principle that lacks I believe.

Second - I don't really think that type of system addresses the issue of permadeath vs. "resurrection" anyways.  Permadeath offers finality in it's most extreme.  The character is done.  The there is no undoing it.  The time you spent on him/her/it, while not "lost" perse (based on what you learned and the fun you gained while playing), is over.  This character can never be used again.  Allowing players to "recreate" based on their last character's level and exp while an inconvenience, doesn't really offer the "loss" that permadeath does.  I think the one post in this thread hit it spot on - permadeath "forces" you to care more about the character than any sort of resurrection system.

Now I agree - that spells and a deity system where resurrection CAN happen, but is not guaranteed, is the best.  This is what I am coding into my Mud.  This allows for a higher caliber of Roleplaying, AND offers a system where dying isn't just an inconvenience.

One last point (in this long ramble), I think it is important to note, that no one system is better than the others.  I feel it comes down to which type of player do you want to attrach.  "You can't please all the people all the time.  But you can please some people most of the time."  Which 'people' do you want to please most of the time?

I believe that one of the biggest advantages of permadeath in a PvP system is the ability of the populace to eliminate jerks who need it. The ability to keep some or all of your skills just obviates the whole point of permadeath.

When having character generations, I would actually suggest that neither parent be the one to play the kid. Rather, let the parents set a total time played or highest level reached, such that any player who dies and is above that level or time can choose to play the kid (except for the parents, who are completely restricted from playing the kid.) That way, you maintain character separation and ensure that the kid will be roleplayed as an individual rather than as puppet of his/her parents. Whether friends with the parents are also friends with the kid or not will depend on how much the kid takes after his parent's likeable characteristics, or on how much the players feel they have a duty to their friends' children.