RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

Greetings players and administrators.

I've created this thread as another thread was being railroaded by the topic of RPI (Role Play Intensive) and RPE (Role Play Enforced/Extreme/Excellence) MUDs.

The topic revolves around the origin of RPI and RPE and why a small subset of MUD's should annex the title RPI. The original argument dates back to a 239 reply thread here:



Every month or so someone brings up another thread about RPI's and relating them to this small group. Some gamers and creators believe that this is a misuse of the term Roleplay Intensive and take offense to this small group claiming that name for their subset of MUD's.

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

The following is an excerpt written by Proph1515 that I am bringing here for critique.
Can you show evidence of this origin?
Again, there is no evidence of this origin. Most of the evidence comes from posts on TMS and at the now defunct website that has been changed since its inception. Even the website, when operational, couldn't agree to a set standard of defined terms. Hence the heated debate in the above link and following quote.
Another reason why the term is ambiguous and another should be selected. Perhaps RPG-19.
Disagreed. No evidence of this.
With so many categories why have a group. Essentially you have roleplaying games that claim they are intensive. But that is arbitrary. I could play any of them and claim they are boring, rudimentary, slow, lack anything but pk and tons of time wasted using scripts to do crafting, lack global roleplay, and destroy long term roleplay storyline through permadeath. But even so it would only be one opinion not fact. As you may or may not know, this is the reason there is so much debate over who is a good actor. It is arbitrary. Giving this group a more copyrightable name would do wonders for clarity.

No, that term is usable by ANY MUD that the players feel is Role-Play Intensive or RPI.
Every term in the above paragraph is clear and defined except RPI. Roly-Play Intensive is not and could be used by anyone as there is no standard for Intensity.
Difference. NFL is copyrighted and trademarked. It is a term for a club. A league if you will. A highschool team or college team is high school or collegiate. This is a poor example.
Never heard of this term, ever. Even so. Role-Play Oriented denotes a game that is merely oriented in roleplay but doesn't require it. Similar to RP encouraged. It was your way of saying, hey guys, nice try but you know...you're not quite there yet. Which is false egotism since there is nothing inherently great about having only skills in a game. In fact, lacking Guilds would be notoriously lacking in roleplay as you lose groups. Like making a game with all rogues. You are limited to one class instead of several. We'll get into the downfall of these types of MUD functions and how they hurt rather than help RP later though.
The problem you fail to see is that most if not all roleplay enforced MUDs and MUSHes and PK MUDs especially are severely intense.

So here we have a grand total of 5 games. 2 of which have tiny playerbases, another 2 are combat and pk oriented and finally the one that has a playerbase and isn't combat oriented still is based on borging skills and crafts and limited to Tolkien's book.

Perhaps you should keep RPI just make sure the identification is Role Play Isildur.:)

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

Spelling is incorrect. While "ph" and "f" are phonetically similar, one is not my screen name while the other is.

As has already been pointed out, there is a lack of documentation in the MUD community for just about anything aside from personal recollection. I will refer you to review a discussion over on though to get further information on the term. It is one of the few cases where the discussion of the term was ever documented though by no means is it the first or a definitive discussion.

First of all, your url is wrong. Secondly, the evidence also extends before that to discussions here and on mudlab.org. Third, the old rpimud.com never represented any systematic attempt to define RPI, just one man's loose interpretation.

The term is not ambiguous. The exact characteristics of the term were a bit ambiguous since they were never clearly defined until a couple years ago by examining the games to which the term first applied for similar characteristics which could constitute why some games were called RPI while others were not. It was simply a matter of figuring out what those games had in common that was not standard in other games of the time. By doing so, a clear definition of the term could be derived which matched its original usage.

Because despite different code origins and different codebase development, they all possess the same characteristics.

This is the root of your problem. You still apparently have a sub-par understanding of the English language. "Role-play intensive MUD" and "intense role-play MUD" do not mean the same thing. The order of the words signify to what the word "intensive" refers to. In the former term, the word is an adjective of "MUD" while in the latter it is an adjective of "role-play".

Then they, like you, would be wrong and demonstrating their ignorance. Like it or not, the term was coined for those particular types of MUDs.

Again, your ignorance of English seems to be the root of your problem.

NFL is trademarked, not copyrighted. Even if they weren't, it still functions as an example because I was pointing out that while all NFL teams are football teams, not all football teams are NFL teams. The same is true of RPIs and role-play enforced MUDs.

And you would be wrong as I coined the term and can tell you what it means and my intent. RPI does not represent any ultimate goal. It represents a particular type of game. The term RPO was coined to signify games which stand out from the 300+ role-play enforced MUDs but which are not RPI. It is an ambiguous term because these games really lack any identifying standard beyond being role-play enforced. Some have levels, some do not. Some have OOC channels, some do not. Some have permanent death, some do not. They do all however possess differences from MUDs merely with stock H&S code and a role-play required policy though these differences are by no means the same from game to game. That is why I came up with a term for them.

Apparently you don't know what a guild is. Beside that minor point, what would this have to do with the definition of anything?

And yet again the problem is that you don't understand English very well. "Intense" is subjective. Your use of the word is also irrelevant to the discussion because the term is "role-play intensive" and not "intense role-play".

How does the number of open games make any difference? To date, there have been about three dozen games which have been RPI. At present, there are 6 open (Dark Horizon's website states that they're open) and at least another 5 in development. But even if there was only one around, that wouldn't change anything as that has not always been the case.

What does playerbase size have to do with anything? No one has ever claimed RPIs were anything but a niche type of MUD. Although the two largest, Armageddon and SoI, have fairly good-sized playerbases that doesn't change anything.

Furthermore, combat and PK is not the emphasis of any of the games even if they do emphasize it as an element of their role-play. It relates to the setting they have chosen. What does Tolkien have to do with anything? These things don't relate to discussing what constitutes RPI.

Seriously, as an administrator of an ENGLISH TEXT-BASED game, you should have some understanding of the language. If English isn't your first language then my apologies for being rude. However, if it is your first language then you need to learn how the language works because that seems to be the root of your inability to comprehend things.

Take care,

Jason

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

Obviously people like the term RPI, but not so much the niche definition of it. Then again, what is the point of labeling your game RPI (just because it sounds cool) when everyone else does? I personally don't see how a mud without perma-death could call its RP environment 'intensive'.

I'd suggest coming up with a term of yourself, documenting the requirements on a webpage, and maintaining a list of muds that meet the definition.

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

That is probably the root source of the abuse of the term though I try to avoid saying it since there's always the possibility of innocent mistakes by games that just didn't know the origins of the term.

Exactly the reason coming up with yet another name for RPIs isn't worth the effort. First of all, those who have been playing RPIs for a decade or longer already use the term to identify the types of games they're looking for. Secondly, if a new term is created for what constitutes RPIs and non-RPIs decide they like that term, what's to stop them using it too just so they can capitalize on its usei and/or perceived reputation? All that does is continue to confuse the community with a repeating cycle of new acronyms for game types which already have definable terms.

Over at the . Admittedly RPO is rather vague. One game may have features A and B while another may have A and C while yet another has B and C. Short of dozens of terms applying to single games, we just use RPO as a catch-all for any game that isn't RPI but doesn't just feature a role-play enforced policy alone.

These terms are not any measure of quality, just categories for identifying shared features. One can go through and probably divide these categories into multiple sub-categories. RPIs could probably be sub-categorized as Armageddon-type, Harshlands/SoI-type and Southlands-type after the three modified code lineages they represent. I imagine RPEs could probably be divided much the same based on the stock MUD designations from which they are created. However, in the case of RPOs it'll probably result in dozens of sub-categories consisting of one, maybe two at best, games each. That's the reason for the catch-all term RPO.

Take care,

Jason

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

Other muds are just jealous that RPI's get all the glory. Most muds, even if they use the word "roleplaying" in it means nothing to me. There is a whole genre that uses that word (RPG anyone) that has nothing to do with roleplaying but is simply hack and slash video games. The same applies online. People use the word frivolously.

role-play
  /ˈroʊlˌpleɪ/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [rohl-pley] Show IPA
–verb (used with object)
1. to assume the attitudes, actions, and discourse of (another), esp. in a make-believe situation in an effort to understand a differing point of view or social interaction: Management trainees were given a chance to role-play labor negotiators.
2. to experiment with or experience (a situation or viewpoint) by playing a role: trainees role-playing management positions.
–verb (used without object)
3. to engage in role-playing.


I think the first one hits home with me. In many games that claim roleplay they aren't defining it correctly. The players simply play the game. On world of warcraft there isn't any roleplaying because you're just being yourself. You don't have to worry about anything.. it's almost like chat-room roleplay. You can do whatever you want that you the player desire.

You're playing yourself, not assuming a role. This is also true at RPI's though. There are plenty of players at RPI's that simply play the same thing over and over, and really they're just playing the game as themselves the player. Satisfying their own out-of-character desires over that of a true character.

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

If no one minds, I think I'll let Maddox speak for me on this topic, since I ALWAYS think of this article when I see the WHAT IS AN RPI/RPANUS threads pop up:



I figure that the crowd of, ah, posers, for lack of a better term, just want the association of 'elite' RP or whatever you want to call it, so they've snatched at the moniker to feel better. But anything more than a brief look will show you the shoddy paintjob, cheap rims, and less-than-intensive RP.

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

You claim to be some expert roleplayer, but you take a "brief look" at a MUD and make a determination? Please. A brief look at your own MUD wouldn't even get your character approved. Yeah, great intense RP. Oh by they way, better check with Prof1515, it's not intense RP it is role-play intensive. Get it right!

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

Okay Professor (I use this term because of your anal attitude about your handle and your proclivity to focus on English language understanding rather than key points of discussion),

Let's try to break this down into simple terms to see if my limited understanding of English can comprehend you properly:

1. You want the sole use of the term RPI for games you feel follow your 19 subsets of Role-Play INTENSIVE standards.
Unlikely this will ever happen despite your monthly posts about it RPI and who is RPI.

2. You want the sole use of this term even though you admit that the specific website of this term was only one man's interpretation?
Odd that.

3. Any game can be role-play intensive but only your subset is allowed to be called RPI because you claim this term was coined by your group several years ago.
Similar to saying that any game can be called a MUD, but only games played with the GMUD client are true MUDs. Laughable at best.

4. You make the claim that I do not understand the use of the English language and in the same paragraph you drop a preposition at the end of a sentence.
Listen pal, if you want to critique another on language understanding, you might want to take a writing class first. Here's the sample sentence and the correction for your edification: "The order of the words signify to what the word "intensive" refers to." should be "The order of the words signify to what intensive refers." You're welcome.:)

5. You still claim and maintain that the term RPI was coined for these games.
I suppose you can claim that they are the only MUDs in existence and it still doesn't make it fact, now does it?

6. You claim that RPI does not mean an ultimate goal, it only means a specific type of game.
I don't buy this. If it only meant a specific type of game you wouldn't care what the acronym was, yet you bite down on this like a dog on a steak. You want the term associated with intensive as if no other game is intensive. At least be honest about it Professor. I was honest when I said that I do not agree with your concept of intensive and nothing in your 19 points of RPI defines roleplay intensive any more than opposing points which I will give in a follow on post. I am honest when I say that I and others take offense to your narrow view on role-play and the meaning of good role-play and what defines good role-play.

7. You claim that I do not know what a Guild is?
Can you be any more ignorant? Seriously, you promote games that do not even have guilds and you are now the definition on guilds? Get real.

8. You disagreed with my argument on the number of games making a difference.
This is one point I will give you. It shouldn't make a difference even if there was one game. The problem exists that a singular game or couple of games in the genre of roleplaying intensive games won't be able to have the buying power to annex the term RPI. Take Iron Realms games for example. The would likely have an acronym like IRMUD. Which is a decent acronym for their subset. If they, however, said that from now on if you do not have the 25 features of Iron Realms MUDs you cannot use the term RPMUD, I would have a problem with that as well. Can you understand this concept or are you still fixated on whether or not I understand the English language?

There is a lot more I could detail about your post, but for now this should give you ample information to argue about.

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

A log from New Worlds

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

A log from arm.

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

Those two logs prove the difference between an RPI mud and a non-RPI mud. ;)

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

I find it odd that a roleplay game like Armeggedon still uses the antiquated think command. Think is an emote that is only useful to the character typing it as no one but a psion or mindreader would be able to roleplay off of it.

But that is beside the point. Here is the point:

A log from Armeggedon:

A log from New Worlds:
These two logs show the difference between an Arm MUD and a non Arm MUD. ;)

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

Besides the jealousy thing at the beginning I agree with most of this.

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

Why is your Arm log so strained together. You should have spaced in between the sentences and stuff. Eh. Whatever.

I fail to see your point though with the two logs. The system armageddon uses is far better for storytelling and roleplaying. That much is obvious to anybody reading any of the two logs.

By comparison I mean this:

and this:

Anybody can go look at each sites logs. Also that website is the OLD logs for arm from years ago. The new one is somewhere else on the site and is a bit more user friendly.

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

It was cut and pasted as is as was the NW Log. Likely I could have hand detailed both and spaced them out, but that wasn't the point.

The link you gave is an ancient link from early BETA of NW. That link isn't even active for most people as it was linked to a seperate player's log system and should be replaced with something more updated.

What is more important here Delerak is that both logs do not represent true gameplay in either game. In order to know a game you must play it and play it for some time as shown in the thread:

Without spending a good amount of time in a MUD to get to know the system, players, and staff, it is hard to make a true analysis of the quality of the MUD.

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

They're not my standards, they're shared traits of the games to which the term was first applied. Amongst all of the various combinations of features and policies a small group was branded RPI. In trying to figure out what traits they had in common in order to identify the meaning of the term, a comparison of these games revealed 19 similiarities. It's not my list, my standards or anything of the kind. It is a list of the similiarities shared by the different games first called RPI.

Whether it happens or not is a matter of the ignorance of some and the idiocy of others. The ignorant can be tolerated and educated. The idiots who simply refuse because they're jealous, insecure or just plain stupid will always be a problem. But that doesn't mean the community has to accept them.

That site was started in late 2004. The term RPI predates it by half a decade. When Wade chose that name for his site he wasn't fully aware of the abuse the term had undergone. I'm not even sure he knew just how diverse the role-play MUD community had become and how varied the use of the term "role-play" was. By the definition of some people, Pac-Man or Pong is a role-playing game.

The term was coined with a specific meaning. It's akin to someone calling base-Diku a first-person-shooter or FPS. It's not because the term was invented for a specific type of game which base-Diku is not no matter how much someone wants to claim it is.

Role-Playing Intensive is an adjective used before the word game or MUD. Just as a rose-red flower is different from a red, rose flower. The latter refers to a rose but the former does not. It might be a carnation. Likewise, Role-Play Intensive has nothing to do with "intense role-play" (a subjective term in itself since one man's intense experience may be another man's mundane). There's a distinct difference between sloppy writing on-the-fly and a repeated demonstration of an inability to discern how the English language functions. I should proofread more. You should take remedial English.

The first games to which the term was applied were Armageddon and Harshlands. Over time more and more games began to use the term.

It is a term that the RPI community created and use to identify similar games. When every game type from RPE to H&S use the term, it makes it impossible to use. Coming up with a new term doesn't solve the problem since it's not like we have some congress every year where every RPI player attends to learn terminology. Some would still search for the term RPI because they know that the games they prefer to play were called RPI. Additionally, if a new term is invented, what's to keep every other type of game from co-opting that as well?

The screen name is prof1515. Why do you have such a difficult time with that? Your repeated issues with it suggests a disdain for education and feelings of anti-intellectualism. Get over it. My screen name is prof1515, not proph1515 or professor.

My view on role-play has nothing to do with the term. As for "what defines good role-play", quality is a subjective distinction and has nothing to do with whether a game is RPI or RPE.

A guild is an association of people with similar interests or experience, specifically a Medieval association of craftsmen or merchants. In the context of MUDs, guilds are often used to denote associations of characters. I have yet to find any RPI which does not have groups akin to the latter definition and many have groups similar to the historic definition.

So either you don't know what a guild is or you don't know anything about RPIs. Most likely the answer is yes to both.

There was no use of the term "role-playing intensive games" prior to its use to distinguish RPIs from other role-play MUDs. Back in the 90s the term "role-playing intensive" wasn't used. Most MUDs didn't make a big thing out of role-play on their games like they do today. It was just a given that there was role-play alongside H&S and/or PvP. The RPIs did not feature H&S, removed H&S systems like leveling and experience points, and concentrated only on role-play. Their take on role-play features and policies was different than other MUDs and their players tended to prefer that style. To distinguish similar games from dissimilar ones, they used the term Role-Play(ing) Intensive or RPI. With the plethora of other terms to denote games where role-playing is emphasized (be it role-play enforced, role-play mandatory, role-play focused, etc.) that term allowed players of the RPIs to identify the games that they wanted to play.

Role-playing MUD and RPMUD are terms which have been in PRIOR use. Role-Play Intensive and RPI were not in general use over a decade ago when the term was created. Now, if someone complained that Iron Realms used IRMUD, that would be similar to the problem faced with the term RPI. It's a term that wasn't in general use and therefore is open for adoption to identify a particular type of game.

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

Think reveals a character's motivations rather than their actions. A politician may smile and say, "How are you?" while thinking, "I hate this asshole." The think command allows the player to demonstrate that difference and aspect of the character's personality.

With the RPIs, the goal is to play the character as realistically as possible, in essense becoming the character in every regard within the game, not to play it just so others can see it and react.

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

I won't even respond to the tripe you just spewed in that horrific last post that you made into one large quote. Not only do you fail to impress with your duplicated unsubstatiated arguments, you can't even format them properly. You also cannot seem to discuss a point without bringing in personal attacks. It's a wonder anyone reads anything you write on your supposed RPI website.

If you truly wanted to gain steps in your goal of RPI control, you'd step down as a spokesperson. You are like dog trying to sell catfood.

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

RPI, RPG, RPWhatever. Revealing hidden motivations as a think command is completely unrealistic. Hidden thoughts should be shown by action, spoken word, and poses, not by thoughts shouted outloud. Using this method is similar to walking around with a LEVEL 50 stamped on your character's forehead. Think should never be used in a roleplay environment unless the game has methods of thoughts being heard by ability or powers.

In your example you would have the politician holding a sign above his head with his thoughts on it.

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

For personal attacks: see your comments in numerous above posts

The RPMUD Network is not "my" site. I just pay the bills. Operation of the site as well as approval of content is determined by a committee presently consisting of 7 members. Sometimes we all agree on things, sometimes we don't. Sometimes I'm on the side of the prevailing position, sometimes I'm not (in fact, I've been on the dissenting side in 3 of the last 6 discussions).

Nor is the RPMUD Network solely for RPIs. When completed it will encompass all RP-enforced MUDs, MUSHes, etc. The site's emphasis will be focused on the players' perspective by providing independent third-party collected data and critical review and analysis. There might be some other features as well but the Operating Committee is presently having schedule conflicts which have prevented us from meeting for almost two months now. Finding a new time for our meetings is proving difficult at the present time and hopefully will be easier later in the year. It's putting us behind schedule but at this point there's little else we can do.

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

Your post reveals your ignorance. Other players can't see your think command. Only you can see what you think using the command. This command is merely there for your own expression of your character's thoughts.

If you'd ever played any RPI perhaps you'd know this.

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

Then my original post still stands true. If no one else sees it what is the point of the roleplaying command. Most MUDs don't let you talk, whisper, or attack yourself for this same reason that it is pointless. Are you saying these are also a requirement for your game as well?

The entire point of multi player roleplaying is interaction or didn't you know that?

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

Also, staff most likely have a channel where they can see active thinks and they are most likely logged as well. It proves exemplary roleplay and helps imms understand why you're doing something.

Immortal wonders why the hell player A is sneaking around in the criminal underworld.

Player A thinks: "I better get this contract for the assassination or my boss is going to rip me apart"

Immortal goes.. ooohh. Okay.

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

Why am I not suprised by this.

Again your illusion of fact. I seriously doubt any true roleplaying MUDs will want to associate with your network, hence ALL is a bit of a stretch, no?

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

Now that is a really good reason for the think command and I have played a MUD with this feature (for staff bonuses, interaction, or notice). I had forgotten about that one, Delerak.

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

This isn't a matter of wanting to do anything. Games do not list themselves. Our staff is collecting a list and data on each game. This way we hope to avoid the inevitable exagerrations and outright lies that many games incorporate into their listings on sites like TMS and TMC.

As for the word "true", I don't even care to ask what your definition is.

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

I'm glad "your" staff is collecting the data and avoiding exagerrations. I just realised that you aren't a professor Prof1515, you're a comedian. That's like the Democrats writing a report on the Republican Convention. Completely unbiased. Riiiiight.

Of course you don't care to ask anyone's definition of true for truth to you only comes from you, according to you, and substatiated by....yes, once again...you.

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

Well they're not my staff since I don't have any control over them. I can't hire or fire them if I don't like what they do, say, think or feel. They're representative of many types of RP MU* experience. All data will be reviewed by the Committee and any reviews will be conducted by at least two members of the Committee to ensure that it's not just one perspective.

Bias is always present. The difference comes from having the maturity to recognize your bias and rely upon facts and observations rather than opinion alone. Again, that's why there's a committee of multiple members. This helps provide multiple perspectives and identify unreasonable bias.

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

And will you ever be admitting to what your goal in funding this project is? And please don't think us naive enough to believe you are doing it out of your unselfish love for the MUD community, you might make us throw up.

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

Wade was going to just let the old rpimud.com site shut down so I offered to continue paying the cost (it only costs me $84 a year and that total may actually go down considerably depending on the decisions of some upcoming discussions by the Operating Committee). As I am a polarizing figure, I did not want the site to come under claims of "bias" so I decided I would not run the site alone. I asked a number of prominent members of the site as well as members of Wade's existing team if they'd like to come on in the form of a committee to manage the site. Some didn't reply, some didn't have the time. Over time, some of the others found that they no longer had time due to other projects, life, etc. From the original four people on the committee, I'm the only one left. However, as each left, others came forward interested in volunteering to help. In 2008, with a total of five us, we established a formal charter organizing the site administration in the form of the Operating Committee with detailed protocols as to how we'd operate the site. This was done so that there was a clear, standardized operation of the site without preferential treatment for any particular game or type of game. To that end, we also changed the name from The RPIMUD Network to The RPMUD Network in order to be more inclusive, as the focus of the site was any role-play enforced game, not just RPIs. The Charter also established that there would be three seats, voted upon by the games who chose to participate. As we were starting out, we confined balloting last year to only those sites that were already listed on the old rpimud.com site. Hopefully we'll have contact information for all 300+ RPEs in time to send out the ballots this year.

And for the record, I'm happy to discontinue paying the costs if others would step up to volunteer the funding. As thus far no one has, I've been left with no alternative but to continue paying even though it is a drain on my wallet of money that I'd love to spend elsewhere.

You keep attributing ideas, motives and even words to me that I don't use. Maybe you're a selfish, deceitful person but not everyone is. Puke all you want; some day you'll realize it's your own distasteful qualities that you're coughing up.

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

Where in Warhound's post did he claim to be an "expert roleplayer"? Quit attributing things to people that they didn't say just so you can foam at the mouth about them.

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

You guys totally need to have a death match.

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

Perhaps you just need to actually read and answer a question rather than going off on tangents like some cheap politician. In all that hogwash you never answered the basic question. Read it again and perhaps, try again. I know it is difficult when you are only thinking of deceit, selfishness, and distasteful qualities, but I think you can do it, I believe in you!

I also loved your comment on how polarizing you are. Oh the comedy.

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

Hypocrit much? I love this: Where in my posts did I emote or say I was foaming at the mouth. Prof your hypocrisy is classic, but since you need a "history" lesson on his post I'll give it to you.

What you meant by "foaming at the mouth" was that my posts "sounded like" or "read like" I was foaming at the mouth in anger, et al. I get that, apparently you didn't.

Let's take a look at Warhound's comment:
He is referring to his game and other games like his as lacking Elite RP. Elite/expert. Not too hard to wrap your mind around.

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

Elitism exists. So what? It only exists because it's true. Depending on your definition of elite-level roleplay. It depends on your perspective of what that is. For you and the players of New Worlds the very act of roleplaying itself could be something different than what those at RPI's such as Arm, SOI consider to be roleplaying. So being able to define the very highest caliber of roleplaying for each mud is kind of difficult if both muds consider roleplaying itself not to have a common ground. Which is just silly.

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

Well put, I agree with this.

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

Its such a shame that a small / shrinking community spends so much time playing one upmanship and engaging in arguments over semantics instead of trying to strengthen the community and keeping these arguments to private posts.

Anyone taking a small dip into the world of muds and finding this site is not going to stay long with some of the attitudes on display.

Just my two pence worth as I am tired of my 'every other day; visits to the mudding world ends up in reading the same old tired arguments instead of potentially getting excited by new developments / ideas / worlds.

By the way, I am a player, not a developer. I am not also aiming this post ant any speicifc person on these threads.

and as I see it *staying on topic) as a PLAYER

RPI - When you play the game you are in character ALWAYS.. with limited channels for OOC communication which can be switched off for immersive play. Any out of character communication is strictly forbbiden when in the game arena. Examples Threshold, Armageddon. I tend to steer clear of this kind of game now as people tend to lose the grip between their real selves and personaes when engaging in OOC chat.

RP - Every other game where you create an avatar and play that person. Doesnt matter what you do / say in the game, you just take a role and start playing.. maybe you act, maybe you dont. I would put something like Gemstone in this bracket.. some people do the 'acting' but will quite happily discuss game mechanics as well.. nice and relaxed and you never get so immersed you forget its a game.

Why be more complex than that? All MUD:s are effectivly Role PLaying games as far as I can tell.

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

Personal preference.

Your post doesn't really read very educated either as you listed Threshold as an RPI. It clearly is not. There are more aspects that make a mud RPI rather then just staying in-character at all times. The most prominent being permanent death, and an realistic world design.

People can play what they want, but every mud is going to be proud of itself. That's just the norme. People get fanatic over one game a lot. I think it's stupid, but it happens and always will happen. You will have players that are obsessed over one mud and that's it. So they will fight tooth and nail for their point of views and opinions to be the correct ones.

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

A log from GW2:

Think I could pass it off as an RPI? ;)

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

Very true. It does look childish and petty to a new reader.

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

I did answer the question but you don't want to accept my motives as your immediate comment following your question indicated. My motives for paying for the hosting were simply to keep the site running since Wade no longer wished to run it. Plain and simple as that.

I don't deny that some people don't like me. It's a fact. It's also a fact that some people do like me. I don't lose sleep one way or the other. Most people who know me like me and the ones that don't typically aren't people I like either. I do tend to get along with a wide variety of people with notable exceptions being extreme religious fundamentalists, racists, sexists, homophobes, liars, thieves, rapists, sex offenders, murderers and (unjustifiably) egotistical, ignorant morons. Take your pick which of these applies to you.

And there you go again assuming you know what other people say and mean. I did not mean that you "sounded like" or "read like" you were angry, I meant you went off making irrational claims and assumptions. I can't possibly know if you're angry. You may be smiling and calmly sipping a cup of coffee for all I know.

He neither said nor implied that he or his game possessed "'elite' RP", he referred to other games as desiring the association. That's not calling himself an expert. The only person to draw that conclusion was you. See the above comment about your assumptions.

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

Well, there's more wrong with the community than simply public disagreements. The root of the problem really seems to be an excess of competition without a similar degree of ethics as well as a lack of any real community organization or standards. A simple check of merely a handful of games in the listings typically reveals one or more that lie about their features or playerbase size. Then you've got Locke showing up every few months and claiming he invented OLC, YouTube and probably oxygen as well. You've got games arguing their own personal definitions of everything to justify calling themselves "free" or "RPI" because they think it'll bring in more players or that they're simply entitled to do so. You've got a community where people view clicking a voting link as some measure of quality but kick and scream in opposition to the thought of peer-based review. You've got a community where every game wants to call themselves "the best" but under no circumstances do they want to put that claim to the test of comparative analysis. You've got a community that doesn't want to hold liars and thieves accountable for their actions whether it's falsifying their playerbase figures or lying about their features or violating code licenses. Is a public argument any worse than all of that?

I for one am sick of it. My breaking point was many years ago after years of numerous incidents. One time I came across a game that called itself RPI and as I enjoy playing RPIs, take an interest in the history and status of the RPI community and have spent the last decade playing or creating them, I checked it out. Simply put, the game wasn't even close to being RPI. Jesus, it was stock right down to Midgaard and the beastly fidos. They claimed they were RPI and that I had to RP and yet I spawned without any clothes in Midgaard with the beastly fidos chewing up abandoned swords and corpses. Role-play as what, a nudist in a stock-code world?

About that same time I was going through TMC's listings of "level-less MUDs" and logged into one only to find it was filled with levels. A bit annoyed to have wasted my time on a game that wasn't listed properly, I informed their staff of the error. They argued that they were "level-less". I pointed to the fact that according to the score command, I was a level x this and a level y that. "We ignore those," was his reply. I pointed out that I couldn't use a particular weapon though because I wasn't to level z so it was clear that the levels couldn't just be ignored. Yeah, silence from them on that one.

In late 2006 I was working on several reviews for Wade's rpimud.com and one of the things I did was document playerbase activity. With one game, I found that while they claimed that they typically averaged 10-20 players online, only twice in the 2-3 week period I evaluated them did they have more than 10 on (and even then it was only 11 and 13). The other 99% of the time they averaged between 2-3 (or 1-2 if you excluded me). For about a third of the day I was the only player on the game. Under no circumstances is that an average of 10-20 players. And thanks to the fact that their code revealed their "most users online" via the "who" command, I knew that the most they'd ever had was 15 about a month or two earlier suggesting it's very unlikely they were averaging 10 or more prior to the period of my evaluation.

Over on the old rpimud.com there were H&S and pure PK MUDs that occassionally listed themselves. The question of whether they were RPI or not aside, they weren't even Role-Play MUDs. Hell, the last one I deleted from the listings said on their website that they weren't a role-playing MUD, simply "a pure PK MUD". Nevertheless, they chose to list themselves on rpimud.com anyway. And don't get me started on the vote tampering that occurred with the old rpimud.com clicky voting. Aside from games exploiting loopholes in the vote code (possibly accidental exploitation), we had people deliberately creating multiple accounts to circumvent the one-vote-per-person policy. A few months ago I accidently discovered that one of the vote cheaters was an admin on a game whose owner swore up and down for weeks that no one on his game would ever, ever cheat and if they did he would have known (we were fairly certain someone from their game was cheating since deletion of the bogus multiple accounts had an impact on numerous games' vote totals the following week, including theirs). Lies, exaggerations, cheating...it's wasn't confined merely to that site. It's symptomatic across the MU* community.

WoW doesn't claim that they're a first-person shooter. Halo doesn't claim that they have 62 billion players. But left and right, MU*s make outrageous claims and present false information. Why? Because this community doesn't hold them accountable and thus they can. Sometimes it's because the people here are lazy, sometimes it's because they're apathetic, sometimes it's because they're lying about their own games too. Whatever the reason, they do little or nothing and that is far, far more damaging to this community than anything else. Personally though, I refuse to be one of those people.

I will point out errors, exagerrations and outright lies. I will correct people when they use incorrect terms and I will call people out when they deliberately attempt to mislead. It's who I am. When someone calls a dolphin a fish or a spider an insect, I correct them. When someone points to a chimpanzee and says, "monkey" I explain the difference. When someone lies, I call them on it. I realize that doesn't make me popular with some people. I almost got kicked out of college when a crooked administrator that I was publicly exposing as such tried to claim an accident, one I reported myself, was deliberate as well as exagerrate the damage in the hopes of getting me expelled (fortunately I documented the details of the incident and was able to prove I had not meant to do it as well as refute his exaggerations as to the extent of the damage). Despite the incident, I did not stop pointing out his shady behavior (or that of his superiors). Last summer when I was preparing for my departure to Europe, an employee of the hotel I was staying at mentioned something that sounded a lot like human trafficking, I got as many details as I could and called the FBI. I never met the girl in question or the couple that "bought her" and I've never been back to that hotel so it has never had any impact on me since but I'm not the type of person that doesn't act when I hear of something which just doesn't add up. If that makes me a jerk, that's something I'll take as a compliment.

My attitude is that if MUD owners want to attract more players, build a game that players will want to play. If they don't like what you've built, change your game to suit their needs, don't simply claim it's something else. If you're happy with your game the way it is then learn to accept the number of people that are interested in it. Don't exaggerate your playerbase figures, don't lie about your features, don't call yourself "RPI" or "free" or anything else unless you really are. If visitors to this site come in and see discontent, it's because there's cause for discontent and maybe the community needs to do something about the source of that discontent rather than complaining about the disagreements that result because of it.

So yes, I'm going to point out misuse of the term RPI. There's plenty of other terms for role-play MU*s that don't have a distinct historical reference to a particular type of game. I don't care if MUDs like the sound of it or feel they can call themselves anything they want. For players who have used that term since its creation to identify the type of game they play and prefer the use of the term, whether as a result of ignorance or deliberate deceit, it is an inconvenience and a disservice.

There's a helluva lot more for this community to be embarassed about than disagreements on the forums.

Later,

Jason

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

Is this cat really worth responding to?

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

The problem with Prof1515 is that he is the biggest offender of everything he finds atrocious about others..

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

I have never called my little game "the best" or even "one of the best". It is what it is, a hobby, a labor of love, and a continuing text-art project.

While this comment from you may have just been hyperbole ("every game"), the fact that it was incorrect needed to be pointed out. I actually find myself in agreement with you on a number of points, so please do not take this as an attack.

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

There isn't a MUD out there that I know of, a public one actively seeking players anyway, that doesn't try to somehow plug their mud as having some of the best of _____. You see it in mud advertisements all the time. I'm sure there are muds that don't advertise or care, but those aren't exactly a part of the mud community then. They are just hobbies as you say. Most people take their mud as much more than a hobby.

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

Glad to enlighten you. Now you know of one.
:)

We don't advertise much beyond listings, and the occasional "you could give us a try" if I feel that the seeker may find something at our game that they have posted. Players have posted reviews from time to time, but I am not sure I would count that as the game advertising itself.

I can say "I care", and perhaps even venture "we care" (though I do not want to speak for other staff members feelings).

Do we qualify for one of these fancy "mud community" cards?

For being just a "hobby", it does take up 30+ hours a week. Thank the flying spaghetti monster for coffee and insomnia (maybe there is a link...?).

What do you mean by "much more then a hobby"? Can you elaborate?

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

It becomes a project. You're putting in 30+ hours a week which is akin to a job in my opinion. Which is fine. But if you don't have strong feelings about your mud I would call you a liar. You must be passionate else you wouldn't be spending so much time on it. In that regard (not necessarily you), people will tout their muds and when they advertise they make claims that are unrealistic and simply not true.

For instance, having the best pk mud or best roleplay is an all too common adage in the slew of muds that are out there. I doubt such a thing exists, much like trying to find the best cheesecake. Everybody likes different things so the aspects of something change per person. Unfortunately in advertisements things aren't moderated and people are allowed to claim that you can MUD with the president if you want. If advertisements were forced only to stick to facts rather than opinions you wouldn't have the issue that Prof was describing.

Re: RPI, RPE, and Roleplay
 

Please elaborate with some proof of this statement. I find it curious you'd think that since I don't hype my game (in fact, I doubt many people here are even aware of its name), have never exaggerated playerbase statistics or features of a MUD, do not twist the definition of words to mean something else or any of the other behavior I find distasteful. I try to live my life as honestly as I possibly can, even to a fault at times (I once lost a scholarship in college by pointing out that I may not qualify for it for a five-day period and that aforementioned corrupt administrator jumped on the chance to check and deny it to me; if I'd simply remained quiet, in 5 more days I'd have regained my qualification and no one would have known except me). When the time comes to list my game, it will be listed according to its actual features and details, not in broad terms or in every category possible just to attract players. In fact, our staff agreed long ago that we'd focus on a particular type of player and would have no problem with a small playerbase if it meant that other types of players weren't interested. So please explain your statement unless it's just random libel.

Consider it "nearly every game" then. ;) No offense taken.

Jason