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Threshold · 04-28-2008, 09:53 PM

Wonderful. This tells me I am discussing an interesting topic with someone who really wants to dive into the issue and rip it apart together with other equally interested folks. I like that.

Actually, given that example, the permadeath mud will create more "issues staying IC." Because what if that person you mugged and killed is so bitter, they make a new character, build themselves up, and then go kill you. That is HUGELY OOC. At least in a non permadeath mud, their efforts to seek out revenge are still 100% IC.

Mina and Disillusionist have already made this point, but I think it is such a good one I am going to reiterate it. I think relying on realism can actually be a pretty bad crutch. I mean how much of a stretch is it to RP things that are similar to reality? Not that hard, honestly. The more different a game world is from our RL reality just ramps up the challenge, RP wise.

Then there is the fact that reality really isn't that much fun as a game. If I want to play something realistic, I already have that game: its called Real Life. The graphics are awesome and the gameplay feature variety is limitless. Oh, and the sex is tons better.

But you did indeed compare permadeath to dying in real life. That is explicitly what you did.

And honestly, the possibility of winning $20 (or 2000 gold, or whatever) on a permadeath mud might actually be worth the risk of just dying and remaking a new character. When everyone dies and just starts over, and the point of the game is just roleplay anyway, dying just isn't as big of a deal anymore.

When the penalty is the same across the board, that pretty much normalizes the penalty. As long as permadeath affects everyone equally, the long term impact is not much greater than a penalty death.

Penalties in hockey are far more "severe" than penalties in (American) football. You actually lose a player for a few minutes! But this doesn't mean getting penalties is more "exciting" in hockey. Penalties affect everyone equally, so in the long run the emotional impact is the pretty much the same in either sport.

I have played Armaggeddon, and I have had hundreds of friends and customers that played Armaggeddon and other AFS muds. My own experience, and the experiences they share with me, all indicate that most people pretty much hang out with the same friends and the same cliques no matter how many times they die. I can understand this, as it does kinda make sense. You make friends and you enjoy RPing with certain people, so you gravitate together. It is incredibly commonplace on *ALL* RP oriented games for people who like each other OOC, or who respect each other's RP ability, to plan new character concepts together, and design interesting plot lines for their characters so they are able to play together. I actually don't think this is a bad thing. But it is indeed evidence that permadeath really isn't quite as permanent as one might think.

(I have snipped a section here that analyzes what types of games gain the most excitment from permadeath. I am going to make a new thread for that.)

Also, as I already noted in a previous post, permadeath can actually make conflict oriented RP situations EASIER and LESS TENSE on a permadeath mud, because you know one of two things will happen:

1) You win the conflict. Hooray. Your enemies are vanquished and destroyed, and can never seek revenge against you. You don't have to watch your back, because they can never again torment you.

2) You lose the conflict. Oh well! Reroll! And your new character will never have to suffer the consequences of your RP decisions, you won't have to worry about those same enemies harboring a grudge, and you will never be "shamed" by society for any heretical, blasphemous, treasonous, deceitful, or other "bad" things you did.

When victory is absolute, both sides of the conflict come out of it with a far greater condition of safety. The long term impact of their RP decisions is much less.

I am not saying permadeath is always less exciting. I am well aware and acknowledge that there are a lot of situations where permadeath makes a situation more exciting and tense. But I am simply raising the point that there are as many situations where the opposite is true.

But if the point of the game is to build up those experiences, then it really isn't very different at all. Role play experiences are not linear. As long as you are having role play experiences, you are at the pinnacle of "fun" for that type of game. In a hack-n-slash game, a lot of the fun is linear. If you are bored with the low or mid-level gameplay, then dying permanently or starting over would be a HUGE issue. You would have a lot of grinding ahead of you just to get back to the type of fun you actually want to have (high level or "end game" content). But when the main purpose of the game is role playing, you can get right back to that same type of fun immediately upon re-entry into the game world with a new character. Dying and rerolling is not actually a setback.

Also, that novel writing example actually makes my point. Writing the last chapter of one novel is not terribly different from writing the first chapter of a new one. The discipline is the same. The effort is pretty much the same. You still have to concentrate on word craft and story and characters. This makes me think about the Authors Notes that Piers Anthony puts in the back of a lot of his books. In them, he explains that he generally writes multiple books at the same time. He will be working on the first draft of one book, while also working on the final draft of another, or the beginning of one while finishing the end of another. The different stages of writing the books are not that different. They are the same type of work that require the same type of imagination, creativity, and skill.

I don't write novels, but I do make text games, and that is certainly writing. Building a zone is building a zone. The last room of one zone and the first room of another zone are not significantly different as far as the work experience. I still have to put the same effort, the same thought, and the same creativity into both.

But you have just as many different OOC/IC issues to deal with. Neither system has more or less OOC/IC issues.

I wish that were true, but there is a certain segment of the population that INSISTS permadeath is inherently superior from a role play perspective. I suspect you do not subscribe to this belief, and I definitely appreciate that. I think it makes it possible for us to discuss some of the more interesting aspects of permadeath and non-permadeath.

04-28-2008, 09:53 PM	#98
Threshold Legend Join Date: Apr 2002 Home MUD: Threshold RPG Posts: 1,260	Re: How many muds have permadeath? Wonderful. This tells me I am discussing an interesting topic with someone who really wants to dive into the issue and rip it apart together with other equally interested folks. I like that. Actually, given that example, the permadeath mud will create more "issues staying IC." Because what if that person you mugged and killed is so bitter, they make a new character, build themselves up, and then go kill you. That is HUGELY OOC. At least in a non permadeath mud, their efforts to seek out revenge are still 100% IC. Mina and Disillusionist have already made this point, but I think it is such a good one I am going to reiterate it. I think relying on realism can actually be a pretty bad crutch. I mean how much of a stretch is it to RP things that are similar to reality? Not that hard, honestly. The more different a game world is from our RL reality just ramps up the challenge, RP wise. Then there is the fact that reality really isn't that much fun as a game. If I want to play something realistic, I already have that game: its called Real Life. The graphics are awesome and the gameplay feature variety is limitless. Oh, and the sex is tons better. But you did indeed compare permadeath to dying in real life. That is explicitly what you did. And honestly, the possibility of winning $20 (or 2000 gold, or whatever) on a permadeath mud might actually be worth the risk of just dying and remaking a new character. When everyone dies and just starts over, and the point of the game is just roleplay anyway, dying just isn't as big of a deal anymore. When the penalty is the same across the board, that pretty much normalizes the penalty. As long as permadeath affects everyone equally, the long term impact is not much greater than a penalty death. Penalties in hockey are far more "severe" than penalties in (American) football. You actually lose a player for a few minutes! But this doesn't mean getting penalties is more "exciting" in hockey. Penalties affect everyone equally, so in the long run the emotional impact is the pretty much the same in either sport. I have played Armaggeddon, and I have had hundreds of friends and customers that played Armaggeddon and other AFS muds. My own experience, and the experiences they share with me, all indicate that most people pretty much hang out with the same friends and the same cliques no matter how many times they die. I can understand this, as it does kinda make sense. You make friends and you enjoy RPing with certain people, so you gravitate together. It is incredibly commonplace on ALL RP oriented games for people who like each other OOC, or who respect each other's RP ability, to plan new character concepts together, and design interesting plot lines for their characters so they are able to play together. I actually don't think this is a bad thing. But it is indeed evidence that permadeath really isn't quite as permanent as one might think. (I have snipped a section here that analyzes what types of games gain the most excitment from permadeath. I am going to make a new thread for that.) Also, as I already noted in a previous post, permadeath can actually make conflict oriented RP situations EASIER and LESS TENSE on a permadeath mud, because you know one of two things will happen: 1) You win the conflict. Hooray. Your enemies are vanquished and destroyed, and can never seek revenge against you. You don't have to watch your back, because they can never again torment you. 2) You lose the conflict. Oh well! Reroll! And your new character will never have to suffer the consequences of your RP decisions, you won't have to worry about those same enemies harboring a grudge, and you will never be "shamed" by society for any heretical, blasphemous, treasonous, deceitful, or other "bad" things you did. When victory is absolute, both sides of the conflict come out of it with a far greater condition of safety. The long term impact of their RP decisions is much less. I am not saying permadeath is always less exciting. I am well aware and acknowledge that there are a lot of situations where permadeath makes a situation more exciting and tense. But I am simply raising the point that there are as many situations where the opposite is true. But if the point of the game is to build up those experiences, then it really isn't very different at all. Role play experiences are not linear. As long as you are having role play experiences, you are at the pinnacle of "fun" for that type of game. In a hack-n-slash game, a lot of the fun is linear. If you are bored with the low or mid-level gameplay, then dying permanently or starting over would be a HUGE issue. You would have a lot of grinding ahead of you just to get back to the type of fun you actually want to have (high level or "end game" content). But when the main purpose of the game is role playing, you can get right back to that same type of fun immediately upon re-entry into the game world with a new character. Dying and rerolling is not actually a setback. Also, that novel writing example actually makes my point. Writing the last chapter of one novel is not terribly different from writing the first chapter of a new one. The discipline is the same. The effort is pretty much the same. You still have to concentrate on word craft and story and characters. This makes me think about the Authors Notes that Piers Anthony puts in the back of a lot of his books. In them, he explains that he generally writes multiple books at the same time. He will be working on the first draft of one book, while also working on the final draft of another, or the beginning of one while finishing the end of another. The different stages of writing the books are not that different. They are the same type of work that require the same type of imagination, creativity, and skill. I don't write novels, but I do make text games, and that is certainly writing. Building a zone is building a zone. The last room of one zone and the first room of another zone are not significantly different as far as the work experience. I still have to put the same effort, the same thought, and the same creativity into both. But you have just as many different OOC/IC issues to deal with. Neither system has more or less OOC/IC issues. I wish that were true, but there is a certain segment of the population that INSISTS permadeath is inherently superior from a role play perspective. I suspect you do not subscribe to this belief, and I definitely appreciate that. I think it makes it possible for us to discuss some of the more interesting aspects of permadeath and non-permadeath.