[LoD]

Yes, it does not inherently make a game better or worse for RP. We agree, therefore I don't believe you need to make this point in future replies, at least not to me.

The choice of system can, however, create more "issues staying IC." than the other. If I were to trick someone into following me into a dangerous part of town for the purposes of mugging and/or murder, and the victim was killed during the process, them returning to the game world as the same entity would cause an issue that would not be present within a permanent death system.

The issue would be that the player knows my character to be a liar and a murderer. I knows his character to have been deceived and murdered by my character. Whether the murdered character would be allowed to retain IC knowledge of the event would be up to the particular system in place, but regardless of that decision, the OOC temptation exists for that murdered character to remember the actions and intent of his murderer.

The issue comes into play when those two characters interact again. Does the murdered victim allow themselves to be duped and murdered anew? Or will they invent some excuse or play on some coincidental distrust of the murderer that wasn't present in the first scenario? Whether the player succumbs to his/her bias is irrelevant to the fact that the OOC obstacle exists now where it would not exist in a permanent death situation.

I agree that we aren't after complete realism, but that doesn't mean certain aspects that mimic reality or contain aspects of reality aren't welcome or desired. And if you understand the point I am trying to make, then I don't see any reason to quibble over the absurdity of the example.

I would completely disagree with you on this point. It's been my observation in 18 years of playing a permanent death mud that players usually do not end up "doing the same thing they were doing before the death." If this is what you're basing the bulk of your argument upon, which it seems to be, then you might benefit from some more exposure to a game like Armageddon. New characters are -very- new. They aren't simply the same character with a different description and background -- they are often completely different personas with completely different goals. They could have completely different sets of morals, personality traits, likes and dislikes, family relationships, social skills, and values.

I wasn't comparing permadeath games to dying in real life, I was comparing the effect upon one's judgments and actions when they are faced with varied level of consequence. Losing $20 is a consequence. Losing your life is a consequence. How someone reacts to both will result in a completely different range of emotions, decisions, and actions on the part of the participant.

They don't "just start over" -- it's a completely new person. I had a character for 2 RL years on Armageddon somewhat recently, and during that two years they had collected experiences, knowledge of the game's geography, flora, fauna, and political innerworkings, he had amassed a fair amount of martial knowledge and ability, he had a family with children, and he had made many friends and enemies from which he was able to recall memories, both happy and sad, across many IC years of interaction.

The next character had none of these things. None of these experiences. None of these discoveries. None of this information. None of these memories. It's like claiming that after 2 years spent writing a unique novel, it's not much different from just starting over with blank paper. It's -very- different.

I agree that there are unique circumstances inherent in a non-permanent death mud; circumstances that might present issues for the character that would not be found in a permanent death mud. And isn't that the whole point that we've been trying to make? There are issues inherent in each system that are both unique and exclusive to that system of game play -- and one of those unique and exclusive features of a permanent death world is that you don't have to deal with the OOC and IC obstacles that come along with a non-permadeath system.

It creates a unique and exclusive situation that is completely different from the experience you receive elsewhere, and that's the entire point people are trying to make. Some people prefer the experience offered within a permadeath system for the many reasons listed in this entire thread.

We don't have to defend whatever game system we enjoy, we just have to agree that there are differences.

-LoD