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DonathinFrye · 01-18-2006, 04:13 PM

I'll make this a long one, even for me, in an effort to openly show that these arguments you support of Matt's are both empty and stilted. I decided to look up the words professional and amateur in the dictionary myself, so that I could make a point that did not involve selective quoting(Matt's favorite weapon of choice)

As you can see, a professional can also be someone who is a 'skilled practitioner' or an expert. This definition does not require them to make profit off of their trade, showing the stiltedness of Matt's using it as an example. (Don't selectively quote that, Matt, wait for my summary point below) Many 100% Free MUDs are ran by "professional staff" - staff that act professionally and with expert MUDing skill.

As you can see, amateur can also have nothing to do with money. Infact, by certain usages of this definition, one could be amateur even if one made a profit off of their trade. One could assume that there are for-profit MUDs out there that are amateur, as some staff either abuse players or break laws.

My point? You cannot use your stilted and selectively quoting analogy to argue with devising objective phrases to put MUDs into for an improving listing at TMS. You cannot compare the above terms to one of the terms I threw out, which was "free-to-play, pay-for-perks". My term is specific and without contradicting meanings to its potential usage on this site.

I've quoted all of the definitions of free that involve payment and money, since that is the phrase we are arguing about. 'Without Charge'.

This one is fairly straightforward also. The relevant definitions to MUDing are bolded, so that we can stay on task.

IRE is, indeed, "No Charge" to "Occupy one's self with recreation" or "take part in the game". IRE is, by definition, "Free-to-Play". So we go on.

Alright, so we seperate the more useful definitions of "to pay" with bolding, leaving the rest there so you can see I am not selectively quoting. Paying appears to(gasp) infer that one often-times gives money in exchange for goods or services.

There we go - a little less commonly used word, but one can see that the only version of 'perk' that my phrase could be used for is the bolded noun above. This word is used to example a real job, and not a game - however, 'incidental benefits' describes the 'perk' we've been using as well, so the definition is still completely valid, and there is not another that contradicts it(as 'professional' and 'amateur' contradict themselves, making them unreliable objective phrases).

So again, it -is- true that IRE is "Free-to-Play", or "No Charge" to "Occupy one's self with recreation" or "take part in the game".

However, now we can also see that IRE games also require that you "give money in exchange for goods and services rendered", where those services are "incidental benefits". They do indeed require that you "Pay-for-Perks". You cannot argue that you can get the same perks without paying, because without a "perk" market, bought by cold hard cash, there would not be ways to barter for it. In reality, ingame bartering for credits is nothing more than selling ingame gold/items for the money that pays IRE for credits. Credits are not renewable or re-usable, so it is really an ooc trade for cash-to-ingame items/gold.

----

Was this message necessary? No. It is extremely long, and rather ridiculous. I hope it goes to show that the words 'professional' and 'amateur' should never be used when comparing MUDs or Admins based on profit-only reasons. It also goes to show that the phrase "Free-to-Play, Pay-for-Perks" is an objective phrase whose goal is to map out specifically what one can expect from an IRE game - you can play for free, but payment must be made to receive some of the ingame perks. Other games that fall into other classifications would likewise need other terms, and I suggested a couple back on Page 9(that only one person responded to, I believe).

Summary: Matt. Continue to try to twist words and skirt around arguments so that you can stay in this thread without admitting that you only care about TMS possibly making this positive change because you are afraid it might affect(on a small level) your incoming player flux. Just be aware that our arguments will continue to remind people here of the topic at hand, and that it is unlikely that anyone not from IRE will come to support your side of the argument.

Which leads me back to asking one more time if Syno would be willing to make a comment on any of this. A multi-thread argument 50some pages long deserves at least a glimpse into the owner's thoughts - preferrably a glimpse that came from him and not an ambitious business-man who shows little concern for the rest of the MUDing Community.

01-18-2006, 04:13 PM	#161
DonathinFrye Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Name: Donathin Frye Location: Columbus, OH Home MUD: Optional Realities Home MUD: Atonement RPI Home MUD: Project Redshift Posts: 510	I'll make this a long one, even for me, in an effort to openly show that these arguments you support of Matt's are both empty and stilted. I decided to look up the words professional and amateur in the dictionary myself, so that I could make a point that did not involve selective quoting(Matt's favorite weapon of choice) As you can see, a professional can also be someone who is a 'skilled practitioner' or an expert. This definition does not require them to make profit off of their trade, showing the stiltedness of Matt's using it as an example. (Don't selectively quote that, Matt, wait for my summary point below) Many 100% Free MUDs are ran by "professional staff" - staff that act professionally and with expert MUDing skill. As you can see, amateur can also have nothing to do with money. Infact, by certain usages of this definition, one could be amateur even if one made a profit off of their trade. One could assume that there are for-profit MUDs out there that are amateur, as some staff either abuse players or break laws. My point? You cannot use your stilted and selectively quoting analogy to argue with devising objective phrases to put MUDs into for an improving listing at TMS. You cannot compare the above terms to one of the terms I threw out, which was "free-to-play, pay-for-perks". My term is specific and without contradicting meanings to its potential usage on this site. I've quoted all of the definitions of free that involve payment and money, since that is the phrase we are arguing about. 'Without Charge'. This one is fairly straightforward also. The relevant definitions to MUDing are bolded, so that we can stay on task. IRE is, indeed, "No Charge" to "Occupy one's self with recreation" or "take part in the game". IRE is, by definition, "Free-to-Play". So we go on. Alright, so we seperate the more useful definitions of "to pay" with bolding, leaving the rest there so you can see I am not selectively quoting. Paying appears to(gasp) infer that one often-times gives money in exchange for goods or services. There we go - a little less commonly used word, but one can see that the only version of 'perk' that my phrase could be used for is the bolded noun above. This word is used to example a real job, and not a game - however, 'incidental benefits' describes the 'perk' we've been using as well, so the definition is still completely valid, and there is not another that contradicts it(as 'professional' and 'amateur' contradict themselves, making them unreliable objective phrases). So again, it -is- true that IRE is "Free-to-Play", or "No Charge" to "Occupy one's self with recreation" or "take part in the game". However, now we can also see that IRE games also require that you "give money in exchange for goods and services rendered", where those services are "incidental benefits". They do indeed require that you "Pay-for-Perks". You cannot argue that you can get the same perks without paying, because without a "perk" market, bought by cold hard cash, there would not be ways to barter for it. In reality, ingame bartering for credits is nothing more than selling ingame gold/items for the money that pays IRE for credits. Credits are not renewable or re-usable, so it is really an ooc trade for cash-to-ingame items/gold. ---- Was this message necessary? No. It is extremely long, and rather ridiculous. I hope it goes to show that the words 'professional' and 'amateur' should never be used when comparing MUDs or Admins based on profit-only reasons. It also goes to show that the phrase "Free-to-Play, Pay-for-Perks" is an objective phrase whose goal is to map out specifically what one can expect from an IRE game - you can play for free, but payment must be made to receive some of the ingame perks. Other games that fall into other classifications would likewise need other terms, and I suggested a couple back on Page 9(that only one person responded to, I believe). Summary: Matt. Continue to try to twist words and skirt around arguments so that you can stay in this thread without admitting that you only care about TMS possibly making this positive change because you are afraid it might affect(on a small level) your incoming player flux. Just be aware that our arguments will continue to remind people here of the topic at hand, and that it is unlikely that anyone not from IRE will come to support your side of the argument. Which leads me back to asking one more time if Syno would be willing to make a comment on any of this. A multi-thread argument 50some pages long deserves at least a glimpse into the owner's thoughts - preferrably a glimpse that came from him and not an ambitious business-man who shows little concern for the rest of the MUDing Community.