What turns people from RP?
 

Hi.
OK, I see alot of people that seem to ask for muds that have no type of RP, my question is why?
What turns people away from rp, what keeps them from wanting to majorly developing a character and playing through a story and theme?
I find rp to be great myself, and so thats why I am curious as to why its not really liked but alot of people.

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

From players that have been through NWA which is a serious roleplaying game they state that sometimes you just want to play and lay waste without having to worry about playing in a role, or staying in character. No rules man, no rules!

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

Well. Its what NW said plus some people strike friendships with people and instead want to just talk to friends and hang out with the gang while smashing stuff up and leveling a character up (majorly developing the character in that particular way) instead of getting entangled in long complicated storylines that involve regular time online and investment of mental energies into plot development. Something one can want to do especially at the end of a hard day at work when one may not really have the energy to plot how to lay seige to the enemy castle or overthrow the other faction through political intrigue. RP CAN become a very time taking activity and some people dont really have the time, or the residual mental capacity to invest that much of time. When they return the plot has moved on and they have lost track of what has been happening and its frustrating to keep losing out on RP action because of work/school/college. My point is- its either desire for just do one's own thing, or preferring to socialise OOC/explore the world or raise stats in small installments or thirdly sheer frustration with repeatedly loosing the picture on ongoing RP because of RL stuff and giving up on the whole thing.

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

Roleplayers are my main turn off. The kind of people that want to talk about the age of their leather flasks are the opposite of fun for me - I'd rather roleplay develop through the actions of my character (so it's very dependent on the MUD actually being able to allow me to do certain things). This is opposed to the "emote for 2 hours in a tavern" style of roleplayer that self described roleplayers seem to enjoy.

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

It's hard to RP outside your favorite genre. I'd really like to RP a smurf, smurfette to be precise, and roleplaying anything else just plain simply turns me off, big time.

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

I think RPing is fun, but when it's enforced it kind of kills it for me. You want to have fun and not have to be in character all the time and I think most people think that.

Other than that most people just think pretending to be someone else is just weird. :/

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

I get turned off by the snotty attitude of certain roleplayers.

Once I played a RP enforced mud, where some players - mostly female - used to sit by the fountain in the main square, emoting endless rants about how the wind softly lifted the hem of their delicately flowered dress, or about rainbows forming in the water, when they dipped their dainty fingers into the fountain. The same players used to sneer at newcomers, for not reaching their self-appointed high standard of roleplay.

A standard that, at least to me, was narcissistic, longwinded, boring and added absolutely nothing to any plot. It was more about boosting their ego than interacting with other people.

Personally I enjoy moderate RP and admire players that manage to stay IC all the time, but I don't fancy forcing rules down people's throats. I also prefer a faster pace, where you don't have to wait out 6-line emotes from others, especially if they are slow typers.

Give me snappy one-liners at any time!

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

What turns me off is MUSH players, as a general rule. There's a concept among the MUSH community that ability at roleplay is how much you can overinflate your prose.

That turns me away from those sorts of RP communities. I find that most any MUD with enforced rp is okay, as long as it's not everyone constantly teapartying.

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

Heh, that's funny. Many people complain about this, but it is a style of MUSH and some roleplayers to do long poses and with some even to the detriment of the roleplay.

This works in some environments with a small player base and patient players. In NWA it only works in small groups or settings. Most of these types of players have come to learn that with numerous players and alot of things going on, you have to turn to quality rather than quantity in terms of prose and pose. Good roleplaying doesn't necessarily equate to lengthy roleplaying.

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

Judging from their comments, Molly and GhostInAProgram have probibly visited Castle Marrach.
I'm not kidding, RP there is strictly enforced. Way too strict, because if you make a mistake, the simplist mistake with your character, you are made to play it--sorry, no excuses allowed. A rule that is strictly enforced by favored players towards the Staff they keep in power, and too bad if you're not in the loop.

I'm very glad I left that place.

Honestly, I don't mind RP if there is a proper logic to it that helps to advance both story and character, and the Players all respect the fact that their fellows will make mistakes. The whole point is, games should be both fun and relaxing. Who wants to play a game where any mistake can cost everything your character has worked for, or you're forced to pla with your arm twisted behind your back.

Certainly not me.


Darren Brimhall

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

Not everyone is cut out to be an actor. That's what RP is kind of. Acting a role. Many people just wanna have fun to paraphrase the Lauper. You might be aware that mudders have been pigeonholed into these 4 types (and in my experience is pretty spot on...) Explorers (who don't want to play a role they just want to poke their noses into everything and find out the truth) Achievers (who just want to be BMOC ;) Socializers (who wanna shoot the breeze with others, not pretend to be something else) and Killers (who are just being their psychopathic selves <grin>). Role Players are perhaps a 5th element here. Or a subtype of the Socializers if I were to hazard a guess.

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

In Second Life, a Builder, TedTheRushFan, had this bit of insight which he shared...


Games should be played for Fun, not Ego...


That right there practictly says it all on this matter. Too many egoists would spoil any game, and turn people off from RPing.


Darren Brimhall

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

I play for both ego and fun.

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

That'll lead to problems in my opinion. Especially if what you wanted to do with your character doesn't come to pass, or other players (and the Staffers they support) frustrate youat every turn.

That's when Ego kicks in, and the trouble starts.


Darren Brimhall

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

If only that were true. Come to us Milla.

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

Acting has nothing to do with it. Its Imagination.

All we are are kids playing in the sandbox with our action-figures and barbie dolls, busily creating a world of make-believe that we act out in through our toys.

Enviorment is another factor, and why I stepped away from Marrach; it was too hostile and dominated overwhelmingly by power-players and the corrupt Staff they supported. There would have been no way for any sort of fair RP occuring with my characters, and I, like Keir's player, wasn't about to grovel and brown-nose my way back into their graces or for their pleasure...Especially when no one was ever going to allow my characters the chance to rise up again no matter what they did.

So, Imagination and Enviroment would be the two factors I'd look at with any MUD before 'jumping in'. Dose one allow the other to thrive?

Darren Brimhall

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

For Tristan it has everything to do with it and acting is indeed a huge part of roleplay and some people do not wish to do that. For you, yes, it may be the environment but for many players it has to do with whether or not they wish to play a role or not.

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

I find this question really entertaining since we run an RP enforced game and an IC enforced game, but I know EXACTLY what the OP is saying because I get the same feeling whenever I play an MMO.

At the very heart of it all, MUDs are games, and people play games in very different ways. When I play a MUD, I prefer to find an RP setting because I enjoy writing, describing my character, and playing something very different than I am in real life.

In an MMO, however, I play on RP servers only if they offer serious PvP, and that's only because I find that PvP can be very fulfilling (and often easier) on RP servers. Also, I can't help but giggle to myself a little bit when I'm killing someone while they're delayed by their RP scripts. I find interacting with other players on MMOs extremely clunky, slow, and in general, not conducive to RP at all... especially with everyone going to Vent. When I'm typing out what my character is saying, it allows me a separation and distance that lets me play my character without being self-concious. There's absolutely no way for me to do that via voice. You'll very rarely catch me RPing on an MMO because I feel like it's a waste of time and absolutely NOT FUN. I like the graphics for dimensional PvP and positionals.

It's not very hard then for me to translate how I feel to how some people might feel on a MUD. People often feel that their avatar is an extension of themselves. Some people have no desire to RP and prefer to let the game mechanics and their stats build their character. Others are intimidated by RP and don't want to be forced to do it all the time. Others just don't want to work that hard when playing a game. Still others just think it's plain stupid. And ultimately, people aren't born equal. Some people have a gift for RPing and others have it in varying degrees. Like anything else, people who aren't comfortable or good at it, may not enjoy it as much as the people who like it no matter how good they are at it.

I do think that RP enforced games that are unforgiving of basic mistakes and don't make allowances for new players drive a lot of people to swear off RP enforced games forever.

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

I think there's roleplay and roleplay.

You don't have to be hugely imaginative or have a post graduate degree in theater studies in order to maintain the basic standards of roleplay an IRE game or Lithmeria require. It's really not that difficult to NOT talk about pizza or world of warcraft on a public channel in a game set in a fantasy setting. I think the word 'roleplay' tends to conjure up images of page long emotes about the dew on a rose, when in actuality it can be as simple as putting yourself into the shoes of your character.

I'm a pretty terrible roleplayer. I never create characters with entirely different personalities. All my characters are simply reflections of me, placed in a situation where I can kill people at will and run a city or something. I just act naturally.

- Elvy

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

For me, Roleplaying is a combination of imagination and acting. you imagine yourself to be a character, and you act the way that you think that character would. I agree with Elvarlyn, too- some of my characters are very much like me, with the exception of them having the abilities that I don't have. RP is quite a personal thing, really, isn't it? Some people revel in playing what they feel is a direct opposite of themselves- perhaps they play an all-out evil SOB or someone who's very akin to nature- but they still incorporate themselves into a character. People who want to play a MUD and just want to try life out as an Elven scout or a Demonic priest, well, they wouldn't have much fun on an enforced RP game. I personally don't get involved with MUSHes because I am turned off by the whole 'six-line emote' reputation that MUSHes have. I don't want to wait for a well-thought-out constructed response. I want the real-time action and the 'witty one-liners'. RP's often about how quick you are on your feet, and how well you adapt to playing someone who is not you. You get to think like your character, and react as your character would; for me, that's what makes it so awesome.

I'm amused by the idea that some people think 'people pretending to be someone else is weird'. How about plays, or films, or most TV shows? Watching someone pretending to be someone else seems perfectly acceptable- and yet the idea of actually taking part in a plot and making your way with a character seems 'weird' to some. I suppose what puts people off RP is what perhaps made them hesitant to join in with RP in the first place- it's wild, it's unpredictable, and if it's done well, it can be emotionally involving. I agree that having to be logged in to a certain place at a certain time (I know all about awkward times, as I'm a good five hours forward in timezones than most MUDders) is a real pain in the arse, but I've played a lot of MUDs and good RP and fun wasn't all about being at a town meeting or whatever. The most fun I've had has been small meetings, impromptu gatherings and chance meetings in a tavern somewhere.

Anyway, Roleplaying will always be down to what an individual enjoys. It's imagination, it's acting, it's running about as an elf/demon/lord/cleric whatever. I suppose it boils down to playing a game where you're not just yourself; and for a lot of people, that can be a welcomed break.

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

I really enjoy a good RP game, but I find that I can play on very few of the RP games that are available.

For one thing, I hate pose order and for another I hate long winded speeches or even short speeches if it takes too long to develop. I like RP be to fast paced and exciting. When people emote, pose, say .... whatever in a sentence or two they can normally keep the pace moving, but as soon as someone starts to write a paragraph each time they need to do something, the pacing just dies.

I also dislike having to emote every time I walk through a room another character is in. Sometimes I just want to go from point A to point B. And what's worse is when I'm expected to wait for a response and it turns out the person I'm waiting for went out for a pizza and just decided to stay logged into the game.

I really dislike having to submit a character concept before I can get into a game. I just stopped even trying to play those types of game. I have never found one that was worth the time and if you are going to make me wait a week before I can even log in, well, it better be a friggin' awesome game and I just haven't seen it.

I like OOC in a game. Its a game after all and some times I like to BS. I prefer OOC to be on its own channel that can be turned on/off at will and I don't spend time on games that try to block OOC.

I also like numbers. I'm offended by roleplayers who think that if I know what my AC value is or how much damage my sword does or how many hitpoints I have it makes me unable to roleplay. If anything I believe the opposite is true. Numbers allow a player to quantify the effect of a situation or object and then it's up to the player to convey that information in IC terms. Without numbers its just vague guesswork based on vague descriptions.

And lastly, I hate it when players tell you stuff about their character and then complain when you mention it in game, because they told you OOC. I'm all for keeping IC and OOC separate, but if you shot your mouth off about your plains to assassinate someone in game don't cry when your target hears about it and starts to prepare for the attack. This leads to the dreaded "let's null that RP" What the heck is that - a do over? If you are a plotter in game, keep your secrets to yourself.

Sombalance

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

Loved your whole rant Sombalance, but I just have to highlight some of the especially good parts.

No kidding, this is classic and happens more often than it should.
Bahahahaha. Amen. I never understood having to write a huge concept when you don't have much of a clue about the current politics, story, flow, geography, or balance of the game. I mean seriously, are you kidding, making someone read your 100 page manual to play your game. Pfft. Perhaps 20 or 30 years ago.

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

I just had to quote this because it's one of my pet peeves as well. Don't tell me anything about your character that you don't want me to know IC or OOC. It's even worse when a player expects the administration to do something about this because then I wasn't even privy to the original conversation. What's worse is when BOTH players expect admins to do something about this, putting us in an impossible situation.

Anyway, I definitely agree that if a character is supposed to be some sort of super secret sneaky character, don't blab stuff OOC.

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

Not everyone enjoys role-play for a variety of reasons. Some simply aren't good at it. Some don't have the patience for it. Some are really only interested in more arcade-like functions. It really comes down to the personality of the player.

Many don't want to develop a character because they just want arcade-gameplay. Hack'n'slash, score points and "win". Some are lazy and don't want to take time to do anything; they want instant gratification. Some are simply incapable of developing a character be it on account of a lack of creativity, lack of an adequate attention span or laziness about going through any sort of creation process. Again, it boils down to the personality of the player.

Different strokes for different folks. My issue is with those who don't want a particular type of game but then go and play it and try to change it into something different. For example, players who don't want to develop three-dimensional characters and are really only interested in combat and PKing playing RPIs. If you don't want to role-play, go play a non-RP MUD. Don't complain when your actions get squashed by staff because you're just H&Sing your way through the gameworld.

Games that fail to enforce their own style in order to attract or satisfy new players typically lose the players that made them popular in the first place. One need only look at the RPIs who've lost so many of their veteran players by dumbing down their role-play standards and enforcement. The best RPI today doesn't hold a candle to the worst RPI of ten years ago. Looking at all of the great players who've walked away from RPIs because of this drop in quality can be painful, especially when compared to what passes for players and staff nowadays on some RPIs.

Long story short: Players, play the games that suit your personality and gameplay style. If it's not a match, don't try to change the game, go look for another. With hundreds of games out there, you're likely to find one that does match what you're looking for. Staff, remember that a larger playerbase isn't everything especially if you end up sacrificing what made your game worth playing in the first place to achieve it.

Take care,

Jason aka Falco

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

Many players base their decision to play on the playable enviroment of the Game, and from there weither or not its worth their while in the long run to play.

With Marrach, which is where Tristan's from, you faced the problem, as all newbies do, of dealing with people who were either simply too gosh-darned friendly or simply insulted by the fact that you were there next to them. We lost a lot of would-have-been players because of those exstreams because they were simply put off by the behavior of the established players. Then we had issues of being met with resistance from Staff on plots, overall sour attitudes and the closed minds of the players, and finally the egotistial 'power players' who'd insist upon 'keeping Ic Ic, and OOC OOC' to the point they wouldn't listen to why you couldn't properly RP due to Real Life issues.

Honestly, that closed mindedness killed it for me after almost ten years. Compaired to the vibrancy found in Ironclaw, Marrach is stagnate. And I can say that because I have friends that are still there. Nothings changed, nothing moves--and the newbies spot this with in two weeks of their arrival and go elsewhere.

So, Enviroment is the best way, in my opinion, to judge not only if its acceptable to the Player's style of RP but also the Game's overall health in the long run.


Darren Brimhall

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

This is are fairly negative. While much of it may be true, there are players that do want to develop a character, aren't lazy, are capable with descriptions and creativity, have attention span, but just have a different way of roleplaying than ten paragraph emotes or other roleplay style (name any style). I'm not talking about ooc rules I'm talking about roleplay style and game setup.

In reference to what I said above. This is golden. If you don't like the style of a game (be it a MUSH or other style of play) do not try to change it as a newbie joining the game. The game is what it is because of its rules and style.

This may cause a derail of the topic so I'm putting in a new thread perhaps this can be answered better here:

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

Yeah. As another in the Second Life universe of things, one guy I know pretty much quit do to, "too much drama". This is a "post apocalyptic" "dark RP" series of sims, so you get a lot of people doing pretty nasty things to other people, a lot of time spent trying to dance around the issue that X moron doesn't want his stuff touched, even if there is an RP reason for it, others not wanting to RP with Y or Z, because of some random thing that happened a year ago, etc. Basically, instead of playing a part, people invest themselves in the role so much that they get offended when the universe doesn't play nice with them, or they insist on dragging stuff up from way back, when it wasn't even the same character, or role, or situation. And, that is without even mentioning the fools that can't keep real life out of it.

We even have one bunch that jumped ship (you will never see this with a mud, at least not in the same server.. lol) to change their two sims into a different combat system, because they where *convinced* that all the changes being made to streamline the system, fix bugs, adjust race strengths against each other, and prevent people making stupidly over powered weapons, was all about "making money". Same bunch spends a lot of time now complaining how there are not enough people visiting (including me, since, under a new system, I can't show up as my "future" self, like I could when it was still in the same system).

You get ego, politics, and just general dumb, and if you end up the target of all three, or even a lot of one...

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

Just out of personal curiosity, how old is Ironclaw as opposed to Marrach?

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

I play on a roleplaying enforced game 99% of the time, but every so often I get the urge to go find some of the more hack n' slash titles out there. When I do this I don't want to have to bother with any sort of RP because I'm already putting enough thought and effort into my character on the game that I usually play. That may sound lazy I suppose but when I do that I'm putting less time into the character and putting a LOT more time into optimizing that character so that I can get a feel for the game in however brief a time I play. I find that doing this is great for relieving some of the stress I attract by playing a "not very nice" character on my home MUD. I also find that it makes me better a better player by reminding me how to look at different systems and find secret.

More on topic though I think that in a lot of cases people get driven away from RP games by the seemingly impenetrable wall of rules if you're not familiar with the game. On the game that I play we give out a couple of help files when a new player starts, once they get out of creation they're presented with a few more and information on how to access the whole list of them, we go on from their by trying to get them involved with RP in the game so they can learn as they go but I think some people get overwhelmed by the rules and the feeling of trying to learn the "culture" of the game. This I would think is even more of a problem with games that have a lot of their world lore and information available on the website. For example, as much as I've always wanted to try my hand at Armageddon I've never been able to get past the very beginnings of making my character because I get overwhelmed trying to read the history of the region, and of the race, and everything else.

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

I do this too. Sometimes the heavy RP gets fatiguing.
Then I play a hack-n-slash for a bit to relax.

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

Some other things I find annoying about RP games.

The number of players don't support the number of rooms. If the game has 10-15 players but over 15,000 rooms it makes it hard to randomly wander into someone for RP. You could of course hang out at the main RP point (which seems to be a tavern in most games) and wait for others to wander it because they know it is the "hot spot", but then you have idle time when you are just waiting. I'd rather grind than sit and wait, and I hate grinding.

Also, it seems that many RP games don't have coded activities for the player, so if there aren't other players on line you are stuck with nothing to do until someone logs in.

These two things are compounded when the game doesn't give any indicators of the number of players active on line. I can't tell if I can't find someone to RP with because there is no one else on line, or if I'm in city A and everyone else is in City B.

BTW, I only play rp encouraged/enforced muds. I don't play RPIs (at least those that go by the strict definition of RPI) or Mushes, but can understand why some people might like them. They just aren't for me, which is a shame as I've seen some very good settings come out of the RPI/Mush community.

I agree completely with earlier comments that basically said to not try to change an existing game to fit your idea of RP.

Sombalance

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

I believe Ironclaw is around seven years, while Marrach, which was Skotos' flagship game, will be ten years this September.

Skotos, as it did with The Eternal City, aquired Ironclaw and runs it under license as one of its own with support from Sanguine Productions. I don't know how often this license is renewed, or if its a perminate aquirement.

And, I appologize for responding so late to your question. I thought you had wondered what the differences were between the two games, especially as to why so many former Marrach players now call Ironclaw home, and to how such difference would effect on from RPing.

I'll post it anyway when done, but I'll warn all of you; its going to be long.

Darren Brimhall

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

I have a bit of an interesting reason why I hate enforced RP - I have a stunted imagination, you could say. I have difficulty thinking up a basic appearance for my character that's more interesting than an extremely generic appearance, without practically copying others or throwing random bits together.

A background? No way. - It's more than writer's block, it's the writer's Great Wall of China.

Ironically, this makes me appreciate other people's stories more.. I'm a big reader, and I'm one of those rare few who in all games, even MMOs (even WoW) will actually read all the quest text and the story instead of CLICKCLICKCLICKCLICKCLICKing through them like everyone else (including my friends.. it irritates me vastly).


At most, I can end up being a passive character who is just 'there' in the background, which never works in RP enforced MUDs.. Even when interesting world events are happening, my lack of inspiration as to how to act properly prevents me from participating. Too much requires detailed IC interaction with people. It's difficult to make friends with other players when most communication is IC, so I end up playing alone, too.

It kind of irritates me, because a lot of the most detailed and complex MUDs (I love complexity, you could say I'm an 'explorer' type of player but I love to explore mechanics and classes and abilities just as much if not more than the world) are RP enforced.

Iron Realms MUDs come to mind, but the combination of enforced RP, and the fact that you have to throw obnoxious sums of money at the developers to be able to do anything fun.. unless you roleplay.. killed them for me.

And Iron Realms muds are RP-lite compared to some of the more hardcore ones.

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

I created 3 characters on Armageddon.. spent hours fleshing them out, back history, motivations, studying the history files and then getting completely lost in the game with no assistance, noone to ask for help except for a bunch of help files. No character lasted much beyond the first hour of safety. One died in a sandstorm when I accidently went out the city gate, one was just killed outright in the street with no RP or warning, and the other was my own fault, I got arrested for stealing (I think) and got killed.

Details are vague but its been a while so I cant remember specifics beyond avague memories.

I never went back, basically far too much OOC effort for zero IC reward or satisfaction. BUT I have to stress this is just my opinion, I was impressed by the setting and the writing.

I am a great fan of RP, but what can turn me from RP is when there is no outlet out of the RP. I will not play an RP game with no OOC channel (but on the same vein, the channel MUST be tunable for the times I want to be immersed).

I will not play an RP game without an advice channel to ease me into the game mechanics.

However to answer the thread, what turns me off the most however is an RP game is the sterotypes that people use. I cheer whenever I meet a woman character who was not previously a slave, or abused as a child, a rogue who was not a poor orphan urchin on the street who turned to crime. Some of the best RP I have ever met in a character was one without a history of angst and pain. I think there have been websites and threads devoted to this phenominum (how DO you spell that!) which is quite commonplace.

I also loathe games that have settings which specifically give an opportunity for one person to have complete and utter control and domination over another in a slave / master type setting. Yes, this could theoretically lead to a good 'slave becoming a hero' type RP such as spartacus or Gladiator. People who are new to MUD's and fancy this type of character may be caught out as sadly games that have this harsh type of play are normally just breeding ground for MUDsex, rape and murder, and normally with a disclaimer 'Players have no right to complain'. I think this is irresponsible regardless of any warning or disclaimers that may be given.

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

NWA has entire nation that is devoted to harsh roleplay including servitude and slavery. It is very rule controlled to keep players from exploiting it and I have found that for the most part good roleplayers do very well in environment. Some do not, however, and it is those that tend to be disillusioned by the difficulty in such a system.

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

Have to say.. One thing Second Life did was create a really odd situation for RP. There are several combat systems people made, so not every sim is compatible with every character, due to the systems not being compatible. That said, as long as you adjust weapons/theme a bit, to fit the setting, you can move from just about any group of sims that use a specific one to any other. In the DCS system, there is everything from fully user made ideas, to sims dedicated to Naruto, or Bleach. In CCS, there is everything from modern, to ancient, to mixed, to pure combat sims, with arenas, to futuristic, etc. Very few are massive systems, like City of Lost Angels, but... The local rules prevail, which means, if it says RP, you follow the RP rules (which do to how easy it is to teleport, sadly means no inter-sim communications that involve combat situations, though OOC or IC that isn't involve with that is acceptable. Mind, you can't call them, in CoLA rules, even if *in* the same sim, you have to escape the battle, then find them physically... Kind of annoying...). Sad, since a few factions had systems that could run their personal, on-character, com systems through that.

But, this rules may differ in other sims/chains. Sadly, you get the equivalent of the morons around the fountain too. For a while, before, "Don't stand there and do nothing" functions where put into the CCS meters, so you had to be more or less active, you got "gesturbators". People that would use animations/sounds, often the ones all characters get when connecting to SL, to gesture at each other, rather than do anything else. Dropped in to a sim with an arena at one point, while wandering around to see what sims where out there, and had the jarring experience of seeing several people standing around, with wierd sounds coming from them, while apparently none of them where actually doing a damn thing. lol

But, yeah, to be specific on the most recent posts here, there are *strict* rules, in CoLA at least, on how to deal with all the sex and violence that takes place in the dark RP setting. But, this is sex-lite, in many respects. If you want that sort of rediculous stuff, find a Gorian meter, and a Gorian sim. They specialize in that nonsense. lol

One thing you are not likely to *ever* find in a mud, is something like SL, where literally entire cities can be themed, placed in time, or even running different races/classes/etc. Makes for a wierd place.. Especially when you go some place to shop for something like a new animation set, for say, limping, or something, and find yourself confronted with a squad from the SGC, over done Goth people, furries, possibly storm troopers, and who knows what else. Its like being at a damn Comic Con. The difference being, everyone leaves the store, to head over to the nearest "actual" world in which that makes sense to wear. lol

In any case, we end up with people that RP well, people that RP badly, people that can't keep their OOC out of the IC, people babbling things they shouldn't on the wrong channels (though, if someone logged the conversation, and someone usually is, since some RP can be turned in for additional XP, using that info **will** be dealt with), and of course, the people that get swatted out of the sim, or even possibly the system entirely (character ID banned from using the meter), which stand around gesturbating, instead of making a real attempt to RP. Like the environment though. If you want to talk to people about stuff non-related, you turn off the meter, so you are not "ticking", and you don't get into trouble, and you can do that over channels, so you don't have to dump text into the local chat. Solves two problems that way. Muds/MUSHes, etc... would probably nail you for just standing there anyway, or chatting on OOC, even if they didn't "tick" and add XP over time, for being online, while not letting you turn that off, if not "active".

I avoided RP muds like the plague, precisely because I didn't want some ass *demanding* that I participate, even if I didn't feel like it at that moment. Too much effort, no real gain, no real way, beyond making up your own history and story, to customize "anything" about yourself, or the world, etc. I like, now, being able to dress the part, build things that fit what I am doing at the moment, making *tangible*, if temporary, changes to the world, etc. I want to be able to spray paint a glowing faction symbol on a poster someone else put up, which annoyed me, and have people "know" it was done, not just the three people that saw me do it, who then have to mention this to everyone else, otherwise no one has a clue anyone painted anything over the poster. There are major limitations to trying to RP in any environment that can't allow that. And... MUDs, most MUSHes, MMOs, etc. all *fail* at this. No mud is ever going to let me build a weapon satallite, for future use in RP, or code an AI to place in the new Syn Science Division labs, which where *built*, not by some system admin, but someone renting land in a CCS sim, because that just happens to be what they *wanted* to have there. And, I don't have to be "always on", or like a shakespearian playwrite (never mind even vaguely good all the time). But, I still tend to be out of the loop a lot, as someone else mentioned as a problem upthread. Main reason I never did well in the main city. Too much **** going on, not enough time to figure out what the heck it actually was. lol (That, and the last faction I was in always seemed to have a strange ability to schedule meeting at the time and day I was not on, no matter what time, or day that actually was...)

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

I have enough respect for NWA and it sizable player base to expect that it gives a lot of respect and protection to the players, even though I have not played since the pwipe and new nation :)

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

Well, you are heavily into several other MUDs. I would think it would be tough for you to return and be fully involved and immersed (dare I use that term?).

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

Actually, see and study how others write up their character discriptions--then apply how they do it to your own character's discription.

Personally, I prefer the short, simple and sweet apprach that focuses on the different parts without useing too many words.


Darren Brimhall

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

In responce to Shadowfyr, concerning Goreian Themes in Second Life.

I have a friend who plays a slave girl there (the proper name for such escapes me at the moment), and she's indicated that if one become uncofortable with the 'action' occuring the other player will 'back off' from the attempt.

But sadly, as in any game, there are those who wont back off and would demand that the play continue because 'you' consented to being a slave here in the first place--now suffer the concequences.

Fortunately, you can leave the area for another one in Second Life--even cut off all communication with those who are abusive. Even build your own place, as she intends to do.

And there are many 'colorful' ways of retaliation; like your own fully equipted ICBM (only $1000L) or the smaller briefcase nuke ($1200L) that can really ruin the abusive players day--as can having contact with Staff Builders there, as she does, also helps out a great deal.


But what can keep players interested in RP is having the Game in questioned staffed by a dedicated group whos not only are commited to fairness, but are also willing to help players out with their problems while keeping them at arms length to avoid corruption and favorism--two major factors I consider that drive people away from Rping.

Darren Brimhall

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

Hmm. Sound like griefer tools, which would get you banned in CCS. lol

Mind, its almost impossible, even without any actual corruption or favoritism, to avoid some people thinking they see it, sadly. Just had someone as of a few days ago whining about, "Why is someone only three months old being given GM rights?" The fact that you can't know if they are an alt or not, etc., somehow escaped them. And that is just the most likely reason. Anyone that opens their own sim, and pays to use the CCS system, is their own GM too. We even had an entire staff of people, that where long time residents, jump ship over "perceived" problems. Mind, they jumped ship for several different systems, and may not have settled on one yet, and most charge you for them as well, sometimes "more" than CCS did. One of the developers of a free MMO put it this way, more or less, paraphrasing, "You have to be willing to put up with every good thing you do getting almost no credit, and every thing you do for game balance, or which might annoy X% of the players, will be treated as a conspiracy to ruin your game for the players." Even if most understand "why" something changed, there will still be some percentage of people who insist it was bad, overkill, or just whine that they can't take unfair advantage over everyone else any more.

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

Um, what's CCS?


Taking unfair advantage over others is just wrong on so many levels for so many reasons--but hardly surprising, as it reminds me of a place I'm trying to forget and get away from.

The 'Three Month Old GM" is easy enought to explain--that player had friends on Staff who 'bent' the rules for them, instead of simply accepting story input from that player. Based on how strong the stories were, and how well recieved they were by the whole player base, then I could see that player being elevated to GM statis in less than a year (6 to 8 months of play time is fair enought if the player really knows their stuff). But short cutting with no real proof of capability is a Game I don't want to play.

Darren Brimhall

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

CCS is one of several systems in SL that provide combat. CCS (community combat system), is one big one. Other include, but this is not a complete list: DCS, 'RPS', 'RCS', 'TCS', 'RPCS', 'Carnage Island Combat' 'XCS', 'Pure Combat', 'BattleZone', BNWCS, 'Gorean Ladder Meter', URCS and HCS, etc.

And, sure, the accusation being made was that they got in due to "friends". The problem is, there are two **much** easier ways to do it. 1) set up your own sim for CCS, which *requires* that you have people picked out to provide such services. 2) Create a new character, so you GM when on as that character, but not as your normal one. Which is rare, but could happen. And, the point was, the person whining about it didn't have any facts, they just got annoyed that what ever set of sims they where on put someone as a GM that early. But, there are like 300+ sims that run the system, at least, and **most** of those have as much as 2-3 sims per "world". In other words, there may be 300 sims, but there are probably also *at least* 200 independent, non-overlapping, "worlds" defined by them, each unique for the person running them, each excluding everyone else, etc.

This person basically went on a global channel, used for handling non-local, database, or other issues, to whine about someone being made a GM where ever they where, and for all anyone reading the rant knew, that might have been one single, lone, sim, with no connection to any other part of the vast number of CCS worlds.

Basically, it is a bit like if someone showed up at the forums for the *original* SMAUG, to complain that someone else's mud, running on that code base, was, "unfairly making people GMs after only 3 months!".

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

Second Life isn't a mud. How is it relevent to the topic? What does it have to do, even remotely, with "veterans of RP-Intensive MUDs who have turned away from them, and their reasons for doing so?"

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

Aroo?

I think that topic got split off some time ago.

We were discussing how people are turned away from RP in general. There's a certain group of Second Lifers that make it a serious point to RP. I think that's how it applies to this topic. Otherwise, it's my fault. I mentioned the reason that I never (or rarely) RP on MMOs, and I think the same reason could be applied to people who are turned off by RP on muds.

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

So it's your fault. The entire topic is ruined because of you, and because of MMOs. :) :) :) On Topic: I think people get turned off from RP because it's so much easier to be toons and sims, and not submerge themselves into a 3-dimensional persona other than themselves. It's a lot of work, RPing hardcore. It's mentally draining, and can be emotionally draining too. Playing a toon or a sim is - fun. In a non-committal kind of way. No one will get upset if you log out. No one will accuse you of wrecking the scene if you go linkdead. No one will feel slighted if you can't attend their Special Auction Of Awesome Blue Stuff.

Intensive RP can be so draining, that it just seems to make sense that the burnout rate would be higher. Not to mention all the other things people have said, such as "these games are over 10 years old, and most of the players were already in their early 20s when they started. Now they have families and children and full time jobs and lives, and the 8-hour marathon RP sessions simply don't fit in their personal plotlines anymore."

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

Actually, I got turned off to RP because of the attitude that it involves some sort of great effort and suffering, an attitude usually expressed by those who claim to be "creating three-dimensional characters" but who are instead practicing wish-fulfillment and self-insertion of the most blatantly narcissistic kind (as witnessed by their propensity for personal OOC offense and dramatics in response to IC actions). If being creative and having fun is emotionally draining and you think that is what it should be, then frankly there's something wrong with you.

RP died when people started spending more time making character wikis and character DeviantArt pages and character LiveJournals and talking about the precious angst of their characters instead of logging in and playing the damn game by interacting with other people.

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

Heh heh. That's pretty good and sometimes true. Play the game. I agree. I think the draw and the success of NWA is the ability for dramatic indepth roleplay cultivated with a healthy dose of serious adventuring. I mean, today there were two invasions, one in harsh southland that had people roleplaying a lot of angst, fear, and danger partly because of the possibility of permadeath partly because of the nature of the southland. And then another in the north where the huge armies clashed and blood, death, and mayhem reigned supreme.

I describe this because of the differences in styles and actions people take during conflict. It was very awesome to watch and for the players to be a integral part. I think too many times people forget to have fun in the moment with their characters and need to enjoy the opportunities for adventure and the beauty indepth roleplay as each arise.

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

I've played conservative politicians despite being a liberal. I've played religious zealots despite being an atheist. I've played criminals despite being honest to a fault. I've played murderers despite being a pacifist. I don't want to be any of these characters I played. I enjoyed creating a character that fits into the game world in a way which proved interesting in their dealings with other characters and the setting. Was it exhausting? No, though I have played characters who were exhausting due to particular aspects of their personality which meant I was constantly in a very hyper mindset to depict them properly. As an admin I was a bit exhausted a couple times when handling RPTs where I was animating two, three and even four different characters having a conversation with one another, switching between them every couple seconds and endeavoring to transition the RP smoothly between their completely different personalities. The fun came from the results: the role-play of a scene that was effected smoothly and which brought others enjoyment as well.

You're confusing socializing and role-playing. Interacting with other people is socializing. Creating and bringing to life a character is role-playing. Different people take different approaches to designing and fleshing out their character. RP doesn't die as a result of that process; it thrives. What you seem to be referring to is "RP" of the sort you find in console RPGs or MMOs like WoW. That's to RP what a rancid roadkill is to a seven-course gourmet dinner.

Re: What turns people from RP?
 

Nope, don't think he is confusing it. Many people think RP involves interacting with other people.

I read a really good novel on a flight earlier this week. The author did a great job of bringing the character to life. Not once did I feel like I was roleplaying with the the author :) I can't speak for the author, but I'd be very surprised if she thought she was roleplaying.

Anyhow. RP is defined a lot of different ways. There are group of us who favor one style over another or one set of characteristics over another, but I think it safe to safe we all share the common idea of pretending to be something we are not. We seem to be hardest on our fellow roleplayers. If they aren't like us, then they must be doing something wrong. Its wonderful that we all seem to have this passion about something we like to do. Its unfortunate that that passion seems to do more to separate us then to bring us together.

Do the H&S guys argue over silly crap too?