What does "Free" Mean?
 

EDIT: This originally began as an ad for Nodeka and grew into a discussion on the definition of "free" in games. With the blessing of the original poster I have moved it into its own thread -- Lasher.

Re: Nodeka
 

Ah, nice. I think that's a good move from a (player vs player) competitive perspective, as I was always rather wary after reading reviews like this one:

I can't seem to activate the extended map though...how can I view it?

Re: Nodeka
 

I'm at a loss here. I've never played Nodeka or read a review for it. Looking at the website and the list of features in the OP, this looks like a very cool mud, one I would definitely try. Reading the review that KaVir posted the link to, this looks like a mud I will never try (not just because of the donations mentioned -- the review seems to disparage the areas and quest system as well). Since this is a promotional thread anyway, maybe the OP can respond to the review?

Re: Nodeka
 

You do not need the extended map to play nodeka it is playable and enjoyable with the normal map. The extended map is simply a conveinance for your donation.

The extended map is a feature that requires a 2 dollar donation for a month or a 20 dollar donation for the year.
Basically the extended map is a much larger version of the normal map.

Re: Nodeka
 

Nodeka used to require donations for remorting- it no longer does.
Yes you get roleplaying points for donating, there is talk of removing that- however nodeka is not a RPG you do not roleplay. Roleplay was tried and removed- however something had to be done with the points that were awarded for people who did roleplay at the time. Currently roleplay points come from questing and player killing.

Practices can be bought with platinum( the games currency ) or sun stones( reward for donation also awarded via Player Killing/questing ), statistics can be increased via sun stones as well- which can come from questing/player killing as well.

We currently have been having lots of 'mud events' and many more are planned for the future.

As far as area's go I can't argue there are some boring and honestly lame areas. Nodeka however generally has thought out areas that have a story with them.

Come check us out, you will get hooked and love it. Nodeka is always growing, sometimes the changes come in small steps, sometimes in huge steps.

I am more than happy to answer and posts left here. And yes this thread was to bring attention to nodeka, but not in the "omg we so rock come playz" more of the "Hey everyone that always wanted to play nodeka but refused due to donations, guess what- come play!"

As a PS: we have been donation free to remort for quite a few months now, now that it has been a while I felt it was time to share on a global scale.

Re: Nodeka
 

Here is a game review,

Search here for many others game and personal:

Re: Nodeka
 

Ah, then I misunderstood your original post - by "100% free to play" I assumed you meant that 100% of the content could be earned or accessed for free (i.e., without making purchases). Otherwise you could have just argued in the past that the mud was "100% free to play" on the basis that you don't need to remort in order to play and enjoy the game.

As someone who is interested in competitive play, being able to compete on equal footing with paying customers is important to me - but far more important still is that I at least have the potential to earn everything that a paying customer can buy. That's what I thought you were suggesting, and thus my reply.

Once again I really wish we could all come up with some standard terminology for the different payment methods. If pay-for-perks with payment required to unlock certain features is "100% free to play", what do we call pay-for-perks where everything can also be unlocked through normal play? What about muds where there is a registration cost, but where you can still literally play for free? Or muds where there are no costs at all? No wonder the newbies get confused.

Re: Nodeka
 

Everything except for the extended map can be unlocked via normal game play.

In fact you can function and player kill without the map at all and be on the competitive edge- but that would require some dedication and not all are up to the task. In the end it boils down to a larger overhead map as a reward for those that help to keep Nodeka running.

Re: Nodeka
 

If I understand you correctly, this is a PK mud where you are
at a PK disadvantage if you do not donate money. Is this correct?

If so, it seems disingenuous to suggest it is free.

-Crat

Re: Nodeka
 

Well there are all sorts of things that give advantages, aren't there?

Some people have a ridiculous amount of free time.

Some have a multi-game clan they use to slaughter in PvP wherever they go.

I know very little about Nodeka, but it doesn't sound like this enhanced map (or the other perks) are grossly overpowering. Most of them sound like they are things you can get in game by other means.

So I don't think it is disingenuous to call it free. But again, let me give the disclaimer that I have never played Nodeka and cannot say this for certain. I am speaking only of my general impression.

Re: Nodeka
 

it looks like donate-mandatory game turned into a donate-accepted or donate-enforced. :p

whichever, good luck with the changes :)

Re: Nodeka
 

That is incorrect. Donating doesn't give you a PK advantage.

Re: Nodeka
 

I misunderstood then. My bad.

-Crat

Re: Nodeka
 

The only way donating really allows you to "get ahead" is when you donate on others for ingame payment. Which can happen on any game- The ingame rich selling ingame currency/items for real life goods( in this case a monetary donation )

Its essentially a get rich quick scheme- and it takes quite a bit of donating on others if you want to speed to the top( not to mention time.)

Im more than happy to discuss with anyone if they have questions, comments, and/or concerns.

Re: Nodeka
 

Just observation.

I believe most players tend to think that any advantage whether it be through registration, donation, or extra perks for donating time to create, etc, is always viewed as "unfair". The trouble is, Games aren't meant to ever be perfectly fair and can't be.

It is impossible to make any game online completely fair. To do this you would have to restrict online "time" on the game to each player to an hour setting like 2 hours per day (as stated by Threshold, some people have a rediculous amount of time to play), you would have to limit typing speed by all players to say 40wpm, else it would be unfair because players type faster, you would have to limit vocabulary, because those with a high educational level have an unfair advantage in an rp environment, or mathematical advantage in a meta-gaming environment.

In short, nothing is fair so the best we can do is make it fun.

Re: Nodeka
 

a mud that offers no in-game benefits(in-game items, house, skill boost, unlocking extra areas) via donations is a COMPLETELY FREE mud and gives the most fair-gaming experience.it's that plain, simple..

if a player(all players) is doing all his/her deeds ICly, doesn't put any real life scent into his/her character and if s/he has the right to have more free time in real life and that's quite fair and nothing to do with the game itself.

Re: Nodeka
 

What you are saying is simply an "opinion" just like mine was. Free can mean any number of things. Completely Free means that you don't pay to play. That can mean, completely free for 30 days, completely free for a year, completely free for forever. Just because a game is completely free, doesn't mean it cannot have benefits for those who support it.

This is an age old argument I've seen on many forums including many Mud's personal forums. Your game is Free if one can play it without paying upfront. Otherwise it is pay to play. Neither represents a better environment, however, I will say from past experience (over 10 years of playing and progging a variety of games), if a person never pays for what they play, they take zero ownership in it and many times end up having a lack of respect and responsibility both for the game and their character.

While NW is free, I admire many of the games that do have registrations and have a good solid players who support them. I am one who supports pay to play or registry games and will continue to do so and give credit where credit is do.

Newworlds RPG

Re: Nodeka
 

I think what most posters on this Forum react negatively to is not the pay-for-perks per se, but the fact that the Muds that use them like to advertise themselves as 'free to play', 'totally free', and in Nodeka's case '100 % free to play'. If a pay-for-perks game is '100 % free to play', how do you describe the Muds where you cannot donate, or in any other way pay for in-game benefits? No wonder new players get confused.

This has been an old issue for years, and still tends to fester many discussions, since it was never resolved. The general tactic from the commercial games seems to be to claim that the opponents are against all commercial Muds, which is not the case. What people are against is misleading information to potential new players about the nature of a game.

During the old regime, there was a request from a pretty large number of members, about adapting the search engine, so that it would be possible to search for truly 100 % free games, versus the many variations of pay-to-play and pay-for-perks that exist. The request was turned down back then, but since there is a new management now, here is a new request.

Could we please have such a search engine implemented?

If the intent really is to make the site more attractive to players and not just to Mud Admin, this would be a very valid improvement. A service like this would certainly be appreciated by those players who get confused by the present conditions. On top of that, it would also once and for all get rid of an old issue, that tends to pop up from time to time.

Re: Nodeka
 

If you want to get picky there is no 100% free to play game out there, there is always a cost. My opinion is that if you do not have to pay in order to access all of the games features or do not have to pay for subscription then it is free.

Paying for perks is exactly that- paying for perks.

I like your idea of being able to search for 'free muds' though, however as it boils down to someones opinion who is to say its truly free? I pay for the interweb, so the game isn't really free by proxy.

Just my opinion and everyones will differ.

Re: Nodeka
 

Donation accepted
Donation not accepted

^
There is a possible way of describing the muds.

Re: Nodeka
 

Good suggestion.

So can we please have a search engine that singles out those options?

And maybe another one for those pay-for-perks that are not labelled as 'donations'?

I am not sure about the logic of that conclusion. We all pay for the internet and our servers. Some of us don't take out any fees from our players. That makes the game free for those players, even if running it involves a cost for the owners.

Re: Nodeka
 

To quote Osiris from another forum:
"Just because players are not 'required' to pay does not mean that a mud is Free. Competing with others who get in game benefit from payments made to the mud basically turns your escape hobby into a reflection of real world haves and have-nots. You'll be encouraged and even pressured to pay at some point."

I think the problem is that it is too easy to play
games with combinations of the words "free" with "game",
"mud", "perks", etc. This is why I think the use of "free"
is inherently fraught with uncertainty when used in
mud promotion. There are too many ways to defend that
"free mud" is a true statement, when it is not as
flatly declarative of the mud's status as it might sound.

For that reason I propose a modification of the
classification Osiris proposed. I have also created an
article on MuWiki so that folks can participate:



The classification is as follows:

Payment Impossible
Type A: Payment and donations rejected.

Payment Optional
Type B: Donations encouraged but unrewarded with advantage.
Type C: Donations rewarded with in-game advantage that can be earned in-game.

Payment Required
Type D: Payment required for in-game advantage that can't be earned in-game.
Type F: Payment required to access most of the game's entertainment.


Based on this, I would give Nodeka a type C rating,
given what has been said in this thread.

-Crat

Re: Nodeka
 

Wait, now you're confusing me again...you said you're 100% free to play, even though one of your features is only available through payment - but now you're saying that a game is only free if you can access "all of the games features" without paying. Wouldn't that mean you're not free based on your own definition?

We already have a category for pay-to-play muds, so I think TMS has established that having to pay an electricity bill or an ISP doesn't make your mud non-free (otherwise every mud would be listed as pay-to-play).

Some muds are clearly pay-to-play, while others are completely free (as in, money never changes hands between the players and the mud owner). Between those two extremes lie many shades of grey, all of whom have a strong vested interest in advertising themselves as free. As such, this is a topic on which the TMS members will never reach agreement.

Of course every cloud has a silver lining. This issue has been around for a while, and has lead to the creation of two other mud-related sites, one of which is doing very well and the other of which shows promise. A third mud-related site has picked up on (and addressed) the demand for a 'pay-for-perks' option, and has slowly been growing in popularity.

Re: Nodeka
 

My own character does not have the extended map and I do not miss it one bit. Nodeka is free for me and free for anyone else.

Re: Nodeka
 

I like it.

Re: Nodeka
 

I also discussed some of the payment models here:

However rather than a single category, perhaps it might be better as a series of click-boxes within a 'Payment Model' category - something like:

No in-game impact:

[ ] You can donate, but get nothing in return.
[ ] You can purchase out-of-game merchandise (mugs, mousepads, etc).

Low-impact pay-for-perks:

[ ] You can purchase cosmetic things (renamed eq, fancy title, etc).
[ ] Pay for variety (eg a cool class which is on-par with free classes).
[ ] Pay to compensate for lost time (special case - see my link above).

Standard pay-for-perks:

[ ] Buy enhanced advancement (eg you pay to earn double exp).
[ ] Buy advantages that can also be earned through play (gold, etc).
[ ] Buy advantages that can replace regular play (levels, skills, etc).
[ ] Buy things that cannot otherwise be earned (special items, etc).
[ ] Buy non-transferable things that cannot otherwise be earned.

Pay-to-play:

[ ] Required one-off registration fee or purchase cost.
[ ] Regular subscription fee (hourly, monthly, etc).

Re: Nodeka
 

But that doesn't change the fact that one of your features is only available through payment, and you yourself have said that you only consider a game free if you can access "all of the games features" without paying.

Perhaps the extended map is a pretty minor feature, but this example helps highlight the problem of inconsistency prevalent in so many adverts, particularly if you start advertising the payment model based on such subjective terms as what you personally find useful. Maybe Bubba's mud has a $500 ubersword, but as a mage he doesn't need it, so he lists his mud as "100% free". Perhaps Boffo's mud requires payment to advance beyond level 10, but he's peachy just playing up to that point, so he advertises his mud as "100% free".

Re: Nodeka
 

KaVir said:
Ah, I missed that part. In that case Nodeka is type "D" according to the Crat Scale.

-Crat

Re: Nodeka
 

Which is exactly why TMS attempting to define "what does 100% free mean?" is pointless. If I can play a game, at no cost, it is free. If I cannot play a game without cost, it is not free. Everything between that is semantics.

At one end of the extreme: I stick a tic-tac-toe game in a room all new users go to and they can't leave that room without paying. You could argue that the game is still technically "free to play". Is that a fair label?

At the other extreme: I could have 50,000 rooms/objects/skills/spells/whatever fully available without ever spending a penny but if someone can get 5 seconds more on their armor spell for donating, or a slightly larger in-game map, some would argue that the game is technically not "free". Is that a fair label?

So let's stick to black and white facts that can't be debated, in addition to pay to play, which needs better defining:

[ ] Donations accepted Y/N?
[ ] Donations rewarded Y/N?

Possible third option:

[ ] ALL game content available without donating Y/N?

My problem with the third option? Let's go with the example we've been using. Imagine this:

"As of today the extended map is available without donations for just 17billion diamonds-of-uberness"

Technically all game content is now available without donating, let's not mention that 17 billion diamonds-of-uberness would take around 12 light years to collect. You start to add phrases like "reasonable amount of time", "high/low advantage" to the categorizations and you're back to subjectivity.

Another problem with the third option, define "game content"? Every piece of "content" may be available, but at what level? You can get Bubba's sword and I can get Bubba's sword, but is my Bubba's sword better than yours?

I agree this is important information to players but let's not beat it to death. There are as many variations on roleplaying style, on pk type and on many other categorizations. Take PK as an example, there is NO PK, there is FULL PK, everything in between is a gray area. In this case the grey area is listed as "Restricted Playerkilling" and players can choose to login to the mud in question to find out exactly what "Restricted Playerkilling" means in that MUD. Any attempt to categorize all styles of PK would be pointless - you can still never really pin down how ingrained PK is into that game without trying it. Same with "pay-for-perks".

Long note, so worth repeating this part:

I agree this is important information to players..

Re: Nodeka
 

Splitting the thread seems like a good idea to me too.

I think you make an excellent point about the subjective nature
of a reward's attainability in-game.

Still, it seems like even though unassailable certainty might not be possible,
general consensus might be.

-Crat

Re: Nodeka
 

Agreed, but these discussions started out with proposals of simply having a third "pay-for-perks" payment option, and that was shot down by the pay-for-perks mud owners who claimed that it unfairly overgeneralised their games.

Thus the attempt to categorise the muds in more detail.

Good idea.

Re: Nodeka
 

Put bluntly, claims like those made by Nodeka are lies. Terms like "100%" or "completely" do not apply to games where any option affecting gameplay requires payment. Maybe they are "75% free" or "almost completely free" but so long as there is any means of in-game advantage or advancement or feature that requires the application of real-life capital to attain then that would negate a claim of "100%". If there are a million ways to play and only one requires "donation", that still means it's only 99.9999% free. To claim otherwise would require a statement qualifying the methods which are "100% free" so long as any in-game method of playing features options of payment.

Take care,

Jason

Re: Nodeka
 

Splitting the thread is an excellent idea. This is a general issue that only remotely is connected to Nodeka's ad. The principal discussion is much better on its own.

And thank you for taking this question seriously. It's a big step forward.

Re: What Does Free Mean
 

Free typically means, in common usage, that you don't have to directly pay (a MUD is still free just because you need to pay for a computer and internet connection to play it) for something with money or barter of chattel. The big exception there is that your personal time and energy is usually excluded as a cost. (So, spending time and energy on playing a MUD wouldn't typically be taken into account in the common usage of free.)

That's it really. If you can play for free, it's free, whether or not there is the opportunity to spend money. In fact, common usage has that even if the only way to get something in a game is to pay for it, it is still a free game as long as you don't have to pay for it to continue to play. For instance, if I'm giving away (legally-purchased of course) copies of Oblivion, I'm perfectly within my rights to claim that you can play Oblivion for free by accepting my free copy, even though there are things within Oblivion that are only obtainable by paying for them (downloadable content).

Note how standard this use of 'free' is.
* calls some of its servers free-to-play and some members servers. You can't even get onto the members servers (where the world is much, much larger) without paying a subscription. (Currently 182,000 players online).
* is promoted as free although becoming a member takes a one-time $15 payment. (18,000 players currently online.)
* Heck, just go to and click on the list of Free MMORPGs, most of which take some sort of payment to unlock things (unlike other games, like ours, that accept payment but in which you can always obtain anything without paying) but all of which are free to play.

--matt

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

To me it is very simple. If money in any way influences any part of the gameplay, then the game isn't free. Calling the transactions 'donations' or 'pay-for-perks' isn't purely semantic. The definition of a 'donation' is that you give without expecting or receiving any reward, otherwise the transaction is a sale.

It doesn't matter much if the perks are available by normal gameplay or not. Naturally the former is preferable, but as long as you can pay for something that normally takes X hours of time to achieve in the game, you are still buying an advantage over other players.

What really counts is whether the gameplay is affected. So pure donations, or selling mousepads and T-shirts from the website are okey - as long as no in-game benefits are received the game is still free.

But to avoid the usual semantics around the word 'Free'. let's go for KaVir's 3 main categories;

1. No in-game benefits
2. In-game benefits available
2A. Low-impact pay-for-perks
2B. Standard pay-for-perks
3. Pay-to-play

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

Well, your personal opinion aside, where's the evidence for this as the meaning of free? It's a lot more productive to talk about how the word IS used in culture rather than how you wish the word was used.

That is flat-out untrue. All sorts of organizations do fund-raising drives where you donate and in return get a package of stuff. Nobody calls these anything but donations, including the government tax agencies. For instance, National Public Radio frequently does fund-raising drives where you donate variable amounts and get variable packages of stuff as a thank you.

What does buying an advantage over other players have to do with free? You're talking about perceived fairness now. The two don't have anything to do with each other.

Again, that's to do with your personal perception of fairness, not whether something is free or not.

--matt

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

We (the collective users of this site, not me and you) are never going to agree on the definition of "free". If I can login and enjoy your game without feeling any need to buy whatever you may or may not have on offer, to me it is free. There are hundreds of thousands of sites on the net that are "free" but where you can pay for additions. Free email but buy additional space, free stock site but buy the newsletter, free personal-page but buy widgets, etc, etc. The phrase being used a lot there is "freemium".

Would you argue that this site isn't free? It's free if you're a user looking for a MUD. It's free if you're a MUD owner looking to list their MUD. It isn't free if you're a MUD owner looking to get the most the site can offer you. Most are content to enjoy it, free, without worrying about whether or not they have "the most". By the path being taken with MUDs, then TMS is a "pay site". How many people looking for a site on MUDs might see that label and think "uhoh, no thanks" when the site would meet their needs perfectly without any need, obligation or even mention of them ever paying? The only point there really being that "free" is in the eyes of each individual player.

I'm kind of jumping roles here, between interested participant in the discussion and the site admin. As the site admin I am not going to claim authority on the definition of what is and is not considered "free", and defining "minor/meaningful" advantage would just make the hole deeper. Brings us right back to facts:

[ ] Payment required to play? (replacing pay-to-play).
[ ] Payment / Donations accepted.
[ ] Payment / Donations rewarded in-game.
[ ] No Payment / Donations accepted, period.

Even as clean cut as that looks it isn't. We have to assume on good faith, for example, that an "unrewarded" donation is not indirectly rewarded in-game via the gratitude of the MUD staff. We have to assume that if a grateful player on a "no donations" MUD sends that admin a birthday present it doesn't suddenly mean they accept donations.

This needs addressing, but it needs to be done once and right in a way that is fair to both sides of the fence and I can see no better way to do that than with options that are facts, not opinions we will endlessly debate.

Re: Nodeka
 

But again, this is an opinion, one of many possible interpretations of the facts.

Better to present the facts and let each reader decide what the facts mean to them.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

Another word of advice:

Many players look for the Free Mud, or Free this or that. I stated before that I respect both types of Muds: those that are Free and those that are Pay to play and everthing in between. Keep in mind the old proverb - You get what you pay for.

By this I mean that some feel that a free mud should and does offer all the guaranties, playability, fixes, and staff assistance that a pay mud offers. This is simply not the case in most circumstances. A mud that is bringing in donations or payments can offer more services and you can expect more services. Several of the top 20 muds on TMS are virtually free but also offer some form of payment either through donations or registrations or credits. These Muds can utilize resources to enhance playability.

Make no mistake, Muds cost time, money, and resources to operate. Having funding to keep them operating not only gives a player a sense of responsibility and ownership, it grants the mud operators the ability to use those resources for enhancements and administration.
Simply put, having funds greatly enhances a mud and should not be discounted when you are seeking a mud to play. While many very exciting and well administered muds that are completely free exist. In the 10 years I have programmed, administered, and played numerous games, the above proverb has always ringed true - You get what you pay for.

Let me finish by saying that New Worlds Mud is completely free, but I vehemently defend and support those games that do have registration, donations, and credits for play.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

This may come as a surprise, but I almost totally agree with you.

1. I totally agree there. We, the collective users of this site, will never agree about the definition of the word 'free'. So. like I already said in an earlier post, let's not argue about semantics, and instead concentrate on the proposed options for the search engine.

2. I wouldn't call this site free, no. To paraphrase Orwell's classical Animal Farm; 'All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others'. It seems to me that those that pay for adverts get a bit more than the banners they pay for. They also seem to get a larger impact on decisions, and how the discussion boards are run. I will however hold my final assessment until I see the outcome of this thread.

3. I am perfectly happy with your 4 categories. If you would implement those in the search engine, I think it would be valid improvement for the site.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

matt/sarapis/the_logos/whatever wrote:

This is the position that makes people think that
"free mud" is an inadequate descriptive term.

Since the ability to play some portion or aspect of
the mud for free is easy to provide, any commercial
mud can, under your definition, call itself "free"
even while insisting that advancement past level 1
requires payment.

This definition of "free" may be satisfactory for
the purposes of the mud advertising itself, but it
goes against what I feel is the implied (indeed,
common sense) meaning of "free" in a mud context.

From the frequency with which this disagreement
pops up, I suspect I am not the only one who feels
this way.

Because "free" is commonly used in misleading ways,
I think it's more productive to avoid "free" as
a category in mud listings, and opt for a system
that accurately describes the relationship of
the given mud with their players' money.

I fancy my modified Osiris scale, though KaVir's
will do nicely as well.

The idea is to avoid the abuse of confidence that
marketing commercial muds* as "free" represents.

-Crat


*Where the commerce involves the players' money.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

No let's not wait. I'd like to hear the facts behind your temporary assessment rather than wait for the final one. I'd like to hear what else they get. If nothing else then perhaps I can market it and place a few more banners.

Help me understand your point better, because right now it reads something like:

If this thread goes how you'd like all is well. If this thread doesn't go how you'd like it is to cater to the MUDs buying banners.

There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of room in there for consideration of the possibility that it is simply because someone doesn't agree with you - with or without financial incentive? This may not be your meaning at all of course, which is why I'm asking.

Back to the matter at hand, it seems we have similar ideas on what could be added, but that isn't the point.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

I disagree that accurately marketing a MUD as free when it is, in fact, free is an abuse of confidence just because the MUD is commercial. I can watch broadcast tv networks for free and they are inarguably commercial enterprises.

Whether something is commercial or not has no bearing on whether it's free or not.

As for enterprises that accept payments from players, at minimum if you're able to attain/achieve everything without paying I genuinely fail to see how that is not a free experience. You might not think it's fair but then why not start a thread about fair and have that discussion there.

--matt

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

I doubt it really matters, but I'm in the "Free" means there are no pay-for-perks or to unlock anything or whatever. If someone tells me I can play a game for free, I expect to be able to take advantage of everything that game offers for nothing and compete with everyone regardless of how much money they have. This means, even if I can earn stuff in-game that other people pay for with money, I expect it to take no more effort than the sucker... err... customer with the credit card ;)

I don't have a problem with games that offer both options, but I tend to avoid games where the guy with more money than me gets more stuff. And yes, this does mean I tend to avoid MMO's as well as MUD's a lot these days!

I'm also curious about this part of Mollys post:

Since when? Lasher has listened to my opinions on things and included me in all talk regarding the discussion boards as far as I'm aware and I pay for nothing on this site, nor do I have anything to do with a pay-for-play/perks/monkies MUD. I'm curious as to why you think this is otherwise? The only person with a vested interest in a particular game who gets more say than anyone else here is Lasher himself, and I think so far he's done an excellent job of keeping his affiliation with Aardwolf from affecting his running of this site.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

Lasher fumed:
Apparently the influence of businesses on this site is a touchy subject.
It is, however, a valid point of discussion and I hope it can be discussed
without risk of incurring administrative enmity.

matt/sarapis/the_logos/whatever wrote:
This appears to be the point you are not grasping. Since
people's opinion on "free" differs, and you are not the
final arbiter of what it means to the reader of your ad,
it is reasonable to presume that many people will view
"free" in the way they have expressed it here. That
reasonable presumption does indeed make it an abuse
of confidence, even if you are convinced you are right,
because you understand that others do not view it as you do,
and you are presenting the ad as fact.

Pretending that your opinion of "free" is the only valid
one may work for you, but in this thread you are not
boss of its definition. Unless I've missed something.

-Crat

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

So if someone advertised "Play Oblivion for Free" and gave you a copy of Oblivion for your 360 (pretend you have one if you don't!), you'd have a problem with the claim that you can play Oblivion for free just because there are a couple pieces of content that you have to buy to experience?

--matt

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

To a certain extent yes. I don't view it as so much of a problem with Oblivion because it's only me on the playing field, so I don't have to worry about some Creosote always being better than me just because he has money.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

My 'temporary assessment' is based on things that I have seen happen on this site in the past. Which in fact was the main reason why I left the discussion boards and stayed away for a couple of years.

The site has a new owner now, and hopefully this will mean a change, but it's all very new still. So far you have been doing very well. But this thread is the first real conflict of interests, so it will be something of a test.

But it IS the point.
Right now it seems we have similar ideas of what could be added.

You run the site. The final decision is yours. As long as that decision is yours exclusively, and based solely on facts, I guess we'll all be fine.

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

But that really speaks more to how you view MUDs (as competitive enterprises) than anything else. I don't look at MUDs as competitive games, for instance, but virtual worlds to be experienced.

Further, you will never know whether Creosote is better than you because he spent money. Admins are not able to stop players buying services or goods from other players for real money. All you can now is what the official policy of the game is, not whether players are either buying stuff on the sly from admins or buying stuff from other players or 3rd party vendors.

Is what the admin says the policy is more important than what the reality is?

--matt

Re: What does "Free" Mean?
 

No, I'm not the final arbiter of what free means. Nobody is given that English is a living language.

However, in the US at least, there is a final arbiter (the Federal Trade Commission) about what the word 'free' means in commerce (TMS being a commercial site). Here's a link to a plain language summary on using the word 'free,' from the FTC itself:

Our lawyers assure us that we don't even skirt any grey areas when it comes to saying our games are free or free to play, based both on the published guidelines and on case law. Again, this is just the standard use of the word free. (You're also allowed to say something is free even if you make someone BUY something to get that 'free' thing. Such as, "Buy 1 get 1 Free.")


The arbiter of what free means in commerce disagrees with you.


You have.

--matt