[The_Disciple]

See, there's that sense of superiority and condescension again.

Paraphrased:

"Everyone should play what they enjoy, but by the way, if you're not playing an RPI, then what you're playing isn't as good. It's what mature people ascend to. Everything else is JUST a roleplay mud."

If you RPI blokes were an eight year old kid, no one would come to your birthday party, and no wonder why.

[Jazuela]

I think the entire discussion is silly, and the accusations being slung back and forth even sillier.

Within the scope of -this- website, there exists a definition of an "RPI." RPI can mean many - many different things, some of which have nothing to do with muds at all.

But here, on TopMudSites, an RPI follows a distinct set of criteria which seperates it from other muds.

The only games I know of that fit the criteria of an RPI *HERE AT TMS* are the games that the originator of this thread said he isn't interested in.

So - either he isn't looking for an RPI as defined by this specific website's listings or I just don't know of any others that do fit it.

Perhaps the originator of the thread might kindly tell us what, exactly, he is looking for and not to use a term that obviously brings out the worst in people on all sides of the issue.

Are you looking for permanent death of characters? Are you looking for an "intense roleplaying experience" in general, or do you require that "intensity" to be driven by specific rules and code to support it?

I've played Inferno, which can be very intense roleplay at times, but it doesn't fit the criteria of an RPI, according to the guidelines set here on this particular website. It has not only an OOC channel, it has an entire OOC area. Plotlines aren't kept strictly IC, people discuss them up in the OOC area and even on their unofficial bulletin board forum. There is no permanent death, there are levels and "training" that is experience-point-based rather than a more realistic "trial and error." It has a massive "verblist" (called socials in other games) which often are totally incongruent with the game's genre (you can "hop around like a bunny" or some such with one of them, for instance)

I used to play Gemstone, which also used to have some pretty intense RP at times. It wasn't RP enforced though, it was merely RP allowed with a vague rule requiring people to remain "in character." So if it was "in character" for your character to say "I'mma big bad evul nasty elfie and I gotta treasure boxie so's I wanna git someone ta pop m'boxie" and jump around and giggle, then it's all good. Stupid as heck to me, but perfectly within the boundaries of the game's rules.

I currently play one of the games that fits the criteria of an RPI here on this particular website but it's one of the ones the originator of this thread said he wasn't interested in.

[Delerak]

I never said that Disciple, If you are happy playing what you are playing keep playing. But in MY eyes I think -I- have ascended to a higher form of entertainment. If you think random killing of NPCs to gain experience and levels is fun so be it. I used to do it and have fun, but I was much younger. Now if you're going to quote me quote my whole post and don't do this paraphrasing bull ****, I never once posted that RPI players are "higher" or ascended beyond players who love to play different muds. You could have Goerge Martin playing a stock diku pk mud, who cares? The point is I see that I have ascended..****ing moron. I just had to post that, you can quote that too if you want.

[dragon master]

Originally Posted by (The_Disciple @ Jan. 02 2005,10:48) See, there's that sense of superiority and condescension again. Paraphrased: "Everyone should play what they enjoy, but by the way, if you're not playing an RPI, then what you're playing isn't as good.  It's what mature people ascend to.  Everything else is JUST a roleplay mud." If you RPI blokes were an eight year old kid, no one would come to your birthday party, and no wonder why.

So, when you modify what one RPIer says you get something that shows that that RPIer is being elitist, you show, by the laws of pointless stereotyping, all RPIers are elitist?

I'm sorry but there isn't much logic in that argument at all.

[Kaleisha]

Well there is fear of dying as there are penalties for death. Also no one ever likes the blow to their ride when they die, So it's hardly like players in non permadeath muds are lining up to jump of cliffs for the fun of it. With the knowledge that you will not lose your character permanently comes the freedom to develop it fully, why would you give something 100% if you don't even know you are going to have it tomorrow?. I've spoken to many people who have said they held back from really putting everything into a character in a permadeath situation because of that very factor.

The few 'RPI' muds that I have tried were possibly terrible examles of the genre, but they sure did put me off. Mud number one I found myself as a newbie with no channels whatsoever to ask for help on. No way to even send a tell to anyone as you had to know the people first and have some kind of earring. I found my way yo a bar where green-eyed elf was talking to almond-eyed human about the baseball game they watched last night on TV. I mustered up an ic 'excuse me gentlemen but I am new in town and feeling a little lost' and was killed.. I can only assume it was for daring to interrupt their chatter?. RPI #2 had more players, but everyone just skipped around using 'introduce <target>' I felt silly using a coded method to get to know people. when I attempted to actually roleplay an introduction I was met with strannge reactions and someone said to me 'ooc u can just do introduce elf. that will tell u my name'

I'm just getting kind of fed up with this eliteist snobbery that seems to be an underlying trend. RPI muds are the only way to provide a rich and intensive roleplaying experience???. I don't think the coding of a mud has anything at all to do with the rp experience. You can get stunningly realistic roleplay in a diku mud! It's the players that make the game.

I think the term RPI to describe thaat kind of mud is misleading, it almost suggests that anything that does not fit the RPI 'reqs' perfectly is hack 'n'slash. And by the way some of you talk it sounds like you believe that too. I think that these days with many more muds coming out with original code bases that cross the boundries between the little pigeon holes we used to jam things into that perhaps the whole way we look at and label muds needs to be reassed.

You can have intensive roleplay in a non RPI, and as I have experienced, you can have damned lousy roleply in an RPI

[WarHound]

My mud is better than your mud! My Immz could eat the brainz of your imms. Nya nya nya! lol11!1

You're all just jealous that we've been RPing with hot babes, all day. Besides, you know I'm training to be a cage fighter.

I may start a petition to never use 'RPI' ever again. Instead, I will refer to Armageddon's genre as 'teh f00kyn Roxkor', or, a tfR mud, and nothing else.

[Kaleisha]

Oooo yes, I love TFR excellent, so what will be the -official- definition of TFR

new post, Looking for an TFR mud

I wonder if the thread would kick up the same amount of debate? Your mud can't be a TFR because it doesn't have shiny purple meaningless gems, and everyone knows shiny purple meaningless gems are 'teh f00kyn Roxkor' !

[Dunestalker]

Originally Posted by I've spoken to many people who have said they held back from really putting everything into a character in a permadeath situation because of that very factor.

Then they are sissies IMO. It's that fact that many of us put everything we have into our characters...because they could die at anytime.

It's pretty ****ing awesome when RL years after one of your characters has died they are still remembered by many with fondness and great stories. Sometimes their deaths can leave a lasting impression on those who they interacted with.

[Alice]

Originally Posted by (Sanvean @ Dec. 28 2004,17:43) An RPI is, plainly and simply, a game where the main focus is roleplay

Quit rolling around the houses. It is, what it is.

[WarHound]

The official definition of tfR muds:

'A Mud that is teh f00kyn Roxkor. Requirements include: kicking ass, taking names, playing roles, and sexing up the occasional over-sized insect. Permadeath, no OOC channels, a sexy beast of a Sanvean as Imm, and the occasional long-winded, more or less pointless GDB post by one of many long-winded, mind-warped players. The occasional mass slaughter by your resident 'Imm o' Evil', the occasional gargantuan orgy led by promiscuous nobles, and the occasional bout of annihilation amongst the skinnies.

These requirments, while important, are not absolutely necessary. In fact, they all take a back seat to the main requirement of the 'tfR'genre of muds: Teh mud must b teh f00kyn Roxkor four jour fookyn Soxkor - Armageddon is the only mud I know of that fits all of the above requirements.

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by (Delerak @ Jan. 02 2005,15:00) That's why there are certain elements that make an RPI an RPI, these elements are intense, without permadeath you cannot call yourself RPI hence the word intense, you are just a roleplaying mud.

RPI is a label commonly applied to muds with specific a feature set, much like MOO is used to refer to a specific type of mud. However while it would be confusing to call every Object Oriented mud a MOO, that doesn't mean that MOOs are the only Object Oriented muds, nor that they are innately better (or worse) than other Object Oriented muds. The same logic applies to RPIs and muds with intensive roleplaying - in my opinion many of the RPI features actually detract from the fun and even from the quality of roleplaying (as well as place restrictions on the theme).

You appear to look down on muds which involve going around killing things - but what need does a mud have for permadeath if there is no killing?

Originally Posted by I think that's why I eventually ascended to the RPI genre

You haven't ascended, you've just become more closed-minded towards muds that don't fit your current tastes. Try talking to some of the MUSH RP-fanatics* and you'll find that many of them look on RPIs with the same arrogant disdain that you now show towards other RP muds.

If you wish to 'ascend', you'll need to learn to be more open-minded. If you'd had this same attitude when you used to play GodWars then you'd have stagnated there instead of finding whichever mud it is you now play.

* Just to clarify, by "MUSH RP-fanatic" I mean those MUSH players who are also fanatics about their style of mud - I don't mean that all MUSH players are fanatics, because, as should be apparent from this thread, every style of mud has its own group of zealots.

[prof1515]

Originally Posted by (Kaleisha @ Jan. 02 2005,14:12) Well there is fear of dying as there are penalties for death. Also no one ever likes the blow to their ride when they die, So it's hardly like players in non permadeath muds are lining up to jump of cliffs for the fun of it. With the knowledge that you will not lose your character permanently comes the freedom to develop it fully, why would you give something 100% if you don't even know you are going to have it tomorrow?. I've spoken to many people who have said they held back from really putting everything into a character in a permadeath situation because of that very factor. I'm just getting kind of fed up with this eliteist snobbery that seems to be an underlying trend. RPI muds are the only way to provide a rich and intensive roleplaying experience???. I don't think the coding of a mud has anything at all to do with the rp experience. You can get stunningly realistic roleplay in a diku mud! It's the players that make the game.

Why give it your all if you may lose it tomorrow? For the same reason you do so in life (in which you could easily die tomorrow for all you know). It's because the struggle is what matters. Success is not nearly as satisfying nor the experience so realistic if the difficulty is non-existant. The element of death adds to the realistic experience. Yourself, and the people you're talking to don't sound like those looking for a role-playing experience so much as a gaming one. That's fine, but I think you fail to see that what you're talking about isn't role-playing.

Originally Posted by The few 'RPI' muds that I have tried were possibly terrible examles of the genre, but they sure did put me off. Mud number one I found myself as a newbie with no channels whatsoever to ask for help on. No way to even send a tell to anyone as you had to know the people first and have some kind of earring. I found my way yo a bar where green-eyed elf was talking to almond-eyed human about the baseball game they watched last night on TV. I mustered up an ic 'excuse me gentlemen but I am new in town and feeling a little lost' and was killed.. I can only assume it was for daring to interrupt their chatter?. RPI #2 had more players, but everyone just skipped around using 'introduce <target>' I felt silly using a coded method to get to know people. when I attempted to actually roleplay an introduction I was met with strannge reactions and someone said to me 'ooc u can just do introduce elf. that will tell u my name'

Well, there's your problem. These don't even sound like RPIs, they sound like the knock-offs that fans of RPI MUDs don't like seeing the acronym used to describe, for this very reason (and on the off-chance that the first incident took place on an actual RPI MUD, you should have reported it to the staff because no RPI staff would tolerate that kind of behavior). RPIs require you to remain in character so under no circumstances should anyone ever be talking about last night's baseball game. That's why RPIs don't use global channels, restrict OOC information, and require strict in-character behavior at all times. You want to talk baseball? That's what instant messengers are for.

Originally Posted by I think the term RPI to describe thaat kind of mud is misleading, it almost suggests that anything that does not fit the RPI 'reqs' perfectly is hack 'n'slash. And by the way some of you talk it sounds like you believe that too. I think that these days with many more muds coming out with original code bases that cross the boundries between the little pigeon holes we used to jam things into that perhaps the whole way we look at and label muds needs to be reassed.

RPI is an extreme. If your MUD is "crossing the boundaries between the little pigeon holes", then don't use RPI to describe your MUD because that's like using "Ferrari" to describe any vehicle with four wheels. Just as "Ferrari" is used to describe a particular type of vehicle, so too is RPI used to describe a particular type of MUD. If your MUD doesn't fit that description because it features other elements that "cross the boundaries", don't use the acronym. Being an RPI (or for that matter, like any other strict definition like "Pure PK") is like being pregnant. Either you are or you aren't.

Originally Posted by You can have intensive roleplay in a non RPI, and as I have experienced, you can have damned lousy roleply in an RPI

Well, assuming that the two examples you gave above are your only experiences in "RPI" MUDs, it's a fair guess to say you're speaking from ignorance. So, your assessment is fairly worthless, since it's an assessment of a non-RPI MUD posing as one, not an actual RPI MUD. Now, if you have legitimate examples from legitimate RPIs, that may be different (but again, you should have contacted their staff, since RPI staff are fairly strict about maintaining the quality of the IC environment). But your experiences with Psuedo-RPIs are the very thing fans of RPI MUDs don't like about everyone using the acronym: it presents a false appearance of what an RPI is like.

Not everyone has to like role-playing or RPI MUDs. But the problems those who don't like them constantly butting into conversations regarding them (if you don't like RPIs, move on to another discussion topic) or incorrectly call their MUD an RPI leading to misconceptions about the genre (to play off my above example, if you're a Rolls-Royce, call yourself a Rolls-Royce, not a Ferrari).

These two things would help prevent the continued derailing of topics.

To the original poster: It doesn't sound like you're interested in RPI MUDs but if you are try Harshlands, Shadows of Isildur, and Armageddon (there may be a few more in development as well, feel free to drop me a PM if you'd like me to point out any others when I note them). If permanent death, level-less, strict-in-character role-play at all times within a detailed and realistic world are not what you're looking for, avoid those three, since RPI MUDs are probably not up your alley.

Take care,

Jason

[dragon master]

Originally Posted by (Kaleisha @ Jan. 02 2005,14:12) The few 'RPI' muds that I have tried were possibly terrible examles of the genre, but they sure did put me off. Mud number one I found myself as a newbie with no channels whatsoever to ask for help on. No way to even send a tell to anyone as you had to know the people first and have some kind of earring. I found my way yo a bar where green-eyed elf was talking to almond-eyed human about the baseball game they watched last night on TV. I mustered up an ic 'excuse me gentlemen but I am new in town and feeling a little lost' and was killed.. I can only assume it was for daring to interrupt their chatter?. RPI #2 had more players, but everyone just skipped around using 'introduce <target>' I felt silly using a coded method to get to know people. when I attempted to actually roleplay an introduction I was met with strannge reactions and someone said to me 'ooc u can just do introduce elf. that will tell u my name' I'm just getting kind of fed up with this eliteist snobbery that seems to be an underlying trend. RPI muds are the only way to provide a rich and intensive roleplaying experience???. I don't think the coding of a mud has anything at all to do with the rp experience. You can get stunningly realistic roleplay in a diku mud! It's the players that make the game. I think the term RPI to describe thaat kind of mud is misleading, it almost suggests that anything that does not fit the RPI 'reqs' perfectly is hack 'n'slash. And by the way some of you talk it sounds like you believe that too. I think that these days with many more muds coming out with original code bases that cross the boundries between the little pigeon holes we used to jam things into that perhaps the whole way we look at and label muds needs to be reassed. You can have intensive roleplay in a non RPI, and as I have experienced, you can have damned lousy roleply in an RPI

I highly doubt the examples you gave are RPIs. Killing somebody for breaking an OOC conversation would probly put the mud in the realm of non-RP (in an RPI, you shouldn't even have OOC conversations in the middle of the mud), in my opinion, unless it was players breaking the rules of the mud and they were severly punished for it. This is the kind of confusion that is created when people twist around the meanings of the acronym. I'd be interested in knowing what muds those are though.

All your arguments for the 'elitist snobbery' of RPIs comes from the fact that you seem to think everybody else is saying non-RPIs are lesser when in fact, most aren't. It is a self-implied statement. You say I think this is true, and assuming that it is true, I will prove that it is true. There is nothing "misleading" about the term RPI, it is a type of mud, and a type that you don't seem to understand very well, given your examples of the "RPI"(which really weren't) that you played.

[Fifi]

Originally Posted by (Kaleisha @ Jan. 02 2005,14:12) Well there is fear of dying as there are penalties for death. Also no one ever likes the blow to their ride when they die, So it's hardly like players in non permadeath muds are lining up to jump of cliffs for the fun of it. With the knowledge that you will not lose your character permanently comes the freedom to develop it fully, why would you give something 100% if you don't even know you are going to have it tomorrow?. I've spoken to many people who have said they held back from really putting everything into a character in a permadeath situation because of that very factor.

That has not been my experience. I find, and I believe the people with whom I play will agree, that because life is fragile, it is precious. And because it is precious I want to experience it completely.

Oddly,  my experience has been the complete opposite of yours. I've found (granted it was only one game, but I played it for two years) that the game with no death at all, had players who were far more conservative. Who played, I felt, far too safe.

Finally, yes, you can find less stellar rp on rpi's (though as pointed out above, the examples sited are not the types of bad ro you're likely to find on an rpi) and great rp in other environments.

And you're not required to like RPIs. It's ok if you don't.