I just wanted to say that it's nice to see TMS growing with the addition of another major MUD - Medievia - to the list. The bigger MUDs bring a comparatively large # of users to the site via the voting mechanism, benefiting everyone.

Welcome!

--matt

Congrats on starting another flame thread, Matt. WTG.

Oh **** off.

It's called "Professional courtesy." The only people who will object are the ones that lack it.

--matt

Thanks for the warm welcome Matt.  We are very grateful to have the opportunity to once again be a part of Topmudsites.

We are back and spanning our "advertising" due to the release of Medievia V.  We will be posting on the promotion forums soon enough as soon as we are out of beta testing and the features are live full time!

Soleil

Professional courtesy? My ass.

Medievia has been banned from the list, and for good reasons. Now that they've crawled back through the window, making a welcome post is asking for a flame war. No wonder most people here think you're an awful troll.

Good stuff. Hope it all goes well!
--matt

Coming from the person who once tried to collect money to sue Medievia, I find it extremely two-faced, and completely unsurprising.

"Professional courtesy"? Yes, I can see you've got a lot in common.

I realize the concept of evolving your opinion over time is foreign to you, but don't tar me with that brush. I based that proposed action on your own opinions, which was a mistake and for which I have already apologized and recanted.

--matt

Where?  Cite, please.  The last time I've seen you post on this matter, all you said was "There seems no doubt that Medievia is violating the license. They may or may not be violating the profit part of the license (we have no way of knowing whether they are showing a profit or not) but they certainly do seem to be violating the bits involving proper credit."

Are you saying you no longer believe they don't give credit?

Since when is that statement even remotely professional? If you were professional, you would extend that professionalism to everything and every contact you make in the community. I personally have no objection to your welcome but you are not qualified to judge professionalism judging by your statement.

Professional courtesy would include not stealing. Medievia has earned the contempt they have received, and will continue to receive.

In any event, having the_logos explain professional courtesy is like having R. Kelly explain dating etiquette.

Professional courtesy gets extended to those who act like professionals, not bitter kids. I'm not interested in extending it to the handful of TMS people who do nothing but flame others. Look at the content of the post that started this thread. It was a genuine welcome to a major text MUD. That some felt the need to attack me for posting it is, in and of itself, indicative of the fact that "professional" doesn't apply to said people.

Anyway, once again, welcome, Medievia, and take comfort in the fact that your detractors are both irrelevant and impotent to do -anything- but gnash their teeth and stomp their feet. And props to Synozeer as well, for ignoring those who will complain about him doing the right thing by allowing Medievia back on the list.

Nothing else to say on this matter really.

--matt

The original post was a blatent attempt at starting yet another flame war - something the majority of your posts seem to be aimed towards causing.

Or are you honestly claiming to be so naive that you didn't know exactly what sort of response you'd get for welcoming the mud which is used as the example in almost every discussion about licence violation - a mud which caused so many flame wars that it eventually resulted in people putting together webpages with the facts to stop people repeating the same arguments every 6 months - a mud that even you admit is violating the Diku licence?

So you think violating contractual obligations is a professional act? Amazing.

Of course I knew you and your ilk would start flaming for it. But so what? Why should I let a handful of angry people determine what I will and will not do when none of those people matter or have even an iota of power to change my course (or Medievia's course, for that matter) of action?

I mean, if Batmud (another major mud) suddenly started participating in the rankings, I'd have posted a similar congratulations, regardless of whether they were abusing IP or not (they had a Little Mermaid area there when I last played, for instance). TMS has lots of MUDs that are engaging in various IP violations and there's no policy on TMS that prohibits those MUDs from being listed.

If someone threw a hissy fit everytime someone mentioned object oriented code, what would be the reasonable course of action? To ignore the people throwing a hissy fit and talk about it anyway, or to let the fit-throwers implicitly censor what gets talked about just because they scream and whine a lot? The right answer, incidentally, is the former.

--matt

Good luck Medievia!

Well, I'll tell you what ISN'T a professional act, at least: slandering people with absolutely no evidence beyond hearsay.

--matt

Ok, I'm not fully aware of the story behind Medievia, so if anyone wants to message it to me that would be appreciated.

What I do know is they've been around for like 14 years and DiKu is maybe 10% or less of their code at this point, and no one has done anything legally against them. So I'm really not seeing what the big deal is.

It's kinda like this:

You open a new fast food restaurant. You used to be the burger flipper for McDonald's, and as such, had all the exact recipes for each piece of food made, including their secret special sauce.

You also went to their burger flipping school and now know the secrets to their successful marketing strategies.

So you open up your new restaurant, rename everything using the same recipes..add a pinch of salt to everything, and call it "unique." Then you use the McDonald's strategies, rewriting each sentence by adding a single extra comma, and call it trademarked information.

And nowhere..not anywhere at all - do you even mention that McDonalds was the source of your genius.

Legal or not, it's unethical, unpleasant, and causes all the OTHER fast food joints to hire only family members, who have to recite a vow of secrecy upon penalty of death if they get caught giving the secret info to outsiders. The entire fast food industry suffers as a result, because no one is sharing information, no one is networking to improve customer service, or marketing, or quality of food.

This is what Medievia has done to the mud community. Because of them, several people who've developed new code bases have refused to make them open source, as has been the custom in the past. There are many new code bases, some of which are innovative and can do wonders for the community, but because Medievia used DIKU without its developers permission, without giving the developers credit, and then profited off it - clearly against the license they agreed to abide by, no one wants to trust the public to their own code bases anymore.

With good reason too. The world beyond the mud community doesn't really understand about muds enough to handle a court situation. Not to mention that DIKU was developed in one part of the world and the violator is in another part of the world, so the logistics involved in a lawsuit are pretty much - unviable.

So Medievia gets to continue doing what they're doing, and the entire community gets to continue suffering as a result. Using "only" 10% of the code is like saying a 2-month-pregnant woman is only 2/9 pregnant. You can't "slightly" steal something. Either you stole it or you didn't. Medievia did. Period.

You are just as aware as everyone else on the [1] surrounding their violations. We know you have a short fuse, but I doubt even you would be pushed to sue based on hearsay. Your attempt to paint their actions as "professional" is an extreme insult to real professionals everywhere.

[1]

Slander is spoken - libel is written, and doesn't apply in this case, because it also has to be false.

And as for 'absolutely no evidence beyond hearsay', that's absolute rubbish - I've provided statistical comparisons of the Medievia code vs Merc 1.0, and I have scanned copy of a statement signed by Vryce under penalty of perjury in which he states that the code I reviewed is "Medievia 4.1" - and that's without all the backing views of many other people who have seen the code (including at least one person who coded for Medievia). All this information has been available for years, specifically because of people claiming the sort of thing you're claiming now.

But tell me, if you believed there was no evidence, and that posting such claims about people without evidence is unprofessional, why did you repeatedly post things like:

"There seems no doubt that Medievia is violating the license. They may or may not be violating the profit part of the license (we have no way of knowing whether they are showing a profit or not) but they certainly do seem to be violating the bits involving proper credit."

And:

"Medievia IS violating the DIKU license. It's not including the proper credits to the DIKU authors...None of these facts are really in question."

You see, most of do know the facts, have plenty of evidence, and have used that as the basis for our opinions. There are other muds which I strongly suspect of violating the Diku licence as well, but without any evidence to back it up I prefer not to say anything.

But if you posted your above statements about Medievia without reading the evidence, then by your own reasoning that makes you less professional than the rest of us in this thread. And for the first time in as long as I can remember, I actually agree with you on this point.

Well, yes. It does, actually. Using the code and not following the license (however it is written) constitutes stealing.
Same thing as installing a program and breaking the EULA.
The DIKU license might seem irrelevant to you today, but that's not what we're debating. You broke it, knowing full well that you were stealing. Playing down the severity of the act due to the amount of time passed doesn't make you look better.

No wonder you have been called medthievia on so many boards.

Oh, and the_logos - I guess you do this to get those game links in your sig displayed? All publicity is good publicity, right ?

It's good to see they've at least dropped the "we're not a Diku derivative" line, and moved on to the "who cares if we don't follow ther licence". That way we can all just agree that they're a bunch of thieves, and hopefully not spam the site with too many flame wars.

Medievia should be removed and banned once more and the IRE crap should be as well. Liars, thieves, and shameless-self-promoting producers of such sub-standard games only make the MUD community look bad. We're all better off with out that filth.

Take care,

Jason

IRE is, as far as I'm aware, absolutely and completely legitimate.
If they have their own codebase which is made from scratch, and there are no licensing issues, there's no reason why they shouldn't be allowed to even charge people money for making characters. Keeping money-bought advantages balanced so that regular players aren't massively overpowered is also a good thing.
I don't like the concept of any MUD charging money, but there's nothing inherently wrong with Iron Realms.

Seeing Medthievia here, however, made me quite upset. I don't think they should be featured here, shameless bastard corrupt lying thieves that they are. "So what if we stole the codebase, it was X years ago and we added Y lines of code since"? Go to ####.

Don't confuse being unwilling to sue you with not caring. Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt (one of the Diku team) has said that "Vryce was indeed one of the major reasons i stopped contributing to the community, and found other places to spend my energy" - and he's not the only one. Many mud developers have chosen not to contribute to the mud community any more, citing your mud and those like it as the reason.

Well obviously those who play it don't, or they wouldn't be playing - but many of those who have learned the truth for themselves have since left, including staff members such as Omawarisan (former level 140 Medievia god) who stated "For years I have believed Medievia to be righteous in its claims to be original and free of copyrighted materials (including both the code, and the recent massive work down to remove copyrighted references in zones, monsters, items, etc.). It now appears Medievia is outwardly original and copyright-free, but inwardly I highly, HIGHLY, question the origins of many of lines of code" and Thranz (former Medievia coder) who stated "I left because I didn't want any more of my work (at the code level and the building level) associated with Medievia.com. I don't need code comparisons or audits or God to come down to Earth to know who is telling the truth. The code is DIKU, I know because I *worked* on the code".

The various gaming sites who take your money for advertising don't care?! Well gee, what a big surprise!

You want to know why we care? Because we respect the work of others, and their contributions to our hobby - and people like you undermine all of that. "Who cares?" you say - but if it hadn't been for Diku (and Merc) you wouldn't even have had a mud to start from. Now think what you might have had, if you hadn't stopped the Diku team from contributing further to the community. Think what progress might have been made if the Merc team and others had continued developing and releasing their updates.

Because you represent the worst aspects of the mud community.

People show contempt towards you not because your mud is run a business, but because it is build on the ripped-off work of others. You've taken someone else's efforts which they gave freely, stripped out the credits, and claimed it as your own - then made a living off it.

But you are, legally speaking, exactly that.

Nothing new that needed to be stated; an outdated mud, operated by scum who care nothing about the community you damage with your theft. If you didn't want me to reiterate the facts, why even ask?

I can understand why Medievia was readmitted on the list - I'm not happy that it was, but we don't live in a perfect world. So I just sighed, didn't comment on it, and thought to myself that they could at least keep a lower profile.

The attitude you show in this thread really makes me cringe though, Soleil. Cut down the smileys, you have nothing to feel smug about.

Sure I do, I have a wonderful life, a wonderful family and a very successful business.  I have a lot to be happy about.  Just because there are some of you who hate my business and scorn everything we do doesn't really bother me at all.  As I said in my last post, if you chose to live in the past, so be it.  Please don't expect me or Medievia to though.  There is no reason why we should have to keep a low profile, we have one of the most successful games in the MUD world.  I'm proud of it despite the things you people believe and say.

Wow. I don't normally get myself involved in this issue, and I hadn't planned on even commenting about this, but ####. Do you not even see the forest for the trees here? Do you not realize why it is people hold the animosity toward you, Mike, and your game when you make such statements? Would you not be upset if I came along, stole your code, removed the credits, and then put it up on the net and claimed it was my own work and started charging people money to play?

Going on to state that your PROUD of being a criminal is the realy disturbing part though. I've never seen you or Mike make such a blatent display of your disregard for yourselves, the community, and the Diku/Merc authors.

It's also equally amazing to me that any site operator would willingly accept money from these people when they display such an open contempt for everything the site is about.

I wonder if Michael Jackson still considers himself African-American.

On a more serious note, though. Does saying that you've brutally conquered your enemies (the fact that you've out-bullied and out-lasted the DIKU developers) mean you're okay people, or that what you did isn't very, very wrong, and worthy of censure and scorn?

I think this is simply a case of the winners attempting to re-write the history books. Personally, I tell the players of my game the story of Medievia every few years, just so it's never forgotten.

Laugh, proud to be a criminal?  Where did I say that?  I love how you people twist everything to suit your needs.  YOU (that can be directed toward anyone who keep these "methievia" claims alive) believe us to be criminals.  

I am proud of the business that Mike and I work hard to maintain.  I am proud of the progress that Medievia has made throughout the years despite all this mess. I am proud of the gods who volunteer countless hours of their lives towards the future of Medievia.  I am proud of the players who log in everyday and help move Medievia forward.  I am proud of the Mud site owners who realize that your claims are a part of the past and see that it is time to move forward.  

Ok, I really am done for the day.  It's time for me to spend some time with my family who is proud of me for being the person I am, not the criminal some of you believe me to be.

And do you think your children will be proud when they grow up, surf the net, and discover that mummy and daddy have made a living off something they stole from someone else?

Wow, I didn't realize you were a lawyer.

It's a shame the DIKU guys are so uninterested in enforcing their copyright. I'd bet they could even find a pretty decent pro bono attorney for a case like this; even if they couldn't, they wouldn't have a whole lot to lose if they didn't prevail with the suit. You, on the other hand, would stand to lose your livelihood and a significant chunk of your life for over the past 10 years or so. Plus, with all the insane criminalizing-of-copyright-violation statutes flying around lately, maybe more, who knows.

So, yeah. Be as smug and shameless as you like about it; just hope, for your sake, that they don't change their mind.

Ok, really last post...

Our lawyers HAVE looked at the license and have assured Mike that it is poorly written, full of holes, and could not stand up in court. So, I really don't think there's anything to worry about there.

Happy Mother's Day!

Teacher to Kid: And what do your parents do for a living?

Kid: Well, they stole the university project of some students, ripped out the credits, and passed it off as their own. Then they tell people its free, but once the people have played for a while, they discover they have to give lots of money in order to compete!

Teacher to Kid: You must be so proud!

So, if you can steal something without getting in legal trouble for it, you think there is nothing morally wrong with stealing it?

Maybe it's true that you have nothing to worry about legally, but morally it's another matter. It's great to see though, that all you worry about is covering your *** from the law and cashing in from other people's stolen property.

If the law can't do anything about it, then this is an example of a weakness of the law, not a strength of Medievia.

Actually, there is something to worry about. That license was the only thing granting you any rights to use the work at all, and your decision to disregard it means you've rejected the terms, which means you have no rights under copyright law to use the code. Your lawyer should have told you this if he's worth one nickel of what you guys paid him for that oh so brilliant opinion.

Do you know how many games there are listed here that have stolen IP? Every Star Wars text MUD in existence, or any MUD that uses Star Wars IP is breaking the Lucas license, for instance. They're stealing the IP. Nobody makes a big deal about them, even though that IP is actually worth billions of dollars.

Some of you are on an incredibly closed-minded and juvenile crusade.

--matt

As the maxim goes: I like an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out.

Edit: In case my point wasn't clear, I find your notion of open- and close-mindedness mighty strange.

Again, I ask why all the vitriol towards some license breakers but not others? The inability or unwillingness to apply consistent standards to all muds on this issue just screams "Witch hunt." If you're against IP violations, why is there no outcry about the legions of them? Or is it just that you don't like Medievia specifically and this is a reason to hate on them? (Yes, I realize you're not one of the more vitriolic attackers.)

--matt

This tired old argument again, the_logos?

To equate deliberately overlooked works of fan fiction with a mud that has taken someone else's work, ripped out the credits, and made a living from running it against their specific and repeated wishes, is laughable.

I'm not sure which is the saddest - that Medthievia claims to be so proud about a mud they now admit to having ripped off, or that a so-called "professional" would then jump to their defence.

You're accusing ME of pulling up a tired old argument? How long have you been flogging this dead horse? A decade? I mean, I can see why you keep it up, given how fabulously effective your crusade has been in shutting them down and keeping them off mud portals.

The Lucas license is clear in its prohibition of using the Star Wars IP. People have chosen to ignore that license, just as Medievia says they've chosen to ignore the DIKU license. The major difference, of course, is that the Lucas IP is worth billions of dollars whereas the DIKU license is worth practically nothing.

And "Medthievia." How 5th grade. Are you going to start making plays on Mike's last name now or something?

--matt

I don't remember myself welcoming any of the muds you talk about here at TMS or anywhere else. I do remember myself pointing out a mud that ripped off another mud's webpage content and tried passing it as theirs, on another forum. Like here, the case was pretty clear and well documented. I am not familiar with the Lucas licence or their view on fan fiction - I suppose I could look it up and educate myself, but I have enough other hobbies (not to mention work) to fill my time with. Flaming usually isn't one of them.

There are also two other reasons why Medievia is different, for me at least:

1) They steal from other members of the same community. I am part of that community, so naturally it affects me.

2) They use the stolen property to make profit. Don't get me wrong, I don't envy them the money. To give an example: I am also a painter - if I paint a picture and put it up on the net, some kid may come along, save the picture and use it for their avatar. It's wrong, and if I find out, I may talk to them and explain why it's wrong. If, however, somebody started selling prints of my picture on Ebay, I'd be seriously upset. And if, to make matters worse, it was blatantly obvious that they knew what they were doing, I'd be furious. If they were smug about it, I might jump through the roof.

And you know what? I probably wouldn't sue them if they lived on the other side of the world, because it would not be viable financially and logistically.

Do they? I don't have access to their books, so I wouldn't know. They use it to charge revenue, certainly, but then, the DIKU license doesn't say anything about revenue, only profit, and the only way to know if they're turning a profit is to look at their books.

--matt