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Kiev · 07-24-2006, 07:13 AM

I'd be happy to offer some suggestions, NotL33T, though as Fern wrote, some things sound a lot better when you're tossing ideas about than when it comes time for implementation.

I'm a big fan of subtle magic. When spells and magical items are sufficiently rare and subdued it creates an RP atmosphere I find desirable, one of true appreciation and respect for skilled casters and those in possession of unusual items. It seems that you feel the same way, so let's talk about the biggest obstacles to this and how to avoid them.

Perhaps most important is the question of balance. Most muds have classes that are clearly distinguishable from one another, typically in some combination of fighting, magic, and stealth. Usually it's pretty clear to experienced players which classes have advantages in which areas - for instance, pk.

A quick but necessary aside: I've played a fair number of games, but for this topic I'll be drawing on my time in DartMud. This is a skill-based game: there are no levels, and exp is gained neither by killing nor by RP. There is no exp in the classical sense, simply skill points that can be gained by practicing the skill in question. For mages this means practicing spells in different mediums, crafters craft things of varying complexity, etc. Each skill is practiced differently and learning them all can be a daunting task, but also rewarding. It also means that a single character could learn skills from all the traditional classes - there is no arbitrary distinction. To avoid having every character "maxed out" there is skill opposition, so that it is in fact harder for a fighter to learn magic, but not impossible.

In terms of the system I've described, it isn't necessary to balance the other classes with mages - which is ultimately a losing proposition. I would use a system in which anyone could learn magic, and reward players who focus on it. This serves two purposes: the majority of players can use magic without worrying about being underpowered, and it allows people who want to focus exclusively on magic - knowing full-well they won't be on par with fighters - to do so and to derive pleasure from it in the way that some players enjoy so much (in the same sense that there are players of disadvantaged classes/races in any mud). I suspect most of us derive great satisfaction not simply in being 'better,' but in being unique, and in finding subtle rewards for our time and effort.

We've tossed around the idea of linking spells, but I think it would balance far better if it had been included since the mud's inception. Since you're starting fresh, a few issues I think are important:
A major pitfall of mudding is that people simply can't play all the time (though I know some of us have proven exception to that rule at one point or another). While it is very important that characters rely upon one another, don't go so far as to make it inconvenient for people to get things done in a reasonable period of time.
I'd avoid the 'npc apprentice' bit. The purpose of group casting is to a) balance powerful spells and b) increase player inter-dependency. Npc's defeat that on both counts. I'd argue that making it a challenge to cast some spells is very rewarding for players. Here's an example: one of the most powerful spells in Dartmud is 'reincarnation' (not terribly surprising in a mud with permadeath). In terms of aura (aka mana, spell points, etc) it is extremely draining not only to cast but to practice at all. When Dm was younger and mages weren't as knowledgeable or powerful, it was almost unheard of to find anyone who could skillfully cast a reinc - a fact that would probably shock a lot of our newer players, since mages these days (15 years later) are far doughtier. Back then, however, groups of mages would have to pool together to support whoever was doing the reincarnation, and far from being a grueling experience you'll often find older players who miss the 'good old days' (well, who doesn't?) when people had to rally together more to get things done. Bottom line: don't worry if it's hard at first. As my favorite comic strip dad often says, "It builds character."

You mentioned players being able to do anything with their character. Kudos. Just one caution: a lot of mudders shudder at the mention of "unrestricted PK" because it often boils down to people repeatedly killing each other and generally being complete and unfettered a-holes. Dartmud has absolutely no PK restrictions, so long as it's done purely in-game. Griefing is almost unheard of, because few people with time invested in their characters are willing to throw that away for senseless violence. Permanent death is a heavy penalty, so people RP and band together by necessity. If you don't have permadeath in your mud (and I'll warn you now, a lot of mudders can't stand the idea), then you'll have to carefully balance how griefers are dealt with by the players.

Lastly, you wrote that you'd try to balance hack'n'slashing with RP exp. There may be muds out there that have worked it out to a point acceptable to its (remaining) players, but in my opinion it's a path fraught with pitfalls. You can hardly find two mudders who'll agree on what level of RP a mud should have, let alone a fair and balanced system that involves two systems of exp rewards *and* at the same time balancing the levelling rate of two wildly different classes (if you take that route of a traditional class system). My final suggestion for you is to use a skill-based system. These can be easily tailored to fit the needs of classes and group casting, and I find that it makes more sense to practice what you use than to kill things as a raise-all. In any case, rewarding RP with exp is a blurry, imprecise, and inevitably subjective area better left alone. The best systems give players broad power to administer themselves.

I trust I've touched on some points of interest to you. After so many years of mudding, I hope my experience can be put to some good use. I've been rather liberal with my sharing of Dartmud's core concepts, so if down the line you do make use of these ideas, I'm sure the creator staff would appreciate any kind mention. Good luck, and if I happen upon your mud one day I'll give it a try. You best be nice to newbies!

07-24-2006, 07:13 AM	#5
Kiev New Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 4	I'd be happy to offer some suggestions, NotL33T, though as Fern wrote, some things sound a lot better when you're tossing ideas about than when it comes time for implementation. I'm a big fan of subtle magic. When spells and magical items are sufficiently rare and subdued it creates an RP atmosphere I find desirable, one of true appreciation and respect for skilled casters and those in possession of unusual items. It seems that you feel the same way, so let's talk about the biggest obstacles to this and how to avoid them. Perhaps most important is the question of balance. Most muds have classes that are clearly distinguishable from one another, typically in some combination of fighting, magic, and stealth. Usually it's pretty clear to experienced players which classes have advantages in which areas - for instance, pk. A quick but necessary aside: I've played a fair number of games, but for this topic I'll be drawing on my time in DartMud. This is a skill-based game: there are no levels, and exp is gained neither by killing nor by RP. There is no exp in the classical sense, simply skill points that can be gained by practicing the skill in question. For mages this means practicing spells in different mediums, crafters craft things of varying complexity, etc. Each skill is practiced differently and learning them all can be a daunting task, but also rewarding. It also means that a single character could learn skills from all the traditional classes - there is no arbitrary distinction. To avoid having every character "maxed out" there is skill opposition, so that it is in fact harder for a fighter to learn magic, but not impossible. In terms of the system I've described, it isn't necessary to balance the other classes with mages - which is ultimately a losing proposition. I would use a system in which anyone could learn magic, and reward players who focus on it. This serves two purposes: the majority of players can use magic without worrying about being underpowered, and it allows people who want to focus exclusively on magic - knowing full-well they won't be on par with fighters - to do so and to derive pleasure from it in the way that some players enjoy so much (in the same sense that there are players of disadvantaged classes/races in any mud). I suspect most of us derive great satisfaction not simply in being 'better,' but in being unique, and in finding subtle rewards for our time and effort. We've tossed around the idea of linking spells, but I think it would balance far better if it had been included since the mud's inception. Since you're starting fresh, a few issues I think are important: A major pitfall of mudding is that people simply can't play all the time (though I know some of us have proven exception to that rule at one point or another). While it is very important that characters rely upon one another, don't go so far as to make it inconvenient for people to get things done in a reasonable period of time. I'd avoid the 'npc apprentice' bit. The purpose of group casting is to a) balance powerful spells and b) increase player inter-dependency. Npc's defeat that on both counts. I'd argue that making it a challenge to cast some spells is very rewarding for players. Here's an example: one of the most powerful spells in Dartmud is 'reincarnation' (not terribly surprising in a mud with permadeath). In terms of aura (aka mana, spell points, etc) it is extremely draining not only to cast but to practice at all. When Dm was younger and mages weren't as knowledgeable or powerful, it was almost unheard of to find anyone who could skillfully cast a reinc - a fact that would probably shock a lot of our newer players, since mages these days (15 years later) are far doughtier. Back then, however, groups of mages would have to pool together to support whoever was doing the reincarnation, and far from being a grueling experience you'll often find older players who miss the 'good old days' (well, who doesn't?) when people had to rally together more to get things done. Bottom line: don't worry if it's hard at first. As my favorite comic strip dad often says, "It builds character." You mentioned players being able to do anything with their character. Kudos. Just one caution: a lot of mudders shudder at the mention of "unrestricted PK" because it often boils down to people repeatedly killing each other and generally being complete and unfettered a-holes. Dartmud has absolutely no PK restrictions, so long as it's done purely in-game. Griefing is almost unheard of, because few people with time invested in their characters are willing to throw that away for senseless violence. Permanent death is a heavy penalty, so people RP and band together by necessity. If you don't have permadeath in your mud (and I'll warn you now, a lot of mudders can't stand the idea), then you'll have to carefully balance how griefers are dealt with by the players. Lastly, you wrote that you'd try to balance hack'n'slashing with RP exp. There may be muds out there that have worked it out to a point acceptable to its (remaining) players, but in my opinion it's a path fraught with pitfalls. You can hardly find two mudders who'll agree on what level of RP a mud should have, let alone a fair and balanced system that involves two systems of exp rewards and at the same time balancing the levelling rate of two wildly different classes (if you take that route of a traditional class system). My final suggestion for you is to use a skill-based system. These can be easily tailored to fit the needs of classes and group casting, and I find that it makes more sense to practice what you use than to kill things as a raise-all. In any case, rewarding RP with exp is a blurry, imprecise, and inevitably subjective area better left alone. The best systems give players broad power to administer themselves. I trust I've touched on some points of interest to you. After so many years of mudding, I hope my experience can be put to some good use. I've been rather liberal with my sharing of Dartmud's core concepts, so if down the line you do make use of these ideas, I'm sure the creator staff would appreciate any kind mention. Good luck, and if I happen upon your mud one day I'll give it a try. You best be nice to newbies!