Top Mud Sites Forum - View Single Post - Some direct questions for Synozeer and Medievia

06-03-2005, 10:24 AM

I had declined to comment thus far assuming that this, as always, would just end in a mindless bash. It obviously has, but I still couldn't stop myself from "beating a dead horse", it just needed to be said.

Let us get some facts straight before we start:

1] Unless Medievia have changed their code, I am NOT a supporter. I'm unsure where my opinion would lie if they have decided to replace their code as AFAIK the case law is nil on the subject. Even the link from Kavir about IP states that.

2] I am not a player of any games of the_logos, nor do I know Mr. Mihaly in any way other than his posts in this and other various forums.

3] I have been around the mudding community for quite a while, and this community in particular for longer than is apparent.

4] I agree with Kavir on quite a few things he says, though I disagree with his actions of late, on these forums. This is actually though symptomatic of a bigger problem in the mud community. This appears to happen over time to anybody who deals with the mud community for a long time.

"Those expressing [opinion] are [more/less]..."
-------------
This argument has been used on both sides of the table, using an appeal to popularity to gain respect for your cause proves nothing, and contributes nothing to the discussion.

"The fact that a larger number of independent opinions are to the contrary suggests that there is significant disapproval of Synozeer's decision."

Also due to the amount of emotion fired into attacking anyone with a viewpoint that differs from the political norm of these boards, many people (myself included) decide not to post in order to avoid a barrage of attacks, so I would have to say in this argument the sample of people is unrepresentative of the whole.

"[the_logos/kavir] is...."
-------------
For people whom i've seen, many times, call "LOGICAL FALLACY!" on each other I am amazed at the amount of personal attacks that go into each response, or the amount of logical fallacies that get thrown around. Yes, in debates where you are not searching for truth or proving a truth the art of sneaking in a fallacy works. With topics like this, it should not.

There is a reason that people don't "stop, read, contribute" here anymore. In my opinion, I would hasten to believe that it was because of the hostile atmosphere, and lack of signal.

"All the arguments are caused by the_logos!? Burn him!"
--------------
This is obviously not true, as evinced from this thread itself. [code] 1.Matt said he was immensely glad that synozeer wasn't singling out a mud
2.Kavir replied about blatant IP theft with his slippery pedophilia comment.
3.Kopri stated that it would appear to others that Kavir was blowing things out of proportion.
4.Matt replied, stating everyone knows his opinion, then saying that if he didn't like Synozeer's ruling he didn't have to stay. *
5.Kavir attacked Matt saying he was unwelcome and only was allowed around due to paying Synozeer.[/quote]
--------------
Anyone that attempts to argue a side that contrasts Kavir, and continues to do so is personally attacked, then everyone who feels froggy leaps into mindless "Me too." attacks. If the people here don't see this as detrimental then there is a large problem, though it seems from other posts that people realize it IS a detriment but can't force themselves not to attack "The next victim".

I saw really good arguments over the past couple of months ruined by attacking the person. Changing the subject and calling people mindless isn't an effective argument tool, but it has become one in these forums.

How has it become one?

People are unwilling to waste there time posting if their point is ignored in lieu of a "considering you apparently don't have any opinions of your own?"! This is an amazing hypocrisy, considering the majority of people on the anti-Med side of the argument have posted little to nothing of substance, which isn't saying opposite sides have posted substance. [NOTE: This is still in regards to THESE FORUMS, I am quite aware of everything Anti-Med]

Also the people on this board attempt to take a "For us - Or against us" stance. Anyone who disagrees with a statement is "Anti"-their issue, or "Pro"-their antagonist. This is obviously not logical and just another symptom of the society that has formed on these forums. Which is one thing I do agree with Matt on: his post about how dissenting opinions are treated in these forums.

In fact, alot of what I have seen has been attacks on the_logos, "You are mindless", attacks on people as parents, and comments about harming families. Even comparing Matt to Derek Smart, which shows a lack of knowledge. (all of these can be found in the last months threads)

I'm not asking you to attempt to coerce me with posts that "Prove Matt is the devil!#!!", i've seen him in action sometimes. Though other times it appears paranoia sets in and other people imagine things. Discounting someone because their opinion differs from yours on a regular basis is foolishness.

[In my own personal opinion, and with no relevance on this letter, I believe the FanBoy/Jerk apply just as much to Kavir and most others on -these forums-.]

"IRE is immoral"/"Code theft"
-------------
I don't know where this argument came in. I believe this was mainly due to people jumping in a conversation to "Me too" it, without double-checking their facts. IRE is well respected and as far as I know has done nothing immoral or illegal, regardless of an individuals personal opinion.

(Note: Subjectively this could be argued, some people tend to equate taking money for a service that they think should be free as immoral.)

Yui Unifex
-------------
I have seen some of the best retorts/arguments/statements/assertions come from this persons mouth, although instead of building fortresses of these stones that are put forth by Yui, they are only smashed down by "Shut up, dummy" statements. This is not saying that Yui supports me or my opinions, I just respect Yui.

Anyways, I had more to post but i've decided to take my kids to the beach instead.

Kaylus

06-03-2005, 10:24 AM	#36
kaylus1 Posts: n/a	I had declined to comment thus far assuming that this, as always, would just end in a mindless bash. It obviously has, but I still couldn't stop myself from "beating a dead horse", it just needed to be said. Let us get some facts straight before we start: 1] Unless Medievia have changed their code, I am NOT a supporter. I'm unsure where my opinion would lie if they have decided to replace their code as AFAIK the case law is nil on the subject. Even the link from Kavir about IP states that. 2] I am not a player of any games of the_logos, nor do I know Mr. Mihaly in any way other than his posts in this and other various forums. 3] I have been around the mudding community for quite a while, and this community in particular for longer than is apparent. 4] I agree with Kavir on quite a few things he says, though I disagree with his actions of late, on these forums. This is actually though symptomatic of a bigger problem in the mud community. This appears to happen over time to anybody who deals with the mud community for a long time. "Those expressing [opinion] are [more/less]..." ------------- This argument has been used on both sides of the table, using an appeal to popularity to gain respect for your cause proves nothing, and contributes nothing to the discussion. "The fact that a larger number of independent opinions are to the contrary suggests that there is significant disapproval of Synozeer's decision." Also due to the amount of emotion fired into attacking anyone with a viewpoint that differs from the political norm of these boards, many people (myself included) decide not to post in order to avoid a barrage of attacks, so I would have to say in this argument the sample of people is unrepresentative of the whole. "[the_logos/kavir] is...." ------------- For people whom i've seen, many times, call "LOGICAL FALLACY!" on each other I am amazed at the amount of personal attacks that go into each response, or the amount of logical fallacies that get thrown around. Yes, in debates where you are not searching for truth or proving a truth the art of sneaking in a fallacy works. With topics like this, it should not. There is a reason that people don't "stop, read, contribute" here anymore. In my opinion, I would hasten to believe that it was because of the hostile atmosphere, and lack of signal. "All the arguments are caused by the_logos!? Burn him!" -------------- This is obviously not true, as evinced from this thread itself. [code] 1.Matt said he was immensely glad that synozeer wasn't singling out a mud 2.Kavir replied about blatant IP theft with his slippery pedophilia comment. 3.Kopri stated that it would appear to others that Kavir was blowing things out of proportion. 4.Matt replied, stating everyone knows his opinion, then saying that if he didn't like Synozeer's ruling he didn't have to stay. * 5.Kavir attacked Matt saying he was unwelcome and only was allowed around due to paying Synozeer.[/quote] -------------- Anyone that attempts to argue a side that contrasts Kavir, and continues to do so is personally attacked, then everyone who feels froggy leaps into mindless "Me too." attacks. If the people here don't see this as detrimental then there is a large problem, though it seems from other posts that people realize it IS a detriment but can't force themselves not to attack "The next victim". I saw really good arguments over the past couple of months ruined by attacking the person. Changing the subject and calling people mindless isn't an effective argument tool, but it has become one in these forums. How has it become one? People are unwilling to waste there time posting if their point is ignored in lieu of a "considering you apparently don't have any opinions of your own?"! This is an amazing hypocrisy, considering the majority of people on the anti-Med side of the argument have posted little to nothing of substance, which isn't saying opposite sides have posted substance. [NOTE: This is still in regards to THESE FORUMS, I am quite aware of everything Anti-Med] Also the people on this board attempt to take a "For us - Or against us" stance. Anyone who disagrees with a statement is "Anti"-their issue, or "Pro"-their antagonist. This is obviously not logical and just another symptom of the society that has formed on these forums. Which is one thing I do agree with Matt on: his post about how dissenting opinions are treated in these forums. In fact, alot of what I have seen has been attacks on the_logos, "You are mindless", attacks on people as parents, and comments about harming families. Even comparing Matt to Derek Smart, which shows a lack of knowledge. (all of these can be found in the last months threads) I'm not asking you to attempt to coerce me with posts that "Prove Matt is the devil!#!!", i've seen him in action sometimes. Though other times it appears paranoia sets in and other people imagine things. Discounting someone because their opinion differs from yours on a regular basis is foolishness. [In my own personal opinion, and with no relevance on this letter, I believe the FanBoy/Jerk apply just as much to Kavir and most others on -these forums-.] "IRE is immoral"/"Code theft" ------------- I don't know where this argument came in. I believe this was mainly due to people jumping in a conversation to "Me too" it, without double-checking their facts. IRE is well respected and as far as I know has done nothing immoral or illegal, regardless of an individuals personal opinion. (Note: Subjectively this could be argued, some people tend to equate taking money for a service that they think should be free as immoral.) Yui Unifex ------------- I have seen some of the best retorts/arguments/statements/assertions come from this persons mouth, although instead of building fortresses of these stones that are put forth by Yui, they are only smashed down by "Shut up, dummy" statements. This is not saying that Yui supports me or my opinions, I just respect Yui. Anyways, I had more to post but i've decided to take my kids to the beach instead. Kaylus