Originally Posted by (The_Disciple @ Dec. 25 2004,10:15) The definition from some random guy on a mud website would be more accurate?

Did you notice that dragonmaster never gave a definition?

I've figured out the definition will always match whatever the current features are of the muds that call themselves RPIs.

Originally Posted by (the_logos @ Dec. 23 2004,13:53) Just a point about Shangri'la. It has a lot of players online primarily because they let people idle online. Last time I checked (few months ago), the -average- player on Shangri'la had been idle longer (26 minutes) than the most idle player on the mud I was comparing it to. --matt

Well perhaps they were bound, gagged and getting some well-deserved discipline making it hard to get to the keyboard. But yes many moos, mucks and mushes are designed to leave the characters in the world if they desire. Sometimes they have scripts attached to receive messages or relay mail. I'm guessing though I don't know for sure, that would probably a punishable offense on an RPI mud.

[dragon master]

Originally Posted by (Tyche @ Dec. 25 2004,18:48) Originally Posted by (The_Disciple @ Dec. 25 2004,10:15) The definition from some random guy on a mud website would be more accurate? Did you notice that dragonmaster never gave a definition?   I've figured out the definition will always match whatever the current features are of the muds that call themselves RPIs.

Nope, actually, many muds call themselves RPIs but are not.

An RPI mud is levelless, xpless, has permadeath, no global channels(except a newb channel I think), is incredibly RP focused(yah this ones up to opinion mostly, that's the main reason for the other requirements that are more of a yes/no thing), and there are probly other requirements but these are the ones I can remember off the top of my head.

Originally Posted by (dragon master @ Dec. 25 2004,22:22) Nope, actually, many muds call themselves RPIs but are not. An RPI mud is levelless, xpless, has permadeath, no global channels(except a newb channel I think), is incredibly RP focused(yah this ones up to opinion mostly, that's the main reason for the other requirements that are more of a yes/no thing), and there are probly other requirements but these are the ones I can remember off the top of my head.

It's interesting that Armegeddon really has levels and experience points, they are actually abstracted into the skill system. Experience is gained through repeated use of skills and one advances to higher skill levels via some form of hidden tally, aka experience points. One abstraction is simply replaced with another. Sounds to me like just hiding the levels and experience points is sufficient to meet that part of RPI definition. And they've got mana and hit points too.

OTOH, ElendorMush is truely levelless and experience pointless. Neither hit points nor mana either. There are no other abstractions replacing those. The only difference is it does have OOC global channels. It certainly satisfies the intense role-playing criteria though. That's obvious through the extensive logs.

So where's the rest of this RPI mud definition that you can't remember? One would have thought being that it's so very important to you that you'd have a very clear idea of just exactly what it is. Maybe even give us lots of links to essays and definitions. I've read here that RPI muds can't have a who list, and a score command. Hmm... some do though.

[Venomz]

I wonder somewhat if the original poster has ever discovered a mud that he/she found acceptable. If SOI and Armageddon did not pique his/her interest, then it is likely that he/she was not looking for an RPI in the typical sence.

[Delerak]

Tyche have you even seen the code for Armageddon? I find it disturbing that you made the statement that it has levels and experience when you yourself are not even on staff for Armageddon, and you can't even spell the muds name right, so your experience with it is obviously lacking. And a definition for RPI mud? It's already been posted, everyones definition for an Acronym in the MUD world is obviously going to differ from person to person, even when RPI is not a word we all know it means.. Role-Playing Intensive. With those three words any mud that is just Role-Play, is not an RPI we can all deduce, you have that Intensive in there for a reason, what is Intense? IMNSHO..
-Permadeath
-No levels
-No experience
-Detailed emoting system
-Well-written rooms/areas/objects/weapons
-Good solid code to support the roleplaying

Those are Intense things that make an RPI an RPI, they are INTENSE things that take away from the code(no levels) or support it (emote system).
Yes I play Armageddon MUD.

-Del

[dragon master]

Originally Posted by (Tyche @ Dec. 26 2004,16:56) It's interesting that Armegeddon really has levels and experience points,  they are actually abstracted into the skill system.  Experience is gained through repeated use of skills and one advances to higher skill levels via some form of hidden tally, aka experience points.   One abstraction is simply replaced with another.   Sounds to me like just hiding the levels and experience points is sufficient to meet that part of RPI definition.  And they've got mana and hit points too.

Tyche, the difference is that in Arm, you get better at doing something by doing it, sort of like in real life, you know the saying "practice makes perfect"? While in most non-RPIs, you kill mobs/do quests/etc. to get level ups which can make you better at completely unrelated things like hiding even if you never used the hide skill to gain that level. The difference is that an RPI puts realism before the ability to become uber-1337 or powerful (thus why your character dies when they die instead of comming back so they can rise to higher power) while many non-RPIs are the other way around.

[Sanvean]

An RPI is, plainly and simply, a game where the main focus is roleplay, and which offers the player a chance to create and act out a role.  The intensity is a difference of degree, and not something that disqualifies a place because they don't match some numerical criteria or have OOC mechanisms to help the player.

To my mind, the factor that makes a MUD successful at being roleplay intensive is having things that facilitate getting inside the role.  Delerak mentioned some -- the think command's another noteable one.  

That's where a lot of the code being decried as tedious comes into play, I think, such as getting one's clothes dusty when walking through a sandstorm, or finding that cooked food is more filling/satisfactory than uncooked.  They're not intended, though, to slow things down for the player and keep them from wandering off to spam kill fidos - they're there because they make the game world slightly more "real".  And that degree of adherence to gritty detail is not everyone's cup of tea - which seems fine to me.  

I like the occasional ramble on a hack and slash, and the drive to level, because it's a fun way to explore the game.  I've built a few areas on such games, and enjoyed the heck out of it, as anyone who's played Everwinter or the Midsummer Night's Forest on DarkCastle can testify -- they're silly and full of little pop culture references and jokes.  I like playing some console games because they're fun for different reasons, often revolving around graphics.  But if I want storytelling, a character and plotlines that makes me laugh or cry, I go to an RPI, because that's where they really shine.

Some hack and slashes get a bad rap because they're stock Diku (or ROM, or whatever flavor) and therefore tend to be the same as any other.  I like innovativeness and cool little features that I can explore, and so far I've found them more consistently on RPIs.  Which is not to say they don't exist elsewhere.

It seems a little disingenuous to me to say that the best roleplay doesn't happen in the environments that facilitate and encourage it the most.  Sure, it can happen elsewhere in lands replete with gossip and auction channels, but it's not going to flourish and self-perpetuate in the way it does when you're in an atmosphere where it's the main focus of the majority of the players.

[lckychrmsrr]

Originally Posted by I wonder somewhat if the original poster has ever discovered a mud that he/she found acceptable. If SOI and Armageddon did not pique his/her interest, then it is likely that he/she was not looking for an RPI in the typical sence.

I am currently giving New Worlds a try. While it is still in developement the players there are all focused on RP and enforce it themselves. The reasons I did not like SOI or Arm is because I didn't care for the theme. I gave SOI a try for over a month and Arm I spent a week or two. There was nothing wrong with the players, although some people take their emotes a little far. I just didn't care for the theme of the games. While New Worlds is lacking in areas like room descriptions and help files it is one of the friendliest places I've ever been. A lot of games send a welcome message to you once you enter but this game actually has players who will personally show the around the game and give you tips on how to get started and where the best newbie RP is.

In case anyone still reading this thread has muds to recommend I'll provide a few more details on what I'm looking for in case there is something other than whats been recommended that I may like. I want a game...

* where the focus is RP
* that is preferably fantasy themed, but I'm open to give others a try
* that is newbie friendly if possible

[dragon master]

Originally Posted by (lckychrmsrr @ Dec. 28 2004,13:33) Originally Posted by I wonder somewhat if the original poster has ever discovered a mud that he/she found acceptable. If SOI and Armageddon did not pique his/her interest, then it is likely that he/she was not looking for an RPI in the typical sence. I am currently giving New Worlds a try.  While it is still in developement the players there are all focused on RP and enforce it themselves.  The reasons I did not like SOI or Arm is because I didn't care for the theme.  I gave SOI a try for over a month and Arm I spent a week or two.  There was nothing wrong with the players, although some people take their emotes a little far.  I just didn't care for the theme of the games.  While New Worlds is lacking in areas like room descriptions and help files it is one of the friendliest places I've ever been.  A lot of games send a welcome message to you once you enter but this game actually has players who will personally show the around the game and give you tips on how to get started and where the best newbie RP is.   In case anyone still reading this thread has muds to recommend I'll provide a few more details on what I'm looking for in case there is something other than whats been recommended that I may like.  I want a game... * where the focus is RP * that is preferably fantasy themed, but I'm open to give others a try * that is newbie friendly if possible

Well, if you don't like SoI or Arm based on their themes, than I'd recommend Harshlands. Completely different theme than either SoI or Arm with very strong religious influences(religions are practically non-existant in SoI and I believe in Arm as well) and strong cultural divides. There aren't as many players on Harshlands though, but you might want to give it a try if you haven't allready.

Originally Posted by (dragon master @ Dec. 27 2004,15:45) Tyche, the difference is that in Arm, you get better at doing something by doing it, sort of like in real life, you know the saying "practice makes perfect"? While in most non-RPIs, you kill mobs/do quests/etc. to get level ups which can make you better at completely unrelated things like hiding even if you never used the hide skill to gain that level. The difference is that an RPI puts realism before the ability to become uber-1337 or powerful (thus why your character dies when they die instead of comming back so they can rise to higher power) while many non-RPIs are the other way around.

I've been talking about and comparing three different general classes of muds according to how role-playing is done, not just hack-n-slash Dikus vs. RPIs, but RPIs vs. pure role-playing muds.

For example:
Aardwolf hack-n-slash
Harshlands RPI
ElendorMush role-playing

It's rather obvious to me that muds like Harshlands and Armageddon do contain hack-n-slash games just like Aardwolf while incorporating some of the elements of pure role-playing games like Elendor and TrekMush. Skill-based development based on use is certainly not unique to RPI games. The finer abstraction of skill levels as opposed to character levels has been part of many hack-n-slash muds for a long time.

My objection is that RPI does not have specific criteria and is just another analog term that can describe a number of muds today, and is no longer codebase dependent (i.e Threshhold is an RPI mud, and there's a few RPI mushes - I listed them on an earlier thread). But most importantly the quality of role-playing on an RPI mud is not any better nor more intensive than a non-RPI role-playing mud, as opposed to it certainly being better than a typical hack-n-slash mud.

Originally Posted by (Sanvean @ Dec. 28 2004,12:43) An RPI is, plainly and simply, a game where the main focus is roleplay, and which offers the player a chance to create and act out a role. The intensity is a difference of degree, and not something that disqualifies a place because they don't match some numerical criteria or have OOC mechanisms to help the player. To my mind, the factor that makes a MUD successful at being roleplay intensive is having things that facilitate getting inside the role. Delerak mentioned some -- the think command's another noteable one.

It seems the implementors have a more liberal definition than the players. Which is good. Were it that simple just comparing it to a pure game like stock Diku, but there are some pretty dramatic differences in role-play style compared with pure storyteller, freestyle or game mastered role-playing muds.

One thing I noticed that's different on RPI muds is the attitude towards a simulationist aspect being present. That is players are roleplaying against/with an environment. Coming from playing role-playing mushes, for the most part the players implement the environment or the reality. There's a lot more player control over the world. Yes our clothes get dusty, wet, torn, there are storms, and earthquakes, and our food tastes different probably in more ways than one could imagine or code.

There's also the presence of goal-based game that doesn't have anything to do with role-play; that is to say can be gamed, min/maxed mechanically like D&D, Gurps or Rolemaster. If you think about it, absent role-play enforcement, an RPI mud would devolve into a pure hack-slash mud. On many of the other styles of role-playing muds that don't have the goal-based game, absent role-play enforcement they would devolve into purely social environments like a talker and/or building based toy environments (i.e LambaMOO).

BTW I've also played and enjoyed many hack-n-slash muds as well like Artic, Batmud, Sojourn, and Ground Zero. I don't believe most people play specific games or even game types to the exclusion of others. I enjoy chess, card games, baseball, volleyball, quake, age of empires, civilization, wargaming, pen and paper rpgs, zork-style games, diplomacy, as well as role-playing muds.

I even play and enjoy the rather low role-playing immersion of a tabletop D&D dungeon hack-n-slash at the kitchen table, as well as the higher immersion of a tabletop Ars Magica campaign. One thing that would turn me off totally from a tabletop RPG is a game master who wouldn't tolerate any OOC social interaction between the players at all, or ran a game based solely on the game mechanics without making any judgements or situational rules up to handle events. Hmm I think that's gets to the core why I don't particularly enjoy RPI muds, or what some call RPIs.

[dragon master]

Originally Posted by (Tyche @ Dec. 28 2004,17:45) Originally Posted by (dragon master @ Dec. 27 2004,15:45) Tyche, the difference is that in Arm, you get better at doing something by doing it, sort of like in real life, you know the saying "practice makes perfect"? While in most non-RPIs, you kill mobs/do quests/etc. to get level ups which can make you better at completely unrelated things like hiding even if you never used the hide skill to gain that level. The difference is that an RPI puts realism before the ability to become uber-1337 or powerful (thus why your character dies when they die instead of comming back so they can rise to higher power) while many non-RPIs are the other way around. I've been talking about and comparing three different general classes of muds according to how role-playing is done, not just hack-n-slash Dikus vs. RPIs, but RPIs vs. pure role-playing muds.   For example: Aardwolf       hack-n-slash Harshlands    RPI ElendorMush  role-playing It's rather obvious to me that muds like Harshlands and Armageddon do contain hack-n-slash games just like Aardwolf while incorporating some of the elements of pure role-playing games like Elendor and TrekMush.   Skill-based development based on use is certainly not unique to RPI games.   The finer abstraction of skill levels as opposed to character levels has been part of many hack-n-slash muds for a long time.   My objection is that RPI does not have specific criteria and is just another analog term that can describe a number of muds today, and is no longer codebase dependent (i.e  Threshhold is an RPI mud, and there's a few RPI mushes - I listed them on an earlier thread).  But most importantly the quality of role-playing on an RPI mud is not any better nor more intensive than a non-RPI role-playing mud, as opposed to it certainly being better than a typical hack-n-slash mud.

Threshold is not an RPI, while it may be a "pure role-playing game" and have very inforced roleplaying, it has levels, lacks permadeath, and has global OOC channels.

And I never said anything about the quality of RPI RP being better than the quality of a "pure role-playing game"'s RP. It is different and really depends on opinion. I prefer the RP in RPI muds, but this doesn't mean they necessarily have "better" RP, just RP that I enjoy more. Somebody else might feel the exact opposite. That's what's so great about having a variety of muds to try.

Originally Posted by (dragon master @ Dec. 29 2004,00:20) Threshold is not an RPI, while it may be a "pure role-playing game" and have very inforced roleplaying, it has levels, lacks permadeath, and has global OOC channels.

Sure it is. It's got the same features and role-playing style that I find unenjoyable on Armegeddon. Last time I played Threshold (which was ages ago) you were punished for using the OOC channel too much, that may have changed. And the other stuff I mentioned in the post to Sanvean.

Permadeath certainly can't be a requirement... rather the immersion requirement I suspect is to implement the world realistically (realism along the lines of the underlying fantasy obviously). In a mostly deathless world like Vampyre or a world where resurrection or cloning is commonplace and part of "reality" would make permadeath "unreal" and non-immersive. So no that can't be a requirement, as neither would a definition requiring all RPI muds to meet the ridiculous notion that everyone is telepathic and can send tells to each other, or require the stage to be in a desert world.

You know the first implementor of an RPI mud to use the term RPI stated emphatically that who and score were OOC and didn't belong in an RPI mud. Hey it's a great point following right along the line of global channels. Where's that leave Armegeddon? In strictly non-RPI land. That is if you follow the specific criteria rather than a more reasonable and sensical analog criteria.

But yes Armegeedon has levels too. But I'm now repeating myself. It's meaningless distinction of game mechanics that have absolutely nothing at all to do with "intense role-playing" or the style of game. Whether you know OOCly that you are a level 10 thief on Threshold or you are a level 47 pick-pocket on Armeggedon doesn't make the experience any more intense or immersive. Whether it's hidden or open to inspection maybe. So what's the deal with the anti-immersive Armegeddon stat command? See above.

Originally Posted by (dragon master @ Dec. 29 2004,00:20) And I never said anything about the quality of RPI RP being better than the quality of a "pure role-playing game"'s RP. It is different and really depends on opinion. I prefer the RP in RPI muds, but this doesn't mean they necessarily have "better" RP, just RP that I enjoy more. Somebody else might feel the exact opposite. That's what's so great about having a variety of muds to try.

Well yeah we've gone full circle. Those who enjoy Armegeddon would be far far more likely to enjoy Threshold and vice versa than they would TrekMush or Shangrila. I'm not talking theme but role-playing style. Both Threshold and Armegeddon implement RPI style games, the others clearly don't. It's also apparent they have far less in common with Hack-n-slash games than do Armegeddon and Threshold. BTW neither refer to themselves as RPI muds. Doesn't mean they aren't though.

[Delerak]

Do you mis-spell Armageddon purposefully or is English not your first language?

-Del

[The_Disciple]

Originally Posted by (Delerak @ Dec. 29 2004,06:18) Do you mis-spell Armageddon purposefully or is English not your first language? -Del

Isn't Armageddon technically a Hebrew and not English word?

As long as we're being nitpicky anyway.

[dragon master]

Originally Posted by (Tyche @ Dec. 29 2004,02:42) Originally Posted by (dragon master @ Dec. 29 2004,00:20) Threshold is not an RPI, while it may be a "pure role-playing game" and have very inforced roleplaying, it has levels, lacks permadeath, and has global OOC channels. Sure it is.  It's got the same features and role-playing style  that I find unenjoyable on Armegeddon.   Last time I played Threshold (which was ages ago) you were punished for using the OOC channel too much, that may have changed.   And the other stuff I mentioned in the post to Sanvean. Permadeath certainly can't be a requirement... rather the immersion requirement I suspect is to implement the world realistically (realism along the lines of the underlying fantasy obviously).   In a mostly deathless world like Vampyre or a world where resurrection or cloning is commonplace and part of "reality" would make permadeath "unreal" and non-immersive.   So no that can't be a requirement, as neither would a definition requiring all RPI muds to meet the ridiculous notion that everyone is telepathic and can send tells to each other, or require the stage to be in a desert world.   You know the first implementor of an RPI mud to use the term RPI stated emphatically that who and score were OOC and didn't belong in an RPI mud.  Hey it's a great point following right along the line of global channels.  Where's that leave Armegeddon?  In strictly non-RPI land.  That is if you follow the specific criteria rather than a more reasonable and sensical analog criteria. But yes Armegeedon has levels too.  But I'm now repeating myself.  It's meaningless distinction of game mechanics that have absolutely nothing at all to do with "intense role-playing" or the style of game.   Whether you know OOCly that you are a level 10 thief on Threshold or you are a level 47 pick-pocket on Armeggedon doesn't make the experience any more intense or immersive.   Whether it's hidden or open to inspection maybe.   So what's the deal with the anti-immersive Armegeddon stat command?  See above.   Originally Posted by (dragon master @ Dec. 29 2004,00:20) And I never said anything about the quality of RPI RP being better than the quality of a "pure role-playing game"'s RP. It is different and really depends on opinion. I prefer the RP in RPI muds, but this doesn't mean they necessarily have "better" RP, just RP that I enjoy more. Somebody else might feel the exact opposite. That's what's so great about having a variety of muds to try. Well yeah we've gone full circle.  Those who enjoy Armegeddon would be far far more likely to enjoy Threshold and vice versa than they would TrekMush or Shangrila.   I'm not talking theme but role-playing style.   Both Threshold and Armegeddon implement RPI style games, the others clearly don't.   It's also apparent they have far less in common with Hack-n-slash games than do Armegeddon and Threshold.  BTW neither refer to themselves as RPI muds.   Doesn't mean they aren't though.

I would have to say that Arm and Threshold are completely different types of games RP wise. Most of the people I know who enjoy playing RPIs and have played Threshold, don't like it. It isn't the same type of game at all.
And as for the whole "non-permadeath to increase immersion" thing, if people never die in the world, than I'm taking it that new people are never born either? Otherwise the world population would have serious problems. No such thing as assassins in such a world, why kill somebody when they pop back up? Necromancers(a class in Threshold IIRC) would have problems to if all their corpses jumped back up and started attacking them. There wouldn't be too much war, as it would last forever as soldiers got back up and continued fighting and eventually people would get bored, and realize nothing was going to happen. There would be no sense of courage really as people wouldn't be worried about doing something dangerous since they could pop back up all fine and dandy.

A mud could be set up so that the lack of permadeath increases immersion, but Threshold wasn't done that way, the permadeath was not included so that players would not have to make new characters when they died.