Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

This is a brilliant and touching article collaborated on by a developer and a Threshold player. It reminded me of the main reason I love making games: bringing joy to as many people as possible. I've always considered the most important part of my job to make sure people felt safe in my community. I really hope I've been able to achieve that for most of our players over the years.

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

When you're playing an online roleplaying game, it shouldn't make any difference what gender-preference the player has. He's (or she's) not playing himself in the game. No one else is going to care if he's (or she's) gay or straight, unless he/she makes an issue of it, in an OOC manner.

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

Jazuela, are you trolling, kidding, playing devil's advocate, or are you really this ignorant of what online gaming communities are like for gay gamers?

It makes for a pretty miserable and hostile environment when (as is the case in most online game communities) people engage in gay-bashing and constantly spew anti-gay slurs both IC and OOC.

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

Nice article. It warms my heart to see others out there perpetuating a healthy environment of equality as well. That was one of the things that struck me about both Armageddon and WOTL (sadly hasn't been running in a few years, I believe) was the environment of just equality on the levels of gender and sexual preference. I think part of it with regards to Armageddon (why they enjoy the strife of racism in game but not out of game, and why sexuality is always to be treated with the same tolerance, be it gay or straight or something kinkier) is because of the fact that they've had a very diverse staff over the years (something I'm pleased to see is apparently shared in Threshold to a degree), from a transgendered person (m2f) who went on to become a porn star (Juliette Stray) to a bisexual young woman (myself) and I believe another staffer there was a gay male as well. I have to say, reading that particular article made me want to give your game a try more than any of the other posts I've seen for it. The main thing that seems unappealing is more the race selection than anything else, but even still, after tonight, I may at least log in and make a pc to get a look around.

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

That's a bit like saying it shouldn't make any difference when a player is the husband/wife/partner/friend of the admin because staff favouritism is completely unheard of, right?

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

While I can't speak from experience, I can definitely imagine most muds (being fairly non-policed, anything goes environments) being full of teenagers who use "gay" as the adjective of choice for nearly anything undesirable, and "fag" as the ultimate insult for anybody with any negative quality. Especially years ago when a larger portion of mud players were immature teenagers, and when homosexuality was less accepted across the board.

I do want to submit, however, that the pendulum has swung a little too far, and people are way too sensitive nowadays. For example, if an idiot uses the word "gay" as a synonym for bad, and we all understood what he meant, then that word has that definition (even if it's slang, tasteless, and offensive). We communicated using that word. He said it, we understood it. People get way too uppity nowadays. "OMG!!!! Bigotry!!!" Honestly, it's not against any laws to be wrong and stupid, and I say let stupid people show their colors so the rest of us can make informed decisions regarding those people. If someone wants to hate and condemn homosexuality, he has the same right to do that as a gay person has to be gay, out, and proud about it. It's up to each mud owner to decide on rules and whether to punish or ban people for stating stupid and unpopular, offensive opinions. While it would be politically incorrect in today's climate, a mud owner could legitimately choose to ban homosexuals from his game based on his own moral views.

I'd question any homosexual player, even in today's accepting climate, that logs into a roleplaying game and devotes any significant amount of time to chatting on out of character channels about being homosexual. I don't have a problem with homosexuality, but I've always been bothered by people who use homosexuality as attention-seeking behavior. I don't talk about being straight or Jewish or having a heart murmur or each time I'm battling diarrhea. I'm not saying homosexual mud players should stay in the closet, just be judicious. If I don't know you and I'm not your friend, and the only thing we have in common is that we happen to be logged into the same mud right now, it's strange that I know you're gay. I'd also question anybody who plays a homosexual character in a roleplay-enforced game and doesn't expect at least a little guff for that, in character (provided the mud world where that's taking place is a fairly traditional medieval climate).

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

Agree with Snowtroll. And no, I wasn't trolling. I was expressing my opinion. Do you disagree, and feel that it _should_ matter if the person is gay or straight or bisexual? Do you really feel that it should matter? I think it shouldn't matter. I know that for some ignorant people, it DOES matter - but, I feel pretty strongly that it shouldn't.

Why, Threshold, do you think it should matter? Do gay people roleplay differently than straight people? I've known a few RPers who, for whatever reason, let people know they were gay. The most common response has been "Oh." Do you expect something other than that? I just really think someone's sexuality is a non-issue, and it -should- be treated as such. Whether it is treated as such or not, is another matter entirely.

But if you disagree with me, I'd be interested in hearing why.

Also, where I play, I don't see gay bashing and slurs thrown IC or OOC against gay players.

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

I'm pretty sure slurs and ad hominems are something that is bad to have in a Mud line regardless of who it is directed at or why.

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

It shouldn't matter if a player is gay.

In a strict RP game set in ye olden times, however, it really should matter.

Of course rule of fun applies. The kind of people who enjoy mistreating someone because of their preference, I would not want in a game I'm playing.

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

I do have exsperience in this.

Back in the day when Castle Marrach was playable (unlike now) we had a total of four gay players that I knew of--three of whom I interacted with during play, and I myself had a bisexual charater running.

Back then, noone minded them. In fact, the player of Philo became highly respected both as a player and in character. Yaoi (yes, that was the name he played under) was quite flamboyant, but never overboard or irritating with it. In fact, he was quite controled with his play. Alyse's player was lesbian in real life, and wheelchair bound with a muscle disorder--she played her character as a scheamer and vandal to the hilt.

The fourth one I spent the most time with simply because he was a player facing all kinds of crap in RL, so I became a 'counciler' to him...And for the life of me I cannot remember his character name.

Darren Brimhall

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

Sadly, it doesn't matter if the player is Gay.

You'll find players who'll get their jollies off of mistreating someone just because they can.


Darren Brimhall

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

Jazuela:

I believe that Threshold (and I'm trying not to speak for him, but rather to articulate what I believe him to have been saying) was stating that it's kind of head-in-the-sand to believe this: No one else is going to care if he's (or she's) gay or straight, unless he/she makes an issue of it, in an OOC manner.

A lot of players on a lot of online games speak and react in an intolerant manner. It's just true. The sentiment of "should not matter" is the correct statement, which you said, but the last part unfortunately did not agree with the first. If you've been lucky enough to find a community where those ideals have indeed taken hold, then that is a beautiful thing, but it is not typical.

This article was written by players who've played many different online games and have experiences to back up the statements made, having lived it I can tell you first-hand that what I say above is true.

SnowTroll:
I will never accept someone casually throwing around the gaycist word "gay" to mean something bad. If you want to see how awkward your post is, replace every instance of gay or homosexual with "black person" and the word "gay" you have in quotes...well, you know what word to use. You do agree that it's horrible, so this isn't a personal attack toward you, but rather an attempt to show how completely offensive it is to, instead of trying to correct a situation, just let it go "cos it shows they're dum." Nobody really needs more evidence of that. :)

Also, I have no idea who talks about BEING straight or gay. That's a really short discussion right there. It's a whole sentence after which you are pretty much forced to move on since there's really nothing more to be said.

To conclude, I want to say that the reason I was happy that Threshold posted this link for you all to read was because I personally feel that it was easier to find acceptance amongst MUDders than any other type of online gaming and we all seem to agree that safe gaming is important and since people need an escape from whatever's going on in their lives, that finding this haven in MUDs really speaks to the platform as a community.

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

Jazuela:

Not all games are like Armageddon (which BTW is my home MUD as well), where you can play with someone daily for a RL year or more, without ever learning the first thing about their OOC lives. Some people like to play MUDs where they can get to know their fellow players and chat about their lives. And sometimes when you chat about your life, people may become aware what your sexual orientation is. Just like straight players might mention that their spouse is bugging them to get off the game, so might a gay player. However, crypto-bigots think that whenever gay people are talking about their personal lives in a way that reveals they are gay (just like a straight person might say things that reveals they are straight), they are "seeking attention." Bull****. That's because crypto-bigots are uncomfortable with the fact gay people exist and latch on to any indication that a gay person is gay, and imagine they are "seeking attention" or "flaunting" their sexuality. If you think this, I'm sorry, but it's a sign that you have a nagging problem with gay people and just don't like the fact that they exist and you might have to be aware that they exist.

SnowTroll:

Regarding your (nonsensical) rant about word meanings: I appreciate your linguistic descriptivist stance, but you're doing it all wrong. Sure, "gay" has a demeaning, offensive, pejorative meaning. Okay, that's one of the meanings. When someone uses that word with that demeaning, offensive, pejorative meaning, they are being a bigoted asshole. It doesn't matter if there are laws against it (WTF?), other people have every right to correctly assess that the person using that kind of language is a bigoted asshole and treat them like one accordingly, whether that be banning from the game, shunning them, calling them a bigoted asshole, or what-have-you.

It's also hilariously obvious whenever someone has to include a sentence like "I have no problem with homosexuals" or "I'm not racist but..." that they do, in fact, have a problem with homosexuals, or are racist. If you are defending the use of the term "gay" as an insult: congratulations, you have a problem with gay people, as the rest of your post makes abundantly clear! Your post amounts to "I have no problem with gay people as long as they stay in the closet where they belong." That's what the whole "attention" / "it shouldn't make any difference (because they should STFU about it)" stuff is really getting at.


Guess what guys, gay people are here. They're out of the closet. Most of them have been told for their whole lives to be ashamed of who they are and to hide or suppress it, just like you "well-meaning" chodes are attempting to tell them again, right now! Well they shouldn't have to be ashamed. They shouldn't have to bite their tongue to avoid exposing your delicate senses to the fact that gay people exist. They should have every right to talk about their lives, even talk specifically about being gay, or *gasp* how homophobia is a real and ****ty problem, one which taints this very thread with its unmistakable stink.

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

Jazuela: I don't know what you are going on about.

Did you read the article?

The topic is how most online gaming communities are openly hostile, hateful, and unpleasant for gay gamers. There is so much open gay bashing, common use of gay-hating slurs, etc. that it is extremely unpleasant for gay gamers to try and play the game.

Fortunately, there are some games that aren't like that. There are some online communities that don't tolerate that sort of thing. It may even be possible that text MUDs have a higher percentage of such communities. If so, that's something for our community to be excited about.

Aside from that, I can't tell what you are going on about. It sounds like you didn't read the article and missed the point entirely.

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

I'm with Jazuela and ShowTroll on this. It is always puzzled me, why would people go on about their private life to random strangers, who happened to play the same game, let alone about their sexual preferences. Why would I need to know that you prefer men, women, goats or vacuum cleaners? Who cares? If you are so intent to make your private life public, why won't you tell everybody your credit card number instead? At least in latter case it may have any use for somebody outside of questionable reward of being able to call somebody a homophobic slur.

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

One:
Because they are people with lives. They live in their lives. It is exactly the same as someone saying "My mom's making me go and bring in the groceries."
My kid's crying got to go.
My husband just walked in, hide the mudsex!
Making causal statements about the life you lead isn't "going on about" things. It's referencing the life you live in. That seem like a fairly basic human right.

Now imagine that instead of just saying, "Got to go, my husband is home," you had to monitor yourself, and watch and make sure that nothing you said was revealing. That's ridiculous. People should be able to be casually self-referential.

That's why.

I look forward to a day where we don't celebrate gay pride, or gay marriage or gay acceptance, because it's the normal order of the day and to do so would be as odd as a straight pride day. I think it's wonderful that Threshold is a place where the GLTG community can be comfortable. I think it sucks that so many other places are not that it's noteworthy.

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

No, I didn't read the article. I should clarify. I read the first two paragraphs of it. When I saw that this was just another cloyingly sweet glurge-fest to glorify the glories of Threshold, I closed the page. I don't play Threshold, I don't want to play Threshold, I don't care if Threshold players have found the world outside their game to be filled with mean stinky nasty bullies and theirs is a haven of happy happy joy joy.

I responded based on the topic itself, as posed in the thread title: Communities tolerant and accepting of gay gamers.

If you intended for everyone to read another webvertisement about how wonderful Threshold players are and how mean and nasty all the MMOs out there are, you failed.

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

I'm quite glad Threshold and other muds (In Armageddon it's a non-issue from my experience) in the community are accepting and not hostile. I am disappointed that those muds have to be singled out because of others that are not so accepting, however- optimally no one would be turned off from a game they'd otherwise enjoy because of OOC hostility.

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

There is an entire landscape of people that lie between the 10% that are super-supportive, ultra-pro-gay, march in a parade in solidarity, love all humanity, homosexual rights supporters, and the 10% that are psychotic gay-bashing bigots (10 percent chosen as an unsupported exemplary figure). Most people don't care about homosexuality, or about bigotry all that much. They'll tell you it's okay for gay people to be gay, and for bigots to be idiotic bigots, and they just don't care. I'm darn sick of people telling me that if you're not an ultra-devoted gay rights advocate and actually expect homosexuals to at least recognize that even if it's totally cool and acceptable that they're living differently than most people, they're still living differently than most people, that makes you a bigot.

Bigots (real bigots, not normal people like those described in the paragraph above) have just as much of a right to be out and proud about their bigotry as homosexuals have to be gay and proud of it. Who are you to tell a bigot that who he is, how he behaves, and what he thinks is morally wrong, disgusting, and that he needs to keep his mouth shut and stay in the closet about his thoughts and feelings? It's proud and heroic to tell that to a bigot, but disgusting to tell that to a homosexual person? I don't agree with the viewpoint of a homophobic bigot, but I strongly believe he has a right to his viewpoint and a right to express it, just like I strongly believe in homosexuals having that same right. What's funny is that if a bunch of big gay men from the nearest muscle beach took a few baseball bats and clubbed the crap out of some KKK members tonight, a pretty substantial segment of society would say that those dirty bigots just got what they deserved. The pendulum has swung waaaay too far.

All the same, you won't find me incidentally commenting on a public channel on a mud: "Boy, I sure miss bread. You know, due to the Jewish holiday of Passover I've been celebrating where I eat mahtza and can't eat bread for eight whole days. I'm not randomly bringing up this topic to draw attention to the fact that I'm Jewish. I'm just talking about what's going on in my life, generally, which happens to indirectly indicate that I'm Jewish, which is totally no different than the rest of you wishing each other Merry Christmas every December, so if any of you mention anything that indicates that being Jewish is a thing that makes me different than being the majority religion, you're a dirty anti-semite and should be banned from this mud." You're on the freaking internet. The second you broadcast a piece of information, it's out there for comment. If you're okay letting people know you're gay, directly or incidentally, great! But frankly, all of us, not just homosexuals, should be censoring anything we don't want people to know. It's the internet. Do you really want everybody logged into the same mud as you knowing any detail about your life?

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

It a very nice article... and something that all game devs, admins and mods should be aware of. I played a game where the admin started conversations on illegal matters, was more lenient than mods on racism, sexism, religious discrimination and sexual prefrence discrimination, which just ended up with us having the scum of the internet in the game. Even though i am of no ethnic minority, it does upset me seeing an admin condone and take part in activities he should ban for.

This article should definitely be used for anti-discrimination in gaming awareness. its touching.

And to snowtrolls earlier post, the game i was reffering too, like my highschool peers, use "black", "jew" and "gay" as a way of showing their annoyance, which really, really annoys me, as not many have been banned for such actions, and those who were banned, for in my own opinion, far lesser reasons.

Gay people are gay, just because they are. You and I could quite easily been born with that preference. You might as well discriminate tall people, short people, people with a certain hair colour, accent or nationality.

You are what you are, and thats what make a person unique and amazing.

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

Read the article please. You clearly didn't.

While I appreciate the honesty, you really should read the whole article before commenting in a thread about an article. That's basic.

I'm sorry you have such dislike for despite the fact you've never played it. Maybe if you played it, it would bring so much happiness and joy to your life you'd be a more pleasant person on the forums.

Just a possibility!

kiss kiss

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

The article, itself, is far less interesting than the issue as a whole. The article is actually kind of vague and generic. It doesn't outright say that either of the authors, or anybody, was specifically harassed or subjected to anything serious on a mud, for being gay. It makes it sound like the worst they faced was an uncomfortable environment, where ignorant teenagers tossed around gay slurs as general insults, not even directed at them or any individual gay person specifically, but they were possibly afraid that if these loud idiots knew they were gay, they'd be made fun of. And we all know that being made fun of on the internet is pretty hard to deal with.

I'm not exactly finding myself moved or passionate by the previously unknown fact that there are idiots on the internet who make other people uncomfortable. I'm not thinking to myself, "Holy crap! We need to do something as a community to be more tolerant and accepting!"

Jazuela's on target that this article was about 65% Threshold publicity, and 35% content. I like Threshold and like to see you going out of your way to creatively market the game to all circles, all over the internet, so I'm not complaining about the fact. But let's be honest. Gay gamers in 2013 is simply not an issue. I've played hundreds of muds. Seriously. Hundreds. Nothing remotely rising to the level of an issue regarding any homosexual player ever occurred in my sight.

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

Snowtroll: Have you ever played League of Legends or anything on XBOX Live?

About every 5 seconds you'll hear someone get called a "stupid cocksucking fag" or "worthless jew fag" or some far worse variation thereof.

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

Not my scene, so no. Yes, that's technically offensive. But nobody in that example is calling a gay person a stupid cocksucking fag, because he's gay. That's just stupid kids using "fag" as a generic insult. When I was 13 or so, I liked to show off all the swear words I knew because I thought it made me look cool. In more modern times, calling people gay is what the stupid kids do. Do proud homosexual gamers really run crying from MMOs because of teenagers and idiots? Who aren't even making fun of them, specifically?

"OMG! These people call everyone gay and fag! They're not pro-gay! I can't possibly be myself around them because they'll make fun of me! Boo hoo!" It's the freaking internet! There are idiots on the internet. Suck it up.

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

I'm Jewish, and I'm more offended by your use of the vulgarity on a public forum that doesn't have a content warning, than I am by being called a Jew. What's even MORE offensive, however, is that you would think that I, as an adult, would be moved to try and DO something about your childish antics. Really - mature adults know better than to be bothered by a bunch of immature testosterone-happy kidlets espouting ignorant statements on the internet.

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

Because context doesn't matter at all, right? Absolutely ridiculous. Now it is clear that you are without question, trolling.

The above paragraph doesn't even make sense. It has absolutely nothing to do with this thread or anything I've posted.



Now shuffle off back under your bridge, please.

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

Yeah, they suck it up by going elsewhere. That's the whole point. Why be a part of a gaming community with that kind of loathsome behavior. It is unpleasant and it isn't enjoyable.

And simple slurs being spewed is just the tiny tip of the iceberg. Other posters here have explained other facets of it, like not being able to participate in the OOC side of a community, or being ridiculed when you do, or having to hide facts about yourself because if you don't you'll get mocked or abused.

If I was playing an online RPG and common discourse of the community was that white men were the source of all evil in the world, enslaved people, abused/raped women commonly, were all racists and sexists, etc., I'd leave. It wouldn't matter that I'm not physically or emotionally harmed by their language and don't agree with any of it. Its just not enjoyable to deal with that crap constantly, and I wouldn't want to feel like I had to pretend not to be a white male. I'd rather just leave and go somewhere else where I didn't hide who or what I was to avoid abuse.

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

Didn't read this whole thread or article but all I can say is that I know we have a few gay players on MUD, and they've never had any issues to my knowledge (I've known one of them for 13 years). We have extremely strict rules about sexual harassment including homophobic slurs. It's worked well for us.

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

Glad to hear it.

It really is primarily an act of will on the part of the administration.

You can nip it in the bud pretty easily if you take a firm stance and hold to it consistently.

Its nice that there are many MUDs out there who do this. It is one of the many ways that MUD communities tend to be superior to graphical MMO communities.

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

I've never been that attached to the OOC game involved in muds. I log in, I play the game, I'm not looking for real life friends or contacts, I'm not looking for a community that likes and accepts me, and I log out and go back to my real life. All the same, I have pretty low expectations of humanity in general.

When someone says,"Online multiplayer game," here's the sample MMO converation snippet I'm imagining:
_______________________________

B1gK0K: i raped u good ur such a fag

D1k101: hahalol only cuz ur so cheep quit using gay tricks n00b

Flowerking: Excuse me, but I'm gay and it's really offensive to use homophobic slurs like that. Please stop or I'm going to report you to the administration.

B1gK0k: haha stfu queer!

D1k101: omglol! r u srsly gay?!?! FAAAAAAGG!!!

Princezz914: hey stop! its not c00l to be rasist ppl are born gay!!!

B1gk0k: i fukked ur mom! want to cyber Princezz?

D1k101: lolololol!!!!

Flowerking: That's it! I'm never playing this game again!

B1gk0k: by fag!!!
_______________________________

Admittedly, that conversation would drive me away from a game, too, but my departure would have nothing to do with homosexuals feeling unwelcome.

Anyway, when someone says, "internet game," that's what I picture as the common user group. That's all over the internet, and if that's making grown gay men cry because they can't fit in with that select group of internet users, they should aim a little higher.

I'd parse this whole thing as: Threshold, a place for grown ups where you won't see idiocy like that. Rather than Threshold: Where homosexuals are accepted.

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

I'd agree with that statement 100%, and that's exactly how I'd like people to perceive Threshold.

A place for grown ups where you won't see idiocy like your excellent example. :)

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

[21:18:24] [Grort @ 4060]: i would like to go to japan when i done or egypt
[21:18:27] [HeadLess @ 4060]: Hong kong :O
[21:18:32] [HeadLess @ 4060]: wtf
[21:18:37] [JoeButler @ 4060]: your home country is?
[21:18:58] [AragorIII @ 4060]: Hong Kong is absolutely immense compared to UK
[21:19:07] [HeadLess @ 4060]: why ya think so?
[21:19:08] [Grort @ 4060]: probably
[21:19:12] [HeadLess @ 4060]: you like those gayhats?:p
[21:19:23] [HeadLess @ 4060]: ah soz, those are vietnam's ;p
[21:19:42] [JoeButler @ 4060]: vietnam is beutiful i want to go there
[21:20:06] [JoeButler @ 4060]: and whos the 'gayhats'?
[21:20:22] [HeadLess @ 4060]: ?
[21:20:25] [JoeButler @ 4060]: home country headless?
[21:20:34] [JoeButler @ 4060]: your earlier remark^
[21:20:35] [HeadLess @ 4060]: not who is but what is
[21:20:43] [AragorIII @ 4060]: my sister visited vietnam...said there were markets selling all this old american war atuff and dead soldiesrs kit...
[21:20:45] [HeadLess @ 4060]: you don't know those hats they'r wearing?
[21:21:24] [JoeButler @ 4060]: whose hats?
[21:21:48] [HeadLess @ 4060]: vietnamese

snippet of conversation i had when i logged onto a game, on public channel. Real character names, and this stuff happened every day for about 2 months. This is from a community the size of Aardwolf.

[21:35:14] [Darkness4life @ 4060]: stop with that
[21:35:23] [HeadLess @ 4060]: where are you from D4l?
[21:35:27] [morganalefey @ 4060]: if i want to say that i say s*** or f*** is that ok?
[21:35:32] [Grort @ 4060]: i'm starting to think that the invance isn't worth the 'celebrations' afterwarsd AKA arguments
[21:35:38] [Darkness4life @ 4060]: i am from connecticut
[21:35:46] [HeadLess @ 4060]: and how old ar u?
[21:35:55] [Darkness4life @ 4060]: 21
[21:36:07] [morganalefey @ 4060]: where is that ? what state is that?
[21:36:09] [HeadLess @ 4060]: you are Jewish? Christianist?
[21:36:11] [JoeButler @ 4060]: Headless your age now
[21:36:13] [HeadLess @ 4060]: islamist?
[21:36:21] [Grort @ 4060]: *Christian
[21:36:23] [Darkness4life @ 4060]: not answering any more questions

Another example, but he isnt the only person with these issues. I'm white but have a black character in the game, and told to do a newbie bidding and 'dance for me black man'. He wasnt banned, and prior person was banned only for posting sexual material on channels.

[19:30:37] [oohlala @ 6]: you cant stop me faggots
[19:30:42] [oohlala @ 6]: learner couldnt

And on this occasion, he was banned...for creating an alt just to spam...

You get these issues in all MMOs. Basically, i think they should make people build in the CEOP button into all MMOs, and give CEOP jurisdiction in MMOs/MUDs.

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

I'm unable to even follow these. Though I should point out that he etymology of the word 'gay' makes it close to the word 'flamboyant' but was also on occasion to mean the same thing as 'sissy girl man' or 'emasculate'. And was originally used as an insult towards the gay community before the gay community decided for some unknown reason to have a 'word claiming' campaign where they decided to claim the word 'gay'. Not an uncommon occurrence. It only partially worked. Only relatively recently has the word 'gay' started to lose its real meaning and became a term for a general insult. Though its still often used to mean 'emasculate', especially by comedians, especially, especially by gay comedians.

E.G. "You should have seen these dude's tie! Man, here I thought I was gay!" *Rimshot*

So are you absolutely sure these people on these games of yours aren't just gay comedians?

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

You have got to be joking that the level of privacy inherent with letting someone know the gender of your significant other is the same as divulging credit card information.

Also, it's not a true statement that you're playing with random strangers. And to say that one should just shut up and not talk about themselves in a social environment is by definition telling someone to stay closeted to protect themselves. This is not a healthy stance to promote. People should feel safe in communicating with others in a social settings. The statement "who cares?" is definitely a proper attitude, because it shouldn't be a point, but the fact is that it is and that's what needs to be addressed. If you prefer to game with other people and just treat them as if they're just a really good AI NPCs and not interact with them as actual people, that's cool, and perfectly within your rights, but people are social animals and when interacting with other people they like to feel that their "what-should-be-non-issues" are treated as such. And in fact, a lot of the problems are not necessarily someone being specifically targeted and attacked, it's the general atmosphere and the comments that someone who is gay endures by virtue of chatter surrounding them which is unacceptable but often goes ignored by those with the ability to correct it.

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

Ok, *bighugs* that made me laugh. You get 50 Internet Points.

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

I think you make two excellent points. I am also glad you made them. I gave up on page one. I am not sure if people just really love to debate, or if there's some secret prize I never got because I never won the internet, or if the people who are arguing against treating others with dignity and kindness are just failing as human beings, but I did give up. I'm glad you didn't.

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

Actually debating is fun and although I don't share this opinion, I think I will point out that you just made a strawman. They aren't arguing against treating people with dignity and respect, they are saying it is petty to get upset over a lack of dignity and respect and arrogant to assume this is specifically a homosexual issue. And I think I saw some subtext suggesting that Threshhold is trying to create a non-existant issue to make itself look better.

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

Ok.

Debating is not fun for me. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough for you. I think I was clear enough for anyone reading with the aim of understanding as opposed to the aim of ... what ever your post was aiming at.

Telling people to suck it up if people are being hurtful whether it's a race issue a gender issue a sexual identification issue or any kind of issue is unkind where I come from.

And the constant use of the word strawman is meaningless, knee-jerk and annoying.


What does your post even mean?

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

The point of my post was to correct the misrepresentation of your opponent's argument so the debate might reach a satisfactory conclusion rather then a white peace.

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

Then we have a strong philosophical difference, because I don't think the schism, between treating someone badly and allowing other people to treat someone badly, is particularly vast.

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

And finally, what would have happened if they didn't like the article and just went on with their day rather than going out of their way to be unpleasant?

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

Apparently the internet would break if that ever happened.

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

Well then there would be no reason to have a thread on it. And its never a bad thing to debate varying opinions, thats how you learn and become smarter.

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

Butler’s above logs illustrate why this whole thing is just dumb.

So the “big issue” in this first example is that one user, “HeadLess,” who can barely string six words together in a coherent sentence, used the word “gayhats” in reference to people from Hong Kong, which, in addition to being offensive to people from Hong Kong, is also offensive to gay people since gayhats is clearly a term meant as something negative that includes “gay” as the first part, implying that being gay is negative, too.

HeadLess wasn’t harassing gay people or even talking about any gay people, individually or as a group. He just used a term that, I guess, makes the environment less comfortable for homosexuals? Because if this barely literate guy will use the term gayhats in reference to people from Hong Kong, then it can be safely assumed that he’d definitely make fun of you for being gay if he knew. And probably everyone else on the server would join in, too, because any server where a barely literate idiot doesn’t get banned for a single use of the term gayhats in reference to Hong Kong is clearly a very anti-gay environment.

We should apparently all be moved to action knowing that it’s difficult for homosexuals to fit in among barely verbal cretins like HeadLess.

The “big issue” here is that by asking “Darkness4life” a series of personal questions, one of which asked whether Darkness was Jewish, Christianist [sic], or islamist [sic], HeadLess clearly implied that at least one of those answers would be an incorrect, negative answer, responsive to which HeadLess would most likely make fun of poor Darkness4life. And probably everyone else on the server would join in, too, because any server where a barely literate idiot doesn’t get banned for asking personal questions about religion is a free-for-all environment full of bigotry.

HeadLess wasn’t harassing gay or religious people in this instance. He just bothered the hell out of another user with personal questions in a way that, I guess, makes the environment less comfortable for everyone?

We should, again, all be moved to action knowing that it’s difficult for religious individuals to fit in among barely verbal cretins like HeadLess.

The “big issue” here is that one particular user, “oohlala,” used the term “faggots” as a generic insult directed toward everybody logged in, when everyone knows that faggot is primarily a derogatory term used against homosexuals, thereby offending gay people even more than non-gay people to which the insult was directed. Oohlala wasn’t harassing gay people or even talking about any gay people, individually or as a group. He just exhibited behavior common among just about every teenager in America, all across the internet.

But, I guess, this use of the term faggot makes the environment less comfortable for homosexuals? Because if this barely literate guy will use the term faggots as a generic insult, he’d definitely make fun of specific gay people if he knew they were gay. And probably everyone else on the server would join in, too, because any server where a barely literate idiot doesn’t get immediately banned for use of the word faggot is clearly an extremely anti-gay environment.

I’m stupefied that homosexuals want to fit in among barely literate idiots. I’m a smart guy with a lot of degrees, and what I’d like to think is above-average comprehension and use of the English language. I can barely follow those conversations. This is the big issue? That people who can barely connect adjacent words in a manner that communicates a thought use language that indicates they may not approve of homosexuality?

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

Um, that goes on all the time Butler. The only difference is that blonds, short people, and tall people don't have an activist group to defend them :p.

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

I'll answer your question with a question.

Were you being deliberately dishonest in the way you edited your quote of me?

What I actually wrote was:

There's a huge difference between calling someone just plain ignorant and asking if someone is ignorant of some specific thing. One is an insult and the other is a legitimate, non-insulting way to ask if someone is unaware/doesn't know about something.

I should be able to safely assume a higher than average level of reading comprehension and nuanced language understanding on a forum devoted to text games.

I invite you to read the thread with an open mind if you want to see posts that are "uncalled for". HINT: They aren't made by me.

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

Just wanted to say - if homophobia is thematic in the mud it's being portrayed on ICly, then kudos to those players. It isn't easy to be an anti-social jerkass who you OOCLY think is wrong in their opinions. But that's what roleplaying is. It's your character being a homophobe, not you.

If it's not thematic to be homophobic ICLY when someone clearly is being homophobic, deal with it ICLY.

And it's always been my opinion that OOC communication is bad. I mostly avoid games with OOC channels like the plague. People are homephobic. People are racist/sexist whatever. It's their opinion, and opinions are subjective and can't be right or wrong. Even if someone isn't trying to be all up in your face with their controversial opinions, it does leak through in OOC conversations. And when people get upset on an OOC level, it tends to leak through ICLY.

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

That in no way changes his point. You are still dismissing your opponent with a series of ad hominems designed to attack his character rather then address his argument.

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

You guys are really discussing trivial semantics at this point.

Making a big stink about how use of the phrase "ignorant" of X, rather than a different word or phrase such as "unaware of the fact," has a derogatory connotation isn't all that different than making a big stink about people using the word "gay" in place of other adjectives. And it's discussing the discussion rather than the merits or content thereof.

Honestly, this recent stink isn't about the stink anyway. The content is about 25% discussion, 75% anti-Threshold propaganda. "OMG! I will never waste time on Threshold, which must be a seriously crappy game, because the guy who runs it said something I didn't like on an online forum! Other people should do the same to make their discontent known! Down with Threshold! Because I don't like the game! Rawr!" I guess that's a fair response to the initial post, since the whole "Threshold is a great and accepting place for homosexuals" article has about a 30:70 ratio of content versus Threshold advertisement. But come off it and add something to the discussion. At least aim for a 50-50 content to agenda ratio.

Re: Finding a Place to Call Home: Communities Tolerant & Accepting of Gay Gamers
 

It changes it completely. Read for content.

Its like the difference between:

I helped my Uncle Jack off his horse

and

I helped my Uncle jack off his horse.

In written language, a few words or some capitalization can make a pretty huge difference.