Due to a post which has been removed, user deleted, on Kenetix, Kris from ICE-MAN has copied the HTML from Kenetix and has kept a copy of it on his own site without my permission.

Is this legal? I'd rather not have that trash further associated with my site. It was in violation of the established guidelines. It was offensive, even to myself. Now, in response to my request for him to remove his copied version of my site, he has told me to have my lawyer contact him. I'd do this if not for the fact I try hard just to pay my hosting bill every month so I can keep providing the 5 or so MUDs I host with free service. He'd rather see me put these poor learners out and spend the money I have on a lawyer than show some respect?

THe site:



Advice welcome. I just want to know if I'm in the right to make my request of him, or if he's in the right to pass it off by telling me to have my lawyer call him. If I'm right, I'll take this further.

-- Xorith

There's also nothing worse than a troll who has a large collection of self-portraits.

Thank you for reminding me why I started Kenetix and the forums there. These posts that provide nothing to the discussion are unneeded, undesired, and just some person's cry for help.

Now, would anyone else care to share an opinion that's worthwhile? I'm actually hoping KaVir blesses this thread with his knowledge (and vicious retorts).

As for the other reply:
That's a pro-bono (spelling?) lawyer. I'm intelligent enough to realize that what I have here isn't enough to draw any sort of settlement worth the effort of that kind of lawyer. I just want my content off of that site. Erdos probably doesn't *have* a site to manage, so he probably hasn't a clue why someone would be upset to find everything ripped and pasted on another site.

No, Xorith. pro bono is working for free, not fot a cut of the settlement.

If you actually do have copyright to the material, you could notify the hosting provider informally that your copyright is being violated and then step it up with a DMCA notice if you're brushed off.

If all you're concerned about is the text of someone else's post, then I'm not sure how much standing you have to complain.

Stilton

All things considered, it is probably protected under "fair use", specificly parody, as the context is rather critical to what's being communicated.  Your Freedom of Speech banner flying over a post you deleted that was obviously meta-mud political satire that you disagreed with.  You are being mocked and made fun of.  

I have noticed you InterMud people have had this hard-on contest going on for awhile.  Like clockwork one of you pops a boner for us forum readers to marvel at and enjoy every month.  But I have to tell you it's the proportionate drop in blood pressure in your brains that I find more interesting.

The post was actually making fun of Kris, and I personally believed he would be happy we removed it to put an end to what was an obvious attempt to start another flamewar with him.

I don't particularly care one way or the other that he posted a rip of the site to his own archive of such things, but it seems to me he himself has done so to generate more crap. So I don't think it's entirely unreasonable for Xorith to ask him to take it down.

We've been trying to silence the endless monthly cycle of Kris and his attacks on us, and now this other person crops up and tries to start something none of us wants to start. I'm just sorry I didn't notice it sooner and get it deleted before Kris saw fit to preserve it for all time.

To educate those who might not know (or care)...

This has gone beyond InterMUD. Kenetix does recognize free speech, however the one thing everyone seems to forget is what freedom comes with - responsibility. You say something out of line, you must take responsibility for that. When someone steps in and impersonates an official of another site, don't you think that crosses the line of free speech? I do. That's no longer one person speaking freely about their ideas. That's now a person attempting to discredit and attack someone else while hiding behind a shroud.

Kris has kept the post because he assumes I did it. The funny part about this is everyone has witnessed one thing about me that's golden: I take responsibility for what I say. I wouldn't make such a post hiding behind a false identity. Though, this is all beside the point.

I also don't entirely get the problems people have with IMC. It's like you all assume we just sit here and plan flames in advance. I realized after my last outburst that it does nothing. It's just unfortunate that others can't see the same way. Now, it seems that someone didn't like me going quiet and they felt the need to drag me back into the flames.

Which ever the case, can we get someone here who'll not bitch about IMC, boners, and the like? Maybe someone who has more legal input than insults?

-- Xorith

Being a completely impartial observer ( I do not know either party involved and really could not care less about the squable, but reading the boards here help pass the time..), I have to ask the question of What exactly is the problem here? It does not appear to be simply "he copied my site".

Xorith,
First, it was not a "site", but instead a single page.

Second, unless you were the author of the post, (which you already stated that you are not) the only copyright violation (which I assume is what you are claiming) might be the use of your logo and advertising banner on the page.

Third, I would have to agree this tends to appear to be satire that is allowed under fair-use. Your claim of free speach coupled with the removal of personally offensive posts is contradictory. I was offended by the vulgar language in the post, but your posts contain vulgar language also so you cannot claim that as a cause to remove.

Fourth, I went to the ICEMAN site and looked for a link to the archive. I could not find one, but perhaps I did not search long enough. How did you come upon the location?

I am addressing all this to you, not as a flame, but as the original complainant. You started the thread and asked for responses. Just drop the issue and ignore the whole matter. Until this post came along, I did not even know about EITHER of you and your projects.

Kris of ICEMAN,
As a gesture of good will to the MUDding community and to Xorith, perhaps you could move the page to another location and remove the Kenetix logo?

To all,
Remember, games will come and go, websites will come and go, but the real outside world is permanent. Live life in the real world, and only play in the virtual world.

I just want to clarify:

Samson removed the post, then told me. I was upset at first for the removal, until Samson showed me the archived link. After reading it, not only do I support it being removed, but I was upset to see that *my* site's logo and name is now associated with someone else's libel on a site I have no control over.

Let me ask you this - Freedom of speech is something this country of ours has (the US for those not living here). If you impersonate a corporate official of say Microsoft, and with that false name and title you spread lies about the company, is this not illegal? It's slander, for one. It could even be taken as far as identity theft. For this, I'm glad the post was removed. I also ask that replies stay on topic to the discussion. This post did not do this at all.

If this person posted the same remarks under his own identity and under a seperate discussion, I would have not been happy to see it removed. Kris would be upset, yes, but he'd also have a clue of who had done it.

Anywho, if Kris feels the need to save these clips of lies and trash, I guess it's his house he's dirtying. You made a good point - I don't think it's publically viewable. I'm not even sure how Samson came across it. I also think it's some how contributing to my hit counter.

Thanks for the input.

-- Xorith

I suggest reading up on Copyright law. There are numerous free links out there with lots of stuff for 'newbies' to the field.

The number one problem you have is your copyright notice:

"All logos and trademarks in this site are property of their respective owner. The comments are property of their posters, all else © 2004 by Jonathan Walker and Kenetix Hosting.
Private Message Xorith for information on hosting with Kenetix.
Web site engine code is Copyright © 2003 by PHP-Nuke. All Rights Reserved. PHP-Nuke is Free Software released under the GNU/GPL license.
Page Generation: 1.216 Seconds


:: Eos phpbb2 style by Cyberalien :: PHP-Nuke theme by ::"

"all else" seem a bit vague. Especially considering that just down below PHP-Nuke does the same thing with 'all rights reserved'.

Your essentially using a free code system to make something.
It wasn't something you paid for (unless you got ripped off), so basically you have no claims. You don't hold a liscense for it. That at least is my understanding.

If you really don't want people to copy you, you should at least put a few countermeasures up... like set up a simple javascript that prevents right clicking so people can't "view source".

Hey is this yours or someone impersonating you?

Yes, it was me who removed the post. I saw it for what it was - a useless troll to try and ignite another flamewar. Kris has been dilligently doing so month after month, crafting ever more interesting ways to try and smear us in the process. To have someone *ELSE* show up and try to fan the flames was too much and I moved to delete it as soon as I saw it. Obviously I was too late.

While we do believe in the principles of free speech on Kenetix, I too agree with Xorith that it comes with some level of responsibility. What the troll did could be viewed as "incitement to riot" which last I checked, in the US, is not a good thing to be doing. I had figured Kris would appreciate having it dealt with quickly so as not to have it seen by the whole world, but I guess he doesn't, since he rushed to rip the page source and post it on his server. It's not the first time he's rushed off to do something like that to make us look bad before asking us to remove it and then claiming it was removed due to puiblic pressure from him. Well this time it's his fault of dozens of people now get to read what he's taken offense to. We did what we felt was right in trying to mitigate the damage. At least the two polls which had also been posted were never picked up by anyone. If you can believe it, those polls were easily more offensive than the now immortalized post.

It should also be noted that the imposter poster showed up again later that day to repost the entire thing along with another post, both of which were equally vulgar and offensive. Fortunately those got noticed before Kris had the chance to immortalize them.

Geez, can't you folks keep your whatever conflicts, flamewars, vendettas or what-the-crap ever it is you're doing from spilling into dozens of other sites?

While there might indeed be a legal issue at heart here, I fail to see how relevant it is to mudding itself.

I sure hope they can't.

These periodic flame wars they have are totally hilarious and quite entertaining.

And to think these flames are all over something as trivial as intermud communication networks.

One word in response to that:  Ethics

Yes, there are a few legal issues here, not just one...

Lets start this off with...Copyright:


[code]
<META content=Kenetix name=AUTHOR>
<META content="Copyright (c) 2003 by Kenetix" name=COPYRIGHT>
[/quote]

Well well, since Kris isn't related to Kenetix, that's blatant abuse per source code for the html page itself.  Moving on to privacy...

I would say Appropriation or right of privacy falls into play here, citing:

Kris could be viewed as trying to cause problems, and draw more hits to his page as a result of said post - it's covered under appropriation or right of privacy as a result.

Failure to comply with request to remove is another thing I'd  bring up too, It's quite evident from what I see, and there is -NO- gray area in that respect.  The post is defamatory in general, and is yet another attempt at fishing attention using a pity ploy.

That above being said...

Xorith, have his ISP directly contacted with a cease and desist order in regards to the page.  If they don't pull it they can, under U.S. law, lose the right to host as a result of the above cited items. - Title 17, chapter 6, section 512 has a few items listed throughout it that will assist greatly in this.

Zaroth-

That's no response at all. That's a blanket statement, and could just as well apply to SCO vs FOSS.