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Atyreus · 03-01-2004, 02:08 PM

I think this represents a design flaw rather than a hide-the-numbers vs. show-the-numbers issue. If all your players (at least within certain class or character type groupings) are trying to collect the same identical kit, then there's probably a real lack of variety in your game's high-end gear.

Unless the game only attracts number-crunching minmaxxers, the players who care about that sort of thing will care, whether the numbers are hidden or not. Just like the players who really obsess about the tiniest variations in armor/weapon performance, will figure out those variations (right down to being able to substitute fairly accurate numerical representations of that performance) even if they never get to see the numbers or formulas involved.

Again, I would argue that this is more indicative of basic design flaws, rather than a matter of whether the players are cognizant of the numbers involved or not. If you want to prevent this sort of character mega-maxxing, it will take more than just hiding the numbers. Hiding the numbers may drive away a certain type player that feels more comfortable being spoon-fed those numbers, but if your game allows players to follow a certain formula to uber-mortaldom, its a hands-down guarantee that they will do it with or without the numbers laid out before them. Most will not even have to figure things out for themselves because they will only need to look at how their fellow power gamers are kitted up.

Well, granted, if you want the power of some items to be a secret, probably you shouldn't just hand out the numbers to them. On the other hand, again your clever, number-obsessed players will figure out soon enough that none of the game's l33t mastorz of doom ever seem to be interested in those massive damage protecting magickal resistant pair of flying boots and will conclude that they must in fact be crap.

I guess the theme I'm harping here is that there really is no hiding the numbers from the players. The may not know the actual numerical values involved, but the ones who care will certainly figure out relative values quickly enough and then pass on those values to their fellow players who are as number obsessed but perhaps a bit less inclined to figure everything out for themselves.

They probably wouldn't. So, if such discovery is meant to be an important part of gameplay, maybe it is worth hiding the numbers, keeping in mind that you will always have some players who have an absolutely freakish talent for figuring these things out and that they are unlikely to keep such knowledge to themselves for long.

I think most RPIs are designed on the assumption that their players aren't (or shouldn't be) interested in numbers. At the same time, I somewhat suspect that number hiding is just another one of those things like OOC channels and no color text, that is a standard in many RPIs simply because it is a standard in many RPIs, not because its presence would actually harm the RPI environment. Indeed, one could make an argument that an advantage to allowing players to, say, see the numerical values for their stats is that these values would then be very obviously OOC. My own experience has been that in RP enforced settings, less rp-conscientious players are much more likely to make an ostensibly IC statement like "I have a very high agility" than they would something like "My agility score is 9." In the first case, the very fact that they are given an english interpretation of the stat in question will lead some to conclude that it is an appropriate IC reference even when it might not be.

03-01-2004, 02:08 PM	#27
Atyreus Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Home MUD: The Dreaming City Posts: 60	I think this represents a design flaw rather than a hide-the-numbers vs. show-the-numbers issue. If all your players (at least within certain class or character type groupings) are trying to collect the same identical kit, then there's probably a real lack of variety in your game's high-end gear. Unless the game only attracts number-crunching minmaxxers, the players who care about that sort of thing will care, whether the numbers are hidden or not. Just like the players who really obsess about the tiniest variations in armor/weapon performance, will figure out those variations (right down to being able to substitute fairly accurate numerical representations of that performance) even if they never get to see the numbers or formulas involved. Again, I would argue that this is more indicative of basic design flaws, rather than a matter of whether the players are cognizant of the numbers involved or not. If you want to prevent this sort of character mega-maxxing, it will take more than just hiding the numbers. Hiding the numbers may drive away a certain type player that feels more comfortable being spoon-fed those numbers, but if your game allows players to follow a certain formula to uber-mortaldom, its a hands-down guarantee that they will do it with or without the numbers laid out before them. Most will not even have to figure things out for themselves because they will only need to look at how their fellow power gamers are kitted up. Well, granted, if you want the power of some items to be a secret, probably you shouldn't just hand out the numbers to them. On the other hand, again your clever, number-obsessed players will figure out soon enough that none of the game's l33t mastorz of doom ever seem to be interested in those massive damage protecting magickal resistant pair of flying boots and will conclude that they must in fact be crap. I guess the theme I'm harping here is that there really is no hiding the numbers from the players. The may not know the actual numerical values involved, but the ones who care will certainly figure out relative values quickly enough and then pass on those values to their fellow players who are as number obsessed but perhaps a bit less inclined to figure everything out for themselves. They probably wouldn't. So, if such discovery is meant to be an important part of gameplay, maybe it is worth hiding the numbers, keeping in mind that you will always have some players who have an absolutely freakish talent for figuring these things out and that they are unlikely to keep such knowledge to themselves for long. I think most RPIs are designed on the assumption that their players aren't (or shouldn't be) interested in numbers. At the same time, I somewhat suspect that number hiding is just another one of those things like OOC channels and no color text, that is a standard in many RPIs simply because it is a standard in many RPIs, not because its presence would actually harm the RPI environment. Indeed, one could make an argument that an advantage to allowing players to, say, see the numerical values for their stats is that these values would then be very obviously OOC. My own experience has been that in RP enforced settings, less rp-conscientious players are much more likely to make an ostensibly IC statement like "I have a very high agility" than they would something like "My agility score is 9." In the first case, the very fact that they are given an english interpretation of the stat in question will lead some to conclude that it is an appropriate IC reference even when it might not be.