How many muds have permadeath?
 

By permadeath, I mean real permadeath. You die- game over. The end. Finita la musica. How does permadeath alter the way people play?

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

Two of the JTS games have permadeath. (The third, well, you're dead when the game starts, so permadeath is rather redundant.)

How does it affect players? Well, it makes them think twice about getting into life and death situations. It makes them think maybe three or four times before taking on a life or death situation against vastly superior numbers. And it gives a lot of gravitas to someone's sacrifice when they put themselves in a heroic dying-for-other-people scene.

We do offer some ways around dying. The first is the common sense that should come standard with every player. The other: Luck cards. Players who do a lot of RPing earn points to spend on things like luck cards, which can be used to "buy" themselves out of certain death. When the cards run out, of course, that's the end of the show.

The loss still stings, but we try to make sure players know from Day 1 that death for their characters is guaranteed someday (especially now that the current incarnation of OS will close next June). It's up to them - and their interactions with others - to determine how soon that death comes.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

How many muds have permadeath? That's pretty difficult to find out, but not a whole lot. To me, there are two kinds of permadeath:


1) True permadeath: if you die in any way, you're gone. Pretty rare, only the RPI muds and a few others have this. The purpose of this style of death is to make the game as realistic as possible, and to make sure that the players truly do as their character would if they were a living, breathing individual. It's easy to take nonsensical risks if dying means you have to spend an hour getting the xp points back; if it means a terminate loss of said character, the player is much more likely to stay in-character and act realistically.

2) "Soft" permadeath: it's possible to permanently lose the character, but it's not as simple as "death = bye". It might let you die a certain amount of times before the character finally ends, or you might need to die without a specific item on you, or in a particular way. Muds that have systems like these are often roleplay-enforced without taking the step to become a true RPI mud.


What does permadeath do for a game? As I mentioned above, it promotes realistic roleplay. Permadeath generally does not belong on a mud where roleplay is not the focus, although it could be there as a game difficulty similar to Diablo2's "hardcore" mode. Actions and consequences become a lot more real and interesting when a mistake could cost you months or years of work, and it makes it so much easier for the player to feel the real fear of death. Most purist roleplayers will not consider a game without permadeath to be a true roleplaying game.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

I personally meant to question to pertain solely to true permadeath. But then I didn't think of soft permadeath as permadeath. Is it?

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

If it's possible to completely lose a character due to in-game circumstances (not such things as punishment from staff), the game has permadeath. That's my opinion. A system like Brody's is what I'd consider soft permadeath, while muds such as Armageddon and Shadows of Isildur have true permadeath.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

Erm - it's possible to completely lose a character on OS due to in-game circumstances. If a player hasn't earned any luck cards, they're dead. Nothing soft about it. No consent required - yer dead. The luck cards just offer a representation of a player's investment of RP Reward Points to try and keep the character alive a little longer.

So, maybe the best way to describe it is permadeath with a (temporarily) open grave.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

Well, it's just a conflict of opinion. I don't consider it true permadeath if you can somehow avoid losing a dead character by, for example, having a "luck card". Permadeath yes, but I'll call it soft.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

Worth agreeing to disagree on this one. I just see it as having as chance to dodge death. But, for example, during a recent planetside battle during the Phyrrian war, we had one character (newly apped) with no luck cards. He died. Permanently. We had others who had cards, used them to cheat death for a while, and then, when the cards ran out, died. Permanently.

I don't think it's soft. I just think it's cinematic. You're still possibly going to die, it just might be drawn out a little more.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

The strange thing is, I find the opposite of what is reported and expected to be true. I played a game where there was no permadeath, and there was xp and levels. And people stuck to the safe places - unwilling to risk their xp and equipment. Now I play a permadeath game, and people live lives filled with hardship and danger. Not reckless, but with risks.

Odd, huh?

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

Well, it depends a lot on how the game is designed. A game might be relatively easy with a focus on grinding moreso than risky battles. Some games reward time spent where others reward risks survived. A mud such as Armageddon is built specifically to portray an extremely dangerous world, so even though it has permadeath, people are going to live risky lives simply because that's how the game works.


Agreed to disagree.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

since you're asking for *true permadeath* which is unfamiliar and not necessarily important term for mudders..

once i've been playing an horror game called Clive Barker's Undying..i said to myself '' if you die, game is OVER'' .this decision made my experience with the game much more exciting. i only played it alone, only at nights with candles scattered around my room.

i never died but got sick of my bad habit of saving again again (i obviously needed to set another rule regarding this saving issue) and couldn't help myself to keep playing. the game's atmosphere was just too brilliant and vibrant for me to maintain my welfare.

well, this is true permadeath..you can set this rule yourself for any mud you like but it's not reasonable in games those involve other PCs with other rules..

(you have your account there in most RPIs and can use your knowledge you have had with previous characters.)

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

New Worlds has permadeath, but it does not happen to everyone, so you might call it "soft", and the game is different depending on where you start your character. Nevertheless, the real question was how does permadeath affect a character?

I'll answer it this way: Based on playing permadeath muds myself and discussion with those that have played both styles, I've found when people say "Hash Permadeath is true Intensive Roleplay," I say "pffft, because players that play on fully permadeath muds still know all their 'buddies" when they restart and go and rp with them regardless of whether they have a "new character" or not. It is exactly the same on a mud that you don't have permadeath, but lose knowledge of characters on death: Your friends also come help you regear, get coins, and you get back into the "group" you play with.

So, in short, there is no difference between a permadeath mud and a mud that has alternative methods of negativity on death, when it comes to social interaction or group power. The players still find their buddies and play with them.

However, when it comes to exploring or adventuring, permadeath or not permadeath, the real question is "how harsh is death?" And the harsher the death, the more timid the player is to explore.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

Depends on the style of game and what's involved in getting a character.

For example, some RPI games aren't about gear or levels, they're about developing and building a character. So, you might spend weeks or even months just planning out a character concept to put it into a world where that character could be wiped out. I've known many a player who developed an attachment to their characters under those kinds of circumstances and when they lost the character, it wasn't as easy as running through chargen again with a new character just to be with their pals once more. Running through again may mean re-investing in an entirely new concept, submitting a fresh bio/application, and hoping for the best.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

We instituted permadeath into Advent, but I was actually originally against it. However my staff were fairly adamant for it so I wanted to give it a try.

Come to find out, I think it has enriched the MUD greatly (and we're only in Alpha testing). We've been open for Alpha testing for just over a year (Our 1 year anniversary was October 2nd), and we've had a small handful of deaths (I'm thinking maybe 10 in the last year total) from PK. But they were significant deaths, with much meaning behind them, and it helped create even more RP.

Because we put ourselves in the mindset of the players constantly, we've wanted to develop ways that permadeath would not deter people from playing the game. As such, we've recently implemented a way that people who have gained the most RPP (Roleplay Points that are rewarded by staff and automated for consistently good RP), are given the ability to advance their character fairly far during creation, rather than having to level up again.

If they've already proven themselves as good roleplayers, we decided it is better to reward them by not having them have to level their next alt as much at all. This will also allow them to create "troublesome" characters that will most likely have a short existence, and not have to worry about "advancing skills all over again."

We just don't see the need to put as much emphasis on advancing skills. We'd rather it be on roleplay and customization. So this works well with a permadeath system. I can't imagine not having one now :)

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

It's possible to wind up permadead on LS, but you have to kinda work at it. You start with 30 lives and are deleted if you lose all of them; you can buy more with gold. So it's unusual and generally a sign of large amounts of carelessness for this to happen.

The main exception to all that is Yog-Sothoth, who, if you're a ghost in his presence, will start eating your lives.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

Well, I have had the opposite experience. The mud where I play, which has what I consider true permadeath (one death = the end, no exceptions or chance of avoidance), the issue you describe where buddies just get together again after a death has never been a noticeable problem. Of course it's not unheard of that a player ends up playing with the same gang as they did with a previous character, but if it's done in a manner that makes it obvious that they did it for OOC reasons, and without the proper in-character approach, the staff will typically take note and reprimend the player for it. Most players, upon losing a character, choose to play a completely different character in another area specifically to avoid ending up with the same associates, in the same plotlines, or in the same clan. There's a gigantic difference between permadeath and no permadeath, I find your statement to be in complete conflict with what I've experienced through years of mudding. I'll venture to claim that permadeath is usually the biggest differentiating factor between any two given muds; no other single property will set two games more apart than whether or not death means the loss of your character.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

While permanently dead, that's not really what I meant by permadeath. I mean death as an immediate and realistic conclusion.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

I disagree. RP enforced vs. Hack/slash, is a MUCH bigger difference. Though I will say that some games claim rp enforced but have 13 year olds running around talking about Halo 3 and Xbox mid game. I see hardly any difference in player action in perma vs resurrected death.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

I definitely don't knock permadeath, and I don't have a gripe with persistant characters through death either. Honestly, I feel that both is a risk/reward type of thing, and I don't think one is much better than the other when talking outside the scope of a specific game. Permadeath doesn't make anyone play more "realistically" than a non-peramdeath game with harsh penalties or even undesireable death penalties. The game designs that create unrealistic play are games like WoW where you will die in order to get somewhere faster or other games where you can use death as a quick teleport. That, however, is game design choice.

On our game, death is harsh. If a character chooses to die, everyone in the game knows that they're making a huge sacrifice, and sometimes, you just don't come back from it. You VERY rarely see anyone doing something that they know will result in death without a great deal of RP to back it up because it results in months and sometimes years of work.

I've been parts of permadeath games where the character is designed to die from the beginning. That's RP, but it's not exactly always realistic. It tells a story, and sometimes, it tells a GREAT story. It doesn't necessarily mean that it ALWAYS tells a good story or that it's always good RP.

In ANY game I play, permadeath or not, I always try to survive, and if I can survive, then I always try to excel. Depending on the game design, I will usually be cautious and diplomatic until I am able to begin manipulating things my way. This is consistant for me in permadeath or non-permadeath games. I'm thankful to a good friend who convinced me to try permadeath games, but my love will always be persistant character play with a serious death penalty. Above all, I look for RP enforced games. I find that to be the biggest sticking point for me in looking for a MUD regardless of there being permadeath or not.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

To me, it's not as much about whether or not players take greater risks or try harder to survive. On roleplaying muds, permadeath serves as a means to enhance roleplay. There are many things you can't really do, or won't get much out of doing, if death is just a setback. How are you going to roleplay an assassination if the target, upon being killed, just returns with some coded penalties? Or how do you explain what happened when he is revived by the use of an OOC reward? How many player-established plots will have very awkward endings or fade out on the drawing board when faced with the obstacle of non-permanent death?

It ultimately boils down to the game's theme. Muds that aim for complete realism and focus entirely on roleplay just won't work without full, no-exception permadeath. If there's a way around dying, well then you usually don't get all-out roleplay where the players are completely in-character at all times. I don't mind games that consider themselves "roleplaying enforced" while having such things as free-for-all OOC channels, non-permadeath, or experience/levels. It's the game developer's choice, and it's entirely a matter of personal opinion whether or not it's the best type of game. I've just never seen a mud with anything but my interpretation of true permadeath, or with any of the above qualities (levels, gossip channels etc.), that could give me the true roleplaying experience.

When I evaluate a roleplaying mud for its quality of roleplay, one of the main deciding factors is its death system. Nothing scores higher than simple one-strike-out permadeath, just as a level/class-less system is the most realistic. The more out-of-character aspects that you factor in, the less focus there will be on roleplaying, whether it's the developers' decision or a result of a playerbase who has trouble immersing completely with their characters and the game world.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

First,

Mina hit the nail on the head.

But in response to some of these quotes, I must take issue as follows:
Completely disagree with this. I've seen zero roleplay on the permadeath of someone and zero roleplay on the pendeath (penalty death) and also fantastic roleplay on both, so this premise is false, in my opinion.

Easily and consistently and depends entirely on the model whether permadeath or pendeath.

I really hate the "realism" argument. Muds aren't real nor do they try to be real. The best quote I heard on this is the following: "Look, I don't want to have to eat every 5 or 6 hours and then take a sh** once or twice a day. Get real? No thanks."

Exactly. And for you permadeath is your marker for roleplay. For hundreds others it is not and for many it is even a detriment to roleplay.

Again the realism factor. Seriously, if you were serious about realism, you'd be finding a game that makes you put a bandaid on when you get a cut, then wait 2 weeks for it to heal if it does at all. You would sleep on the game IC 8 hours a day, and use the toilet, vomit when you get sick, have eyesight problems, get mosquito bites, get pregnant when you had sex as well as contract any number of diseases. You would even get fat when eating and be weaker depending on the type of food you ate, sluggish when you fight, have a shorter right arm then left, be slower right after you woke up or late at night, have wind factors on projectile weapons, vision problems depending on weather. This list could continue on, but I think you get the picture.

In short, kill the "realism" thing. It is only as real as the world you play in, otherwise I'd be freaking out seeing that dog talk to that unicorn.

Finally, I'm not against permadeath or pendeath, I just think after playing numerous RPI's and RPE's and only RPI/RPE's I think exactly like Mina. Neither is better, the quality of RP is fully based on the game and players. I just have a gripe with "permadeath" junkies that call it the "end all" with rp. It isn't, nor is it any better at making real rp than pendeath.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

How is it false? You can't possibly argue that permadeath is not a measure taken to promote roleplay. Whether or not it works is a matter of personal experience. Ours must conflict into the extremes as I have almost always found the quality of a mud's roleplay to be in direct proportion to its realism and, thus, in part, its permadeath system. I've tried every RPI mud I've been able to find, and a lot of RPE muds. None of the ones without permadeath in some form have provided what I'd consider even moderate-quality roleplay, and only the ones with true permadeath have provided the complete and believable roleplay experience.

The best roleplaying muds find an acceptable balance between realism and playability. If the goal is full-focused roleplay with as little OOC interference as possible, this means that the only realistic aspects that are removed are such things as the need to go to the bathroom, which nobody wants to play. To dismiss realism in an argument about roleplay is pretty odd.

It's one of my markers for roleplay. Nothing would deter me more than having my character kill another character for an entirely in-character reason, and then seeing that same character the next day walking around, especially (and I have experienced this) if they're walking around shouting "beware the assassin Amos, he's a tall dark-skinned man who wears a grey mask!". Or seeing players commit ridiculous acts of nonsense because they knew that it couldn't result in real death; that's what I've seen on every self-proclaimed roleplaying mud where death was just a setback that you could work around.

Ah, but I do look for games that incorporate as many aspects of realism as possible without sacrificing playability to a critical degree. If you look at any of the long-standing, established and popular RPI muds, you'll find that the very key ingredient is realism, the thing that makes people roleplay responsibly and convincingly because one of the possible consequences to not doing so could be, you know, death.

To dismiss realism in a discussion about roleplay is about as valid as dismissing the idea of class balance on a hack'n'slash PvP mud. If the players aren't captivated and immersed with the game they play, they'll usually have a harder time roleplaying their character to the fullest. For the exact same reason that a movie wouldn't be as good if every five minutes you catch a glimpse of the camera crew, my opinion is that the quality of a roleplaying mud is proportionate to how often in-game events and factors remind you that it's just a game. Of course the player knows that it's a game, but the less they think about it while roleplaying, the better they do it.

My experiences, and thus opinions, are in direct conflict with this statement. I think you'll find similar response from just about any established roleplayer on every single RPI mud that incorporates such outrageous aspects as realism and permanent death.

Also, I find it amusing when in a discussion about roleplay, somebody mentions a "roleplaying mud" that rewards people who "roleplay often". On RPI muds, with the exception of a few inevitable twinks who are usually dealt with, everybody always roleplays, at all times, without exception. That's why RPI is the only thing I've ever been able to consider the true roleplaying experience. It's very much comprable to theater: if the actors are on stage in the middle of a performance, they don't just go out of character. Does it sound elitist? Hell yeah. But it has been my unfailing experience through ten years of mudding, with no exception. The roleplay is best where every measure is taken to promote it.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

Read what I wrote again. I didn't say it doesn't promote roleplay. I said, it doesn't promote it anymore than pendeath.

You must play alot of non-fantasy muds then. Fantasy by definition is not-real, hence fantasy;). Yes, yes, you can argue flying a dragon can be real in a land of Dragon Masters, but how does a person falling from the dragon and floating to the ground any "less real" than the person falling and not "dieing forever"?

Sounds like your problem is more of a PK rule issue than a permadeath issue.

RPI=Roleplay Intense. This has nothing to do with "great roleplay" but rather, that roleplay is "intense." Meaning, lots of pk, perhaps events or story that keep a player on the proverbial "edge of your seat." It is not automatically synonomous with great roleplay, but likely more on the "killer" side or harsh roleplay vs. romantic (unless intense romance is involved :D) or more orderly established cities or areas. Though I tend to think RPE and RPI can be interchangeable depending on story, plot, and what is happening at the time in the game.

I dismiss realism in the context that you put it. By saying that ONLY permadeath is true realism would be like saying, if your game doesn't permanately kill monsters, then that isn't real. When that monster dies, by god it better stay dead! It will be a fun mud when you have 2 rabbits left to kill and only because no one found the rabbit hole in the fourth continent on the third planet. Or do they get to start again as well as a new character, maybe each rabbit has a new unique name?

Actually what I've found (and why NW only has moderate permadeath) is that most permadeath muds end up with long time pk'ers that somehow happened to not die in the first couple years and they run the show, so to speak.

That's a bold statement. What RPE mud doesn't roleplay at all times without exception. Hence the term Roleplay ENFORCED. I think you are talking about Roleplay Encouraged or Roleplay not required games.

To add to this though, I'll make the same statement I made a long time ago. If you want a true experience, turn off all distractions when you are gaming if possible. But for you to claim that someone getting a bonus for roleplaying akin to watching a movie and seeing a camera crew, I can only tell you that I agree with keeping distractions OOC to a minimum, however it is part of the game in most circumstances.

Are you saying that the games you play have zero score, health, prompt, stats, etc. If so, please tell me where you play, I'd love to see how this works. While NW keeps such things reduced, even on this roleplay enforced mud, you can see your stats as often as you like. Under your suggestions, there would be no commands at all that have anything to do with statistics about anything. Even help files would be non-existant. And you would not load any IRC's (IM, etc.), turn off the TV, your cell phone, and ignore anyone knocking on the door to be "fully immersed." Let's be a little realistic here.

Strange that you make this final statement but denounce roleplay being rewarded.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

I get the impression that you don't really know what RPI is about. If you think it's all about pk, you've either played the wrong muds or you haven't played RPIs enough to get it. Free-for-all pk is there because it has to be an option for your character when the situation arises where it's in-character to do so. As opposed to many muds where you either kill someone and they come back right away, or you simply can't kill somebody because of a set of rules.

That's just silly. Slain NPCs on roleplaying muds return because it's natural for them to do so. If you kill a young deer, and the next day there's another young deer, it's because - surprise - animals tend to reproduce. Such NPCs are disposable because they're not unique, and they return because there's not an exhaustable amount of proverbial deers in the world. And with permadeath, if you kill a character, another character is created. That's so much less jarring than the alternative, where when you kill someone they face some penalty or sacrifice and then they bounce right back in. If the NPC you want to kill is of the unique kind, where having it return after a while isn't logical, you should be able to arrange with the staff for your character to assassinate the NPC in question and they should remove/replace the NPC to reflect in-character events that affected the game world. That's part of what makes a roleplaying game: your character can affect the world in a tangible way.

On the several RPI muds where I have been an established player, this has never been a real problem. If someone is pk'ing without a valid in-character reason, and especially if they do so repeatedly over a long period of time, the staff will intervene and make sure the player either stops or is removed. Again, if that happens, it's a good indication that the game's focus is on roleplay. If it doesn't happen, I see it as the opposite.

I am talking about RPI versus RPEnforced. I have seen many RPEs where many players do not roleplay at all times. Even ones ranked top20 on TMS.

Roleplaying muds still have score, health, stats and so on. A living, breathing person has physical and mental attributes compared to others, one man isn't as strong as the next, so of course there's a way to see this. It can be kept to an acceptable minimum, and one of the RPIs that I play on has a wounds system as opposed to a hit points system, which is a very good example of where realism can be an extremely valuable roleplaying asset. There are going to be OOC commands because it's ultimately necessary, it's a text-based game after all. And on RPI muds, it's certainly not unheard of for people to turn off the TV, ignore calls and become as fully immersed as it's possible in a computer game. I'm being very realistic.

I'm not denouncing the rewarding of roleplay. I am questioning the idea of, on a roleplaying mud, rewarding somebody for roleplaying often. How is "often" good enough if roleplay is enforced? How is it good enough for rewards? If everyone on an RPI/RPE mud is not roleplaying at all times, it's because something's wrong. Usually it's either because the players are bad roleplayers, or because the game isn't good enough for them to want to roleplay at all times.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

I could go on and spam this thread with more contrary arguments to everything you say here and exampling out what you have said about NPC's, RPI, Pk, with more controversy, but I think we will just agree to disagree and save everyone's time and shorten this to one point. The point you glossed over in your last post:

I think your problem is more of a PK Rule issue than a permadeath issue.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

I play on a MUD with permdeath, and I must say it's the best experience I've ever had (and the permdeath is part of that). By permdeath, I do mean the one-strike-you're-out permanently type of permdeath. Here are the advantages of a system that utilizes well-done permdeath, as I see them:

You rarely end up with two or three top characters owning the game for everyone underneath them. The top characters tend to cycle as the ones on the top die.

Players of beloved characters tend to more seriously consider their hunting, fights, training and PKS, as there is always the possibility such will backfire and result in your own death.

Risks are actually risky, and adrenaline-inspiring.

When you kill someone, they're dead. They don't come back the next day and taunt you and cause trouble for you.

When coupled with an RPI environment and an RP-focused OOC environment (taking emphasis away from levels/skills), I really have not been able to find a higher level of immersion. Yes, I think taking away permdeath would take away the level of immersion. What is the value of a character's life, if death is meaningless?

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

All of these points can be said for any game that has risks involved. This is again, more about risks and results of action, than whether or not permadeath makes for great roleplay and immersion. Evenso, I must ask, what game do you play that the top players cycle all the time from death. I'm curious on that one? I've rarely if ever seen this.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

How often does a well established character die in a game like this? I've never played a MUD with perm-death. Or is that too general, equivalent to asking "How often does a character die in a MUD?".

When I pick up Guitar Hero or any other console game, I don't really care how my high score compares to anyone elses, I just want to enjoy playing the game. I imagine a MUD with regular perm-death would be similar to its players.

When I play a MUD or a game like Oblivion, I enjoy building up and constantly improving my character over time, finding a nice new piece of gear that's .01% better than the item its replacing but equally rare, etc .. so MUDs with player wipes/perm death don't appeal to me personally, but the idea is fascinating.

I've often had requests for a "hardcore" mode that is open PK and perm death with a separate set of hardcore rankings, but am skeptical on integrating that into an otherwise "just sometimes PK" mud...

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

Likely, quite general. Each mud and/or character could be different. On the two permdeath muds I played, the long timers never died, but most others would die alot in the first few months of play.


I find that those seeking permdeath are the same that seek "free pk", at least from what I've found when a they arrive in NW and what I've read on forums and seen, meaning that permdeath and pk seem to go hand in hand.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

I'm going to disagree and say no, it's really about the possibility of loosing the character for doing something risky and/or stupid. Sure, you can have risks and consequences in any game, with varying levels of stakes. But the stakes are never going to get as high as the possible death of the character you've invested X number of days of time into. And that's really what it comes down to, that all-or-nothing.

I play Armageddon. And I definitely didn't say all the time, I said tend. I've seen or heard of the deaths of several really powerful characters (one of which was, I believe, the most powerful in the game, but since we don't pass around a lot of OOC, I don't know how well informed I am on that), usually as a result of either people ganging up on them and getting rid of them, or as a result of plots, or as a result of stupid decisions.

I would say that four months is pretty long lived, though my lives have varied erratically. And hey, I love it. I really focus more on the character's RP than on getting gear or skilling up or anything else due to the permdeath, because the gear isn't always going to last me that long. But the stories I make are going to stick around even after my character is dead.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

Surely that should depend on the game's theme? I can think of various themes within which no-exception permadeath would actually be unrealistic - for example:

Highlander: Decapitation is the only way to die.

Mummy (WoD RPG 2nd edition version): If killed, your (two) spirits live on, and can restore your body.

Altered Carbon (novel): Your memories are stored in a spinal implant, and can be downloaded into new bodies.

In my opinion, any of the above could provide interesting themes for a roleplaying mud.

Once again I'd have to disagree on classes being inherently unrealistic - it really depends on what they represent. In fact I discussed this issue a couple of weeks ago:

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Throttle
It ultimately boils down to the game's theme. Muds that aim for complete realism and focus entirely on roleplay just won't work without full, no-exception permadeath.

Heh - you could add Time Travel to that list.
Not that we are big on Roleplay in 4D, but I always thought we had one of the better explanations for both players and mobs reappearing after death.

Our story is that the Travel Agency crew just restores you to the hour before you were killed - for a fee, of course.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

It's not as if fantasy settings with "raise dead" or whatever have to be lame insofar as their handling of death goes, either. Brust's Dragaera setting is an excellent example of having readily available, reliable resurrection that's well-integrated with the world in terms of its consequences and people's behavior.

My feeling is that a lot of the problem with standard pendeath systems is that they're fundamentally OOC and generally break the theme of the world because NPCs mostly act as though death were death, when it's not.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

Classic! I like that. Reminds me a bit of Total Recall (the Travel Agency part).

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

The true difference between RPI and any other RP game is the fact the brutal elitism you have to deal with when people play an RPI as opposed to just roleplaying and enjoying it. I've played just about every sort of game there is to play, and honestly, I enjoy most of them. As a PLAYER, I enjoy pendeath more than permadeath, as I feel permadeath is kind of a product of the old 80s video games where you get X lives (sometimes just 1), try to get as far as you can and start over. I LOVED those old 80s games, so don't get me wrong, permadeath definitely has its place.

It's not "natural" for NPCs to come back year after year in the some room over and over and over again. This is NOT happen in real life, and it's not realistic at all. Animals reproduce AS LONG as they can find a mate, live long enough to reproduce AND raise their young. Currently, our extinction rate in real life is approximately 8 species per minute. When an animal dies, it isn't just instantly replaced, so I honestly don't think any realism arguments should be made here.

I honestly don't know very many MUDs where you can "bounce" right back into any given situation over a death. You really only find that on WoW, and even then, they might bother to make you repair your gear before you can go and fight some more. I don't think it's any more realistic for a character to die as often as characters die on permadeath MUDs with as few population as there are on many permadeath muds as it is for players to be resurrected by a given deity. That's just me. Given a village of 100 people, you don't have people dropping dead every 4 months and then instantly being replaced by a new neighbor everytime someone dies. Realism really has no play in this entire discussion.

What I DO find compelling in arguments for permadeath is the challenge, the often faster advancement rates, the constant hypersensitivity to the area, the competition for status while riding that fine line between being popular and being popular enough to kill, and lastly, the forced detachment to characters and the ever invention of new characters. THAT is what is fun and exciting about permadeath systems. Honestly, I find all the arguments for permadeath = better roleplay (usually with arguments to realism) to be bogus and, more often than not, elitist.

Again, the biggest difference I see between RPIs and RP-anything else is the amount of elitism people have to deal with in order to roleplay in a game. I don't know why it is, but so many roleplayers have this need to compare themselves to other roleplayers and belittle each other's roleplaying. It even happens within a single roleplaying community let alone between different games. Personally, I like roleplay-enforced games, which includes RPIs. Other people like a more relaxed game where they can roleplay with each other but chat about real life in tells. I find that to be jarring and dislike it for myself, but I definitely don't think someone is LESS of a roleplayer than me simply because they like a different system.

MUDs are, beyond all else, games. With ANY game, you have a quantifiable system to deal with. Quantifying something with a wounds system (I have no idea what that is, so I'm not making a judgment on it) is really not that much different than quantifying something with a numerical system. In all reality, there's probably a numerical system behind the wound system. It's just a matter of how transparent it is to the player.

On MANY popular games, people will turn off the TV, ignore calls, ignore REAL LIFE in general because they are so completely engrossed in what they're doing. Heck, sometimes people do this just while they're reading or watching football. I know that an ungodly number of people do it while raiding on WoW.

Roleplaying is a matter of suspension of disbelief and community story-building. The story must resonate with you, you must be able to build your character around it, and you must be provided with a set of rules that establishes the roleplay as a game with defined mechanics rather than a sit-down-game-of-pretend. What you do with what you're given once you've found something suitable for you is a determination of how good of a roleplayer you are, NOT whether you are playing a permadeath MUD, an RPI, and RPEncouraged, an RPEnforced, an RP server on an MMO. I honestly prefer a game that encourages people who WANT to RP (whether or not they're GOOD at it) and provides opportunities for them to do so than a game that constantly judges and excludes people's RP.

I prefer pendeath because the fun for me is constant character building and risk that carries a penalty but not completely annihlation of a character I've worked on. I also enjoy permadeath on games that allow for it because it gets that "survival" thing going in me, but I honestly only prefer that in certain settings. I honestly also enjoy hack 'n' slash games as long as the mechanics are good, and the atmosphere caters to a more mature playerbase. I also think there are all sorts of RPers out there who have a lot to add to the communities they choose, and they are not better or worse than anyone else simply because they LIKE something different from someone who might play on an RPI or an RPE or an RPP or an RPX or an RPQLSEFLKSER!

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

Well then sure, I guess that makes me an elitist. And if I'm an elitist, what does that make you? Someone lacking standards? If that's how you want to see things, then I'm fine with it. So from an elitist's point of view, I'll chime in.

Let's toss realism out the window, since there ain't no such thing in a fantasy game. But, let's use that lovely crunchy term "suspension of disbelief" instead, since it's much more fitting.

The reason I play fantasy roleplaying text-based games, instead of X-Box, is several-fold. One, I like to read, and I'm not too big on graphics. Second, I want to feel as though I'm participating in a storyline while it's occurring. I don't need to be the hero, but I do need to be involved. If I'm not going to be involved, I might as well just read a book (which I do often).

So what is it about being involved? Well in a permanent death game, there's a tangable risk to my character. It is an IC risk - not an arbitrary OOC risk. Penalty points aren't IC. They're an OOC device to punish the PLAYER for having the nerve to allow their character to die. Loss of skill - again. An OOC device to set the player back - because he can just spend another 5 hours getting those skills right back and he'll be exactly where he left off before his character died.

So there's that spark of risk to the -character- that you can't get with ooc penalty devices, that attracts me to permanent death. There's also the matter of assassinations. In a game where death is permissible and coded at all, it makes sense that intentional murder would occur from time to time. But what good is it, to murder Joe Noble, if Joe Noble will just be alive again in an hour? What's the point of killing him in the first place, if he can't actually DIE?

Resurrection means - they ain't really dead. It's a pretend death, that prevents that suspension of disbelief. I don't need or want reality in my fantasy games. But I do want my experience to be believable. And - being dead, using up a few deeds, or exp points, and being alive after solving the same puzzle I solved twenty times in the last year of playing the game, is not believable. After the first twenty times of my character dying and coming back to life again, I stop feeling that "spark" that comes with a risk of death. There exists no risk of death, if death is a temporary setback to a character's immortal existence.

So for my elitist self, I'll happily stick with elitists RPGs, and let all you little people with lack of standards enjoy your happy joyful bouncy giggly smoochy empath-resurrecting games.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

"Realism" is something of a bugaboo that always brings up the same tired refrains, but I think what "realism" really means in virtual worlds is "internal consistency". The world doesn't need to resemble ours; it needs to resemble itself. It's when worlds have resurrection tacked onto behavioral and social structures that fail to acknowledge its existence that "realism" is broken.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

Well, that depends. Are you telling me that I'm LESS of a roleplayer because I enjoy a different type of game from you? I don't think I've ever seen or heard anything like that from you even if you play on an RPI until this last post. I, however, am not telling you that you are less than me for liking permadeath; you just obviously like playing something DIFFERENT than I do. I am making no judgments on you at all for the type of game you choose to play. ALL RPI players are not elitist, but most elitist roleplayers claim to play RPIs as opposed to RP<insertsneeringcommenthere>.

Someone I consider an extremely excellent roleplayer and a good friend happens to play Armageddon. She is neither elitist nor does she claim that people who play a game that does not deign to call itself an RPI are somehow lacking standards or less than she. In fact, we've played at least two games together over a period of 6-7 years. Now she builds for one game, and I build for two others.

As I said in my previous post, I can see TONS of reasons to play a permadeath game. Heck, tons of old school games have "permadeath" of type in order to add to the CHALLENGE of the game.

I have to say, though, I don't think permadeath or any kind of death is any more OOC than any other arbitrary punishment upon "death". Instead of losing some random stats, losing some gear, losing some xp, losing some whatever it it is they decide you lose, you lose a character and just roll up a new one. It's still all game mechanics no matter how you want to sugar coat it, and it's all a matter of degrees. Face it, games are inherently OOC due to the nature of their construct, but the RP comes in being able to operate within the story, add to the story, tell the story, and get others involved. Loftily decreeing that YOUR choices in how to do this is SO MUCH better than anyone else's is just plain silly. People make their choices for so many different reason. People find so many different things that appeal to them. That's the beauty of having a choice, and that's the beauty to having so many games to choose from.

I understand where you're coming from. As I said, permadeath appeals to me from time to time, but I enjoy a lot of things about gaming in general. Even more than gaming, I enjoy building, writing, and watching stories unfold. As to what is the point of killing someone in the first place if he can't die, well that depends on the game you're playing and whether or not you play with the object of killing someone. I rarely play anything involving assassinations because that type of character (one that would assassinate someone else) is not one that is very interesting to me, and politics interest me way more than PK. Thus, the PK aspects of roleplaying games interest me very little. On the other hand, I live for PvP in games that are designed around PvP and even some that are not. The joy of killing someone who can come back stems from testing my skills as a player against someone else's skills as a player. They are unpredictable, unlike NPCs, and it's even better if they can go "better" themselves and come back for a grudge match. Also, if I'm the one to lose, I want to try different tactics and see if I can come back to win. Things like this can spawn so many offshoots when allies and extra enemies get involved. Again, it's just more to the story. In too many permadeath games, you don't get another chance. It's pretty awesome when you DO get away, though, I'll give you that, because you KNOW you've literally SAVED your character. YAY!

In some other games, PvP is part of another grind. You kill for whatever points, and you level up in a different way. Doesn't thrill me much, and at that point, you're glad you're able to kill someone over and over just so you can progress. So to answer your question, I can think of TONS of reasons to kill someone who would come back.

I think I'll just remain someone with a lack of standards if, in order to be uber-roleplayer-who-loves-permadeath-as-the-only-system-ever-and-everyone-else-sucks-and-aren't-really-roleplaying (wow, what a mouthful), I have to spend a lot of time belittling everyone else's choices and ban myself from un-elite, lowly games. It allows me to experience a ton of stories, roleplayers, people, and excellent games that I might otherwise have to boycott. I call it open-mindedness and giving people props for their choices. :) I might operate from a faulty dictionary, though.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

Well, that depends. Are you telling me that I'm LESS of a roleplayer because I enjoy a different type of game from you?

Well yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. Because, I'm an elitist according to your criteria. And that's what elitists think - that everyone else is inferior. We already covered that. Read your own post, and my response to it, and try to keep up. Though I don't have much hope for you since I'm elitist, which makes you inferior, which means you have no hope of keeping up with me.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

I get the general impression that some who posted here feel insulted, on behalf of their mud, by some of the pro-permadeath posts in this thread. Also, some seem unable to grasp the concept of an opinion or personal experience, and defiantly argue against them. I've so far deliberately avoided singling out any particular muds with criticism or to point out flaws in a poster's argument, and I've done my best to avoid the inevitable elitist attitude that occurs in a discussion like this.

In the end, anyone who thinks one thing is strictly better than another will come off as an elitist. Through mudding for almost half of my life, experience has proven that certain game attributes make for a better roleplaying environment. If that makes me an elitist then I gladly accept that. I'll still stoically claim that the best roleplay in the world of muds is found in games that incorporate such measures as permadeath, character applications that require staff approval, level-free systems, short descriptions instead of names, and other similar rulesets. I've never been proven wrong by personal experience. Good roleplay can be found elsewhere, but to say that the above-mentioned examples do not increase the quality of it is ignorant, in my opinion.

Newworlds, does this boil down to the fact that you consider "your" mud to be on par with the top RPI muds in regards to the quality of roleplay in the game? If that's the case then I'd have to challenge that claim. While I think that NW is a good and innovative game, I could never consider it an RPI mud despite the fact that NW's admins claim it to be. I've never been a veteran or notably established player on NW, but I certainly have tried it. There are countless things I could point out as things that do not promote roleplay, or things that are lacking in order for the game to be considered a roleplaying intensive mud. Like I said before, I normally don't stoop to personal attacks, which I don't doubt is what you'll consider this. Still, the fact remains that NW - while an interesting and competent game - is far, far away from the RPI status that it claims to have.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

That hasn't been my experience. My pc having to face their own mortality is very different than having to face the loss of equipment or levels. It FEELS completely different.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

Daily, give or take. Just not all of them on the same day.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

To answer Lasher - Some characters live real-life years, others die within an hour of genning. It really depends on the character and his environment and if the player has read any of the recommended tips to starting game play. Things like "don't leave the city gates in your first moments, because you have no armor, no weapon, no mount, no water, and you will die." Or things like "if a guy comes up to you and starts wiggling his fingers and glowing an odd purple, you should -probably- go somewhere else, very quickly." and things like "don't kick the local law enforcement in the knees."

Usually if people take heed of the "recommended tips for new players" they have a decent chance of playing their character for a few months. If they're extra lucky, or happen to have seriously awesome RP skills, they can land themselves some cushy opportunities to RP their way into fame, fortune, and longevity. But eventually - they will die, and that's a good thing, because if everyone could move up to the top, they'd have no one under them to rule over. SOmeone has to die, so others can take their place. If we were all uber powerful it would be a very boring game with nothing much else to do besides kill each other all day.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

I think that's the best argument for permadeath that I've seen so far, and that has really nothing at all to do with RP or the quality of it.
We all want our players to stay long in the game, but as a consequence most of us also have some problems with long-time players, who get so powerful that it puts a damper on every new player's aspirations, because the old ones are just so strong that catching up to them seems an impossible task.

Permadeath takes care of that problem very nicely.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

Throttle. I doubt anyone here feels insulted by your comments, I certainly don't even when you opinionated NW. Some just don't agree with your statements and I think that makes you say things like, "...unable to grasp the concept of opinion or personal experience." Then you go on to say "I've played muds half my life, so I know." Sorry, but so have the rest of us. And you can "stoically claim" just as everyone else can.

What you believe brings the best roleplay doesn't make it fact. Just as what I believe doesn't make it fact or make the game you play worse because someone thinks that many of the features are roleplay/gameplay inhibiting. It's like some guy from a mud claiming that if you do not have a features manual setup then your game is not really playable. Some might feel that is naive position to take.

This wasn't even the purpose of the thread by Fifi who asked, "How does Permadeath alter the way you play?" Not, "My permadeath mud kicks everyone's arse in roleplay!" Start a new thread if you want to discuss that theory.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

A lot of people here have been mudding a long time, in case you hadn't noticed.

I think it's great that you know what kinds of features and design choices tend to make for a game that you enjoy and/or that encourages the kind of play/roleplay that you like. I also think it's damn near the height of arrogance to insist that only roleplay in the style that you prefer is the best roleplay, which is what you're doing. Of course you'll never be proven wrong when you're defining what roleplay means and what kind of roleplay is desirable.

I think we can all agree that none of us wants to roleplay a character sleeping eight hours a day, going to the bathroom every few hours, etc. Ultimate realism isn't a goal any of us are after, because then we'd just play life. Equally, going to the other extreme, no realism at all isn't a goal any of us are after. Where we each draw the line between those two extremes as what strikes the right balance between suspension of disbelief and fun to play is a personal choice. If you want to post and say other people are wrong for preferring something else, you might as well cut to the chase and declare that I'm a jackass because your favorite color is blue and green is obviously superior. To suggest other colors are worthy of consideration would be ignorant.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

Well except that blue and green ARE obviously superior, and if you think that any other colors are worthy of merit, then you really -are- ignorant.

Other than that I agree with Disciple. Carry on.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

This is an interesting thread. Forgive me for reviving it.



The problem I have with permadeath is that it makes me, as a player, have to invent a whole new personality that I can role-play. It's one thing to invent a character (and the "workshops" posted elsewhere on the forum are pretty cool) but it's another to create a really distinctive character that I like to play. That's the real pain with permadeath: not that I lost a bunch of skills, but that I've lost a whole personality that I've invested sweat and blood into crafting.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

If there's good input to be had, necro-post away!

I think that's what keeps me from going with perma-death as my favorite type of game to play. I really like extensive character development more than creating new characters, but I have friends that like creating new characters far more than playing them for any length of time. My preference is to be able to just spend as much time on developing a specific character as I can until I'd like to retire her, and I actually find myself being more careful with my characters because I have so much invested in them. For me, a stiff death penalty with a character that I really love causes me to work with caution on most everything I do, especially when there's extremely high political stakes.

With most permadeath games, I feel that you, as a player, are expected to go through a few characters before you figure out the "tricks" of keeping your character alive. That usually results in throw-away characters that I don't bother to invest a lot of time or thought into because pretty much anything can take her out in the first few hours or days of play. On one game, I lasted less than 45 minutes because I had the misfortune of running into a player who wanted me to do something I didn't think my character should do, and as a player, I had no interest in doing. Bam, I was dead like 10 minutes after that. This was after I'd put quite a lot of thought into my character and developing her because I'd bought into the idea that game was centered around RP, and frankly, I was upset with it because I felt like NO RP occurred than an exchange of two messages before I was slaughtered. Even being my most careful, a player could pretty much kill me on a whim and make up a roleplay reason for killing me. If I had known to make a few throw-away characters first, I might have been able to get more into it. If I had felt like the time I'd invested in the character was worth her death, it might have been worth it. Granted, I feel like it may have been bad luck for me to run into that situation right at the beginning.

So, I'm with you there. I don't want to invest a lot of time or thought into a character who could look at someone wrong and be dead a few minutes later. At the same time, I don't want to have to ignore the entire playerbase for any chance of living. I might as well be playing a single-player game then. I know that there are people who thrive on being able to "beat the odds", and I applaud them for it. I'm sure the experience is very intense, but it's not the thing I enjoy most from online, multiplayer games.

Re: How many muds have permadeath?
 

I have a few more points on Permadeath that should be noted. Though I am not a fan of 100% Permadeath, I do believe it has it's place. On NW, Permadeath is mixed with Resurrected Death. Permadeath occurs for specific reasons which you would have to find out by playing the game. All of it is roleplay related. But back to my points which are my opionion:

Point 1. Permadeath is not synonomous with roleplay. Just because you have permadeath does not make your mud an IRP Mud or even a roleplaying mud. In the basic sense, Permadeath is simply a means to say, "You lose, start over." This can also be said for Resurrected death. In the basic sense, Resurrected death simply means, "You lose a bit, start back a few paces."

Point 2. If you have Permadeath creation should be very very very simple, with only a smattering of history and background. More history and depth of character should be built down the road at various intervals. This makes permadeath more palatable and enjoyable as you grow into your character.